Tier 4 Dedicated Discussion: Details

IF anything it will be Lionel or Sunset Models. MTH currently at this time has no desire to spend on O gauge tooling unless there is a real demand... such as the case with the 44 tonner and the Bachmann brought it to market first. 

Something I've wanted to see in O scale for years that now HO has already done is rotating bearing caps on locomotives. 

Will,

That is an excellent suggestion. One I would definitely like to see. This would require a power truck rework from the current design where the axles don't touch the side frames.

Mike,

Definitely all your ideas, also like the rotating bearing caps.  Would be a nice thing to add truck, walkway lights, fairly easy value add.  Also would be nice to see rotating radiator fan blades.    If you did the horizontal drive, a more details cab interior would be awesome with modern day figures.   On the trucks I would like to see the sideframes more easily movable if not in more of a correct placement for 2R scale wheels. Also, not quite as thick! 

Rubber MU and airhoses with more detailed pilots, no large opening for the lobster claw.   More road, or road number specific details.  For example on the CN units, the see through walkway to allow for snow melt.   More accurately scaled chain on handrails, on brake lines, etc. underframe piping

More accurate scaled details, horn comes to mind the present ES44, seems a bit oversized.  more accurately sized opening doors, not as thick, even some hood doors that open!  Formed etched metal steps, connecting MU and air hoses (rubber hose) and magnet in glad hands, door handle castings, scale sized lift rings

A standard main board built-in for running on DC, and DCC... Just plug in the DCC decoder with out without sound, like the 21-pin decoder , could even support a plug in DCS (PS3) capability

O scale I feel could have working brakes, both independent and train... kind of far out there... 

All those features are great but I am not willing to spend the additional money. $700 for a plastic loco is almost too much. I really wanted to buy the SD9 from 3rd rail but just could not. Try finding a used Weaver SD40-2 on line, nope. Aren't any. Atlas needs to WAKE UP.

Dick

Dick, Granted O Scale isn't HO or another scale, but typically if considered from the original design and during tooling wouldn't increase the MSRP all that much. As you point out not everyone wants these details, and that's why manufacturers all have different product lines which offer varying levels of detail and prototype accuracy.

Mike DeBerg posted:

Dick, Granted O Scale isn't HO or another scale, but typically if considered from the original design and during tooling wouldn't increase the MSRP all that much. As you point out not everyone wants these details, and that's why manufacturers all have different product lines which offer varying levels of detail and prototype accuracy.

Lionel tooled up the ES44AC and didn't make it with the ability to place the headlight in the correct prototypical (NS)windshield or (BNSF) hood mounted location. At $650 each I just couldn't purchase one knowing every single time I looked at it that would glaringly stick out. I mean why spend all that money on a set of tooling and not be able to locate the headlight in the correct location??? Not an insignificant detail on a top of the line scale model. Did save us a lot of $!

BobbyD,

Completely understand.   Manufacturers in other scales I think are held to a higher degree of accuracy, however, even then don't get it right.  Only a few manufacturers are tooling things up that way to allow for more prototypical detail on a per road name, road number basis.  let's hope we can get some advances by MTH and Lionel in this regard with a growing focus on 3RS and 2R.   Granted still the minority.

Mike DeBerg posted:

BobbyD,

Completely understand.   Manufacturers in other scales I think are held to a higher degree of accuracy, however, even then don't get it right.  Only a few manufacturers are tooling things up that way to allow for more prototypical detail on a per road name, road number basis.  let's hope we can get some advances by MTH and Lionel in this regard with a growing focus on 3RS and 2R.   Granted still the minority.

All we wanted was the headlight in the correct location No other road specific details at all 

Yeah, the headlight location especially on NS Units is a signature spotting feature.  No question.

Dick,

When the Atlas O forum was open, there was a lot of carping about price point, and I suspect that was one of the major reasons it was shut down, but let's get some perspective. Lionel's GE models have been commanding retail prices well above $1k. The new brass SD45 from Midwest has got a ticket of around $3000. Their website states that their target price for their upcoming brass Gunderson 73ft Center Partition Flat Car is $500. $700 was the price of the Overland SD40-2 models back in the 1980s. The Overland SD60s I bought in 1988, plain jane, no paint, no electronics, no headlight were $550 each and they didn't run that well. That was 30 years ago...30 years! One of the central things, if not THE central thing, you are complaining about is the decline of the American economy and the US Dollar against other nations and markets. I could get really political here, but I refuse because this is a model train forum and I want to leave politics, which now oozes through every pore of my life, despite my best efforts, out of it, but it is the oncoming 4-8-8-4, at full steam, rushing headlong into your train room (the terms Elephant and Gorilla are just overused). It is what it is. Other than refuse to participate in the market, your options are limited. It's why I tell importers (nicely) do it right the first time or don't bother because once the tooling is done, it's so very hard to get them to change it.

Now if you don't want to pay extra, okay, I understand, but the best models will always be more expensive, that's a fact. You get what you pay for, and when people start complaining that they just won't pay the prices that manufacturers feel are necessary to make a profit, then the flow of our hobby starts grinding to a halt, or you get, dare I say it, one headlight fits all! Some are satisfied with less. To each their own, really. But just to be clear, I campaigned for years, starting in 2006, to have Atlas build the Gunderson/Trinity/NSC 73ft Center Partition Flat Car. Nothing. Even after they came out with the HO version....nothing. I'm betting, part of that reason of....nothing.... had to do with people on the Atlas Forum carping about price point (back then $100-110 could have gotten it done). They also whined about the size despite the fact that many of these same people had large steam engines as well as 15 inch and 17 inch shorty passenger cars. The un-stated and under-stated, "If I won't or can't have it or don't want it, I make sure nobody else gets it either!" has always been one of the more un-nerving parts of the O Scale/O Gauge hobby. It why I'll be reserving 3 brass lumber flats for $1500, when I could have had five of them for $500 years ago.

I really want this topic to be about what we can suggest, what we can do to obtain a better model and price, unfortunately, is part of it. Oh, yes, look for bargains and discounts whenever possible, buy used if necessary. wait and save if needed, reduce expectations if required, and sell off less needed or wanted models, but one thing remains, want more...expect to pay more. As Liza Minelli once belted out, "Money makes the world go around..."

PS: Apologies to the Moderator, I didn't realize that was a no-no word. Sorry. Apologies to Will, I meant to address Dick. I have edited my post accordingly. Should have had my morning coffee before typing my post this morning. Sigh...................... 

BobbyD posted:

Mike DeBerg posted:

BobbyD,

Completely understand.   Manufacturers in other scales I think are held to a higher degree of accuracy, however, even then don't get it right.  Only a few manufacturers are tooling things up that way to allow for more prototypical detail on a per road name, road number basis.  let's hope we can get some advances by MTH and Lionel in this regard with a growing focus on 3RS and 2R.   Granted still the minority.

All we wanted was the headlight in the correct location No other road specific details at all 

I'm not sure about your wishes for "advances" in details from the likes of MTH with regards to focusing on at least 2-Rail front, which you seem to be realizing already.  See this recent MTH Asia factory tour video (link below) at the ~1 hour 15 minute mark (link skips directly to this point) where Mike Wolfe discusses their (MTH) participation (or lack there of) in the niche Marklin HO 3-Rail market and says that 2R O Scale is even more of a niche market (if you can believe it) so I wouldn't hold my breath on "advances" due to a 2 Rail-driven market coming anytime soon.  I suppose we 2-Rail guys probably need to focus our energies on cheering on the the 3RS guys for driving the more detailed models market. Go 3RS!  Go!  

https://youtu.be/dYNl1D1hdMo?t=1h15m38s

Scott K.

Totally agree.  The fact of the matter is 3RS and 2R modelers in today's world have a lot of shared interests of which would represent a fairly nice market opportunity for MTH, Lionel and others yet to really get into the O Scale marketplace. 

Well, I guess I won't comment any more. I am sorry that my comments raised so much ire. I guess I am sorry that I don't need operating windshield wipers to be happy. I am disappointed with Atlas, that was the idea behind my post. 

Dick.

Mike Caddell posted:

The Tier 4 GE and EMD locomotives are starting to appear around various systems and it begs the question: When will these locomotives be produced in O Scale and by which manufacturer? 

This is O scale.

You want modern EMD and GE units?  You've got a ways to wait.

We're still stuck on producing accurate E and F units that have been out of production for nearly 60 years. 

The O scale plastic body model makers completely skipped over the GP30 and GP35 for 25 to 30 years. 

There are still some variations of GE locos from the 1960's and 1970's that will not be massed produced in O Scale. 

You might need to have the GE ET44AC loco components built in small sections using a 3D printer with actual GE blueprints and diagrams for a data source. 

Andrew

Why would you want a Brass Center Partition Flat car. It could be made from laser cut steel or aluminum parts? 

Andrew

There is a limited number of paint schemes for the new Tier 4 locomotives. UP and NS are not using the Tier 4 locomotives for heritage or commemorative paint scheme. 

Andrew

CBQer posted:

Well, I guess I won't comment any more. I am sorry that my comments raised so much ire. I guess I am sorry that I don't need operating windshield wipers to be happy. I am disappointed with Atlas, that was the idea behind my post. 

Dick.

Dick,

I don't think anyone disagrees with you on being disappointed by Atlas, there is a tremendous opportunity for them or any manufacturer for that matter, to produce the product that people want to buy at the price they want to buy it for... Just as you aren't interested in all those additional details which will add to the models overall price, there are those that are interested and as such as asking the manufacturers to consider bringing those innovations to O Scale as they have done in other scales.  

One of the key points being made is that manufacturers like Atlas, MTH and Lionel could consider these options during their design and tooling process and likely get some more prototypical representations of the models they are producing for those that are looking for more accurate models.

Keep offering your views as they are just as important as anyone elses...

falconservice posted:

Why would you want a Brass Center Partition Flat car. It could be made from laser cut steel or aluminum parts? 

Andrew

Andrew, you bring up some greats points. 

How long have we been asking for a 73' centerbeam? Yet, Atlas really hasn't jumped at it, perhaps  because of the pricepoint concerns brought up? Likewise, MTH really hasn't stepped up their model or offered any of the other variations.   To me, Lionel seems like a company right now that could produce a decent version of this car, similar to the 89' autoracks and 86' boxcars.  Sure it wouldn't likely be the car that MMW is looking to produce, but it could be 1/5 the price with acceptable levels of detail and accuracy allowing those that want to take it up a notch to do so...

Dick,

I'll say it right here and now, I had no intention of flaming you so if you felt that was the case, I apologize without reserve. Model trains is about having fun. I think what I was trying to express was my frustration with my fellow 2 rail and 3 rail modelers who inadvertently prevent production of a model by being too highly focused on price point. I can't prove that, but I think it's true. Sure, I'm not made of money either, but I notice that HO has plenty of levels for everyone one and everyone seems satisfied. When a new product comes out in O, however, the criticism starts. Maybe it's because we're a smaller group, I don't know, but it sure is frustrating. I would like to concentrate less on price point and more on getting a better model. Price point can be negotiated over time, but once produced, it seems the quality of the model is set.

Anyway, you've got just as much say on this forum as anybody else! Don't stop now! Healthy debate is the positive way to express our concerns and solve difficulties. Model railroaders of any stripe are like family, you got to talk it out to work it out, okay?

falconservice posted:

There is a limited number of paint schemes for the new Tier 4 locomotives. UP and NS are not using the Tier 4 locomotives for heritage or commemorative paint scheme. 

Andrew

All the class 1s have them as well as at least one small mining railroad plus at least two demonstrator paint schemes. That's 9 paint schemes prototypically possible, and if it means they'll get made I don't care if Lionel slaps some Warbonnet or Pennsy paint on them.

Atlas, it looks like it is up to you to disprove the idea that you may leave the O scale market. I hope you do not. Your products hace always been top drawer. I don't like the China drive, a lot of us don't. But for the high quality models you make no one is better (look out for Sunset 3rd Rail). Do you forget the less expensive line, up to you but you better wake up, please. We like your work.

Dick

ps Atlas: call me if you want.

I would think the best chance of a good drive accurately detailed GEVO would be with Sunset as both Lionel and MTH are committed to their standard tooling and drives, Atlas is still trying to get their builder into a realistic delivery schedule for motive power. It would seem highly unlikely that a new Master line model is in the foreseeable future, no guarantees it would even be a GEVO, based on the level of detail of the Maxi-IVs I doubt any future Mline model will be as well detailed as the Trinity 5161s and 25,5K tank cars JMO  based on price point marketing , cost of assy to fully detail car. As for Sunset the lack of reservations for a 2nd gen diesel [SD 40-2] makes it more likely they will go back to first gen offerings and obviously the longer it goes before a GEVO would be offered the higher the price point bear in mind Lionel,MTH and Atlas all sell in a competitive price range Sunset has established their own niche market with much smaller runs at  higher price points.

Hibar,

As demonstrated in the discussions above, the price point argument is just a myth that has long sailed to fall off the edge of the flat earth. As for detail, we are going to see more, not less (another myth that has sailed for the same destination). Both 2 Rail and 3 Rail are demanding more and starting to get it as the shackles of the Post-War Period mentality are slowly but surely falling away in the boardrooms of Brands A, L, and M. I think Lionel and MTH are the strongest candidates for Tier 4 Locomotives as well updated Tier 3 models. It's just the reality of the shear numbers of ACe's, ES44/GEvo's, and now SD60E's both companies have been producing that lead me in that direction. Not to mention that they manage to sell out their runs almost immediately. Yep, there's a market for new and improved despite the whining of a vocal minority. Honestly, IM not so HO, Scott Mann didn't get enough reservations for the SD40-2 for 2 reasons: First, the market is now just saturated with lesser quality models that the market was willing to accept and purchase. Scott was too late to the party. Second, the SD40-2 is almost 45 years old, yep that's 45 years old folks. For current and recent prototype modelers, that's ancient technology. For many prototype modelers, the SD40-2 is a ship that has also sailed. It's not about niche, it's simply interest. Had some SD40-3 rebuilds been added in, I bet that would have carried the run. I could be wrong, but in the waning days of 2017, I really don't think there is that much prototype interest in a locomotive built in 1972. It's just not a model that sets the current market on fire. Twenty years ago, I bet Scott could have filled his order sheet, and then some, but that was then, and this is now. As for Atlas, I'm not sure why their company draws such ire from the vocal minority. Despite anyone's best efforts, they are not going away and are in a strong position to take the lead in modern (I hate that word) car production.

The purchase of BLMA puts Atlas in a great position to produce the Trinity Airflow Hoppers (a great follow-up to the Trinity 5161) as well as those very cool up to date signal bridges and stand alone block signals that dominate today's railroads, a great edition to their 21st Century Signal Line. Along with their 73ft Center Partition Flat Car and 52ft Thrall Gondola that they currently make in HO, we can look forward to some pretty exciting models with excellent detail in the Master Line series. It's not a matter if, only when. While I admit that I've been frustrated with the lack of product coming from Atlas in the past, the bigger picture seems to be Atlas O putting itself in position to do some envelope pushing productions which has been their hallmark since the company's creation. 

So we can agree that the Tier 4 Locomotives, most likely, won't be coming from Atlas O, although a Master Line model would be very well received by the market. Atlas is busy digesting the BLMA and Weaver buyouts, but over all, pretty exciting times, I'd say. The glass is getting to be more than half full, and that, friends, is just great!

Just my opinion here gang, but I think your best shot to get what you want would be to go to Midwestern Model Works website and send an Email to Erik voting for what you would like to see built. If there are enough of you, it will likely get built.

The bad news is, it ain't going to be cheap, but then you are the guys that want all the bells and whistles.

I have NO affiliation with MMW, nor do I profit in ANY way from what they sell. I have zero interest in any model newer than 1st generation diesels. Well, maybe the AMD-103.

Good Luck!

Simon

Mike Caddell posted:

 Honestly, IM not so HO, Scott Mann didn't get enough reservations for the SD40-2 for 2 reasons: First, the market is now just saturated with lesser quality models that the market was willing to accept and purchase. Scott was too late to the party. Second, the SD40-2 is almost 45 years old, yep that's 45 years old folks. For current and recent prototype modelers, that's ancient technology. For many prototype modelers, the SD40-2 is a ship that has also sailed. It's not about niche, it's simply interest. Had some SD40-3 rebuilds been added in, I bet that would have carried the run. I could be wrong, but in the waning days of 2017, I really don't think there is that much prototype interest in a locomotive built in 1972. I

I certainly agree 200% with the need for modern equipment. 

With that said, the SD40-2 remains one of the most popular locomotives in use today.    I can see it not being glamorous in sales as something made in 2017. 

if I were a current prototype modeler it is one locomotive that I would have to have simply because they are still running given their sheer production numbers.

Back to your regularly scheduled discussion. Yes,  tier 4 locomotives ought to be at the top of the heap.  Is it possible to look at the largest sellers in HO and N to determine which to offer first?

From the feedback Sunset has gotten on the SD 40-2 reservations they have indicated they will post another diesel for reservation after the holidays, it will be interesting to see weather they go back to a first gen diesel [ bear in mind their FT units sold mostly to 2 railers] or step up to a modern [GEVO, EMD] unit [ I would be in for a pair of GEVOs] I believe Scott needs a reasonably strong support from the 2 rail market to make any of his diesel reservations happen, his ability to make these projects happen quickly if he gets sufficient reservations is a big plus. With the exception of the Weaver  diesel tooling Atlas is probably several years away from delivering another Masterline diesel. JMO

hibar posted:

From the feedback Sunset has gotten on the SD 40-2 reservations they have indicated they will post another diesel for reservation after the holidays, it will be interesting to see weather they go back to a first gen diesel [ bear in mind their FT units sold mostly to 2 railers] or step up to a modern [GEVO, EMD] unit [ I would be in for a pair of GEVOs] I believe Scott needs a reasonably strong support from the 2 rail market to make any of his diesel reservations happen, his ability to make these projects happen quickly if he gets sufficient reservations is a big plus. With the exception of the Weaver  diesel tooling Atlas is probably several years away from delivering another Masterline diesel. JMO

Given the interest there is in first generation diesels as well as modern (third gen????), could it be that there is a "generation gap" of equipment that few are interested in?

When I was beginning modeling in the early 70's the SD45 was all the rage. 

Now other than MMW, it seems that few are interested in mass-produced versions of SD45's.

Rob,

Bang! You're on top of it! Too much time passed between the Overland issue of SD40-2s and now. I want to model what's on the rails "now", just as Transition Steam/1st Generation Diesel modelers want to carry on with "then".  The SD40-2 has literally come and gone in my lifetime and the market was too slow to respond then, and too late now as other, newer GE and EMD products rule the rails and the interests/imagination of prototype modelers. Strike while the iron is hot! Not? Oh, well.......

......But, Rob, I do agree with you that the SD40-2 is a good sized medium to heavy duty locomotive, fit for a lot of chores, and right sized for a lot of home layouts, which is why I would have supported a SD40-3 rebuild, especially those with cab and truck modifications. Good Call!

The Sunset SD40 project certainly could've benefited from modern rebuilds (look at the sales of the Scaletrains ones for both NS and CSX). The issues that model faces are 1.) Lionel just did it, though not to the same caliber, for many "good enough". 2.) NS and CSX are the only railroads that still heavily rely on the SD40-2, 3.) Midwest Modelworks is offering what the truly detail oriented folks want so the number of people who want more than Lionel and less than MMW may be limited.

And I don't see Lionel or MTH stepping up to the plate for the F45, FP45, SDP40F. I really think a fully scaled loco would be of interest to many.

Saw some great HO Tier 4 models this weekend. Can "O" really be this far behind?

No question Scale Trains and Rapido are showing what can be done in plastic [HO no less] Sunset is doing more detailed models although not to this level, the Atlas Trinity cars were exceptional. I suspect only Scott could tell you what it would take to produce Diesels this well done $$$ Lionel and MTH have no need for going very far in this direction, they sell out all their top of the line products now. JMO

BobbyD posted:

Saw some great HO Tier 4 models this weekend. Can "O" really be this far behind?

Yes.

For a while, O scale was on top of it. We were the first to get ES44ACs, SD70ACes, Gensets, and a plethora of features, but now the high levels of competition in HO scale drive ingenuity compared to the rather stagnant O scale market with now only three major brands.