Tinplate photos 📸 and videos 📽

@NWL:  Doors, Doors, Doors ... wow you have more doors than the singing group (bad joke).  Neat display.  Thank you for your input on the dating of the 4/8 wheel lithographed cars, it is confusing for sure.  In addition, AF printed 8 wheel cars with either the 1115 or 1112 number (I have a red 8 wheel with the 1112 number) so its really confusing.  Thanks again.

Today, I have a new acquisition to post.  It is an American Flyer " Hummer" locomotive and tender.  As best I can tell from my very limited reference material this example is from about 1924 (really dated by the tender ) although it has some aspects (open bottom motor) which might make it slightly earlier.  The Hummer line was AF attempt to secure more business in the low end of the toy train market. They catalogued "Hummer" trains from 1916- 1927.  Only clockwork , usually cataloged in sets although by 1924 American Flyer did provide a separate price for the loco (no tender) @ 60 cents (reference "American Flyer Prewar O' gauge by Alan R. Schuweiler).

Here is the locomotive and tender , Note the number on the tender is "513" and the loco has added hand rails.  Both of these items help in dating this pair to about 1924.

Here is the underside of the clockwork motor.  At some point, the bottom was closed via a sheet metal cover, my reference material does not give an exact date for this change.

The "Hummer" tender with crackle like finish and the rectangle containing the number "513".  This dates this tender to about 1924 as does the addition of add on hand rails date the loco.

The real of the tender with the name..."The Hummer" and a picture of the AFL winged bird below (hard to discern through the crackle finish )

Well best wishes for a great week...

Don

@Don McErlean posted:

The "Hummer" tender with crackle like finish and the rectangle containing the number "513".  This dates this tender to about 1924 as does the addition of add on hand rails date the loco.

The real of the tender with the name..."The Hummer" and a picture of the AFL winged bird below (hard to discern through the crackle finish )

Well best wishes for a great week...

Don

Was that "crackle finish" intentional or did it happen with age ? Whatever the answer I like it !

@G-Man24 posted:

Was that "crackle finish" intentional or did it happen with age ? Whatever the answer I like it !

The "crackle" or "alligatored" finish occurs, but I am not sure that it would be attributed to age, as it does not happen on all items.  I would suspect that it has something to do with the drying process of the lithograph, but I don't know. 

As NWL said it’s possible it’s age but I don’t know.  The only pictures I have show a smooth finish so it’s clearly at odds with the reference material I have but who knows if that is a complete picture   Good question maybe some others will have an input.

Don

@Nation Wide Lines posted:

The "crackle" or "alligatored" finish occurs, but I am not sure that it would be attributed to age, as it does not happen on all items.  I would suspect that it has something to do with the drying process of the lithograph, but I don't know.

@Don McErlean posted:

As NWL said it’s possible it’s age but I don’t know.  The only pictures I have show a smooth finish so it’s clearly at odds with the reference material I have but who knows if that is a complete picture   Good question maybe some others will have an input.

Don

I've been trying to think where I've seen it before and I just remembered. The Pre War Lionel 439 control panel with the knife switches. I've only seen it happen on the dark maroon Pre-War version not the Gray (?) or post war offerings. Some have it and some don't and to varying degrees. Based upon this I'd say this means it happens with age . Actually I don't know what this means,  it just creates more questions than answers lol.

I've always been a fan of textured paint i.e.,  crinkle, wrinkle, crackle, hammertone, etc. I just think it looks neat on antiques. It gives the item a look and feel of precision and quality.  You could spray wrinkle paint on an old index card and make it look valuable.

@G-Man24 posted:

I've been trying to think where I've seen it before and I just remembered. The Pre War Lionel 439 control panel with the knife switches. I've only seen it happen on the dark maroon Pre-War version not the Gray (?) or post war offerings. Some have it and some don't and to varying degrees. Based upon this I'd say this means it happens with age . Actually I don't know what this means,  it just creates more questions than answers lol.

I've always been a fan of textured paint i.e.,  crinkle, wrinkle, crackle, hammertone, etc. I just think it looks neat on antiques.

Actually, that is more of an orange peel finish and is something to do with the type of paint finish and is entirely different from the lithograph alligatoring.

@Nation Wide Lines posted:

Actually, that is more of an orange peel finish and is something to do with the type of paint finish and is entirely different from the lithograph alligatoring.

Hmmm. Not sure I'd call that "Orange Peel" but I agree it's different. I know orange peel because I've painted plenty of automobiles in "orange peel" .  Unintentionally of course

Gonna wade in with ideas rather than facts on this (lol)

Looking at it from a semi-scientific perspective ...

I think the effect is dependent on both how the surface coat is applied AND the environmental factors the piece experiences over a long time .. all metal expands and contracts with heat and cold , and whether the piece "alligators" or not would be an indicator of how well the elasticity of the topcoat ( paint or litho ) holds up over time ... if the topcoat is not 100% bonded to the entire area , over time the weaker attachment lines will have more stresses on them as they are no longer fully in contact with the underlying metal ( on a molecular level ) thus they crack minutely along weaker "fault lines"  as they are pushed and pulled by the expansion and contraction , and over time the topcoat contracts away from the lightly fixed areas as it no longer has the bonds to keep it taut across the entire surface . the topcoat is still bonded to itself more than the metal or base-coat so even tho the coating doesn't flake off you get "Islands" of coating moving on the surface of the metal or base coat.

  Most surface coatings tension as they dry or lose solvents, its why brush marks even out a little after drying etc ... Even when "dry" coatings continue to off-gas volatile's over a very long time ( in minute amounts ) and its often these volatile's that give coatings their flexibility.. which explains why alligatoring takes a long time and is associated with decent age . The effect could also take place WITHIN the coating itself if the "picture" part is a separate identity from the overall composition.

Litho in particular is several layers of pigment bearing substrate ( ink) applied over each other ... over time each colour layer may also minutely expand and contract at different rates .. the Green over Yellow of Dons AF tender seems to be that way .. the green top ink has moved and contracted over time more than the yellow base ink which has remained tightly affixed to the metal , thus the green ink "islands" have formed and contracted over the years ?

Its what commercial orange peel paints and processes rely on , also Hammerite etc ... the Hammerite is a tough intact coating , but as it dries the pigment components are less attached to the binding matter and they shift to create the distinctive Hammered Look .

The clever bit with them is they keep the outer and inner surfaces of the coating attached to whatever you are painting , allow the alligatoring of the pigment to take place then bind it in super tough top and bottom clear layers to provide a durable overall finish ... they achieve intentionally the same process in minutes rather than the years it takes our toys to

I have the same tender with some of that. Usually see it on pieces that have been clear coated with something like a varnish. The under and upper finish age differently.

Here is a Dorfan, but they did it intentionally.

Steve

@Steve "Papa" Eastman posted:

I have the same tender with some of that. Usually see it on pieces that have been clear coated with something like a varnish. The under and upper finish age differently.

Here is a Dorfan, but they did it intentionally.

Steve

Love the look of that Dorfan. I guess I have a hard time believing, in the case of Don's AFL tender, that the manufacturer intended it to happen knowing that it could distort the graphics/lettering to the point where it's nearly illegible .

I lifted this 248 to run with my 601 and 602 passenger cars.

I think I like it better sitting up higher.

After a longer time, a lot of news in the collection. But some need help.

A big Karl Bub loco from around 1910.

The tinplate on some parts was destroyed, had made them new.

In the clockwork was a part broken.

Nearly complete, but needs 4 front wheels ( the next to do)

A small Bing loco is missing 3 of the 4 wheels, I make them new.

Had made a mold for hard lead. Left the Bing wheels, right the wheels for the big Bub loco.

A Bing crane car is missing the crank to turn.

But not all need help.

Bing coal car 10/547 from around 1910

Bing car 10328 made 1911-1915

And a very rare Bing acid car 10297 made 1911-1922

Arne

Got this Ives 3242 today.

Arnie:  You are an absolute craftsman...beautiful work.  The "good" cars were also spectacular, I especially liked the "acid" car with the containers never have seen anything like that before.  Thank you for posting.

Don

OK Tinplate Fans, I have something for you that is essentially NONSENSE but IT IS Tinplate!  Now on 2/10 in the "Marx Train Pictures" thread Fatman allowed as he now has 2 pieces of plastic in his collection but would not likely have more...so how can you scenic a layout without using some plastic.  Well here is your solution...I present to you...Lithographed, tinplate rock formations !!

Now tinplate purists you too can have scenery...here they are:

In close up  Both formations are each about 4" long, 2.5" wide and about 1" high at the highest point.  We have flowers, weeds, grass, dirt, and rocks...all presented in lithographed beauty (LOL)!.

I just got these in the mail and they are going on my layout.  Folks...don't take this too seriously it is just for laughs and can't compare with the fabulous trains posted elsewhere.  Just for fun.

Don

@Don McErlean posted:

OK Tinplate Fans, I have something for you that is essentially NONSENSE but IT IS Tinplate!  Now on 2/10 in the "Marx Train Pictures" thread Fatman allowed as he now has 2 pieces of plastic in his collection but would not likely have more...so how can you scenic a layout without using some plastic.  Well here is your solution...I present to you...Lithographed, tinplate rock formations !!

Now tinplate purists you too can have scenery...here they are:

In close up  Both formations are each about 4" long, 2.5" wide and about 1" high at the highest point.  We have flowers, weeds, grass, dirt, and rocks...all presented in lithographed beauty (LOL)!.

I just got these in the mail and they are going on my layout.  Folks...don't take this too seriously it is just for laughs and can't compare with the fabulous trains posted elsewhere.  Just for fun.

Don

I “think” they are by Chein

Steve

Steve:  Thanks for the data...they are not marked in any way, including country of origin hence my assumption that they would be US made and I naturally went to Marx...but pleased to know if they are Chien.

Don

What can I say @Don McErlean .. except tin.... rocks ! ...

Literally ! LOL !

The " Great Train Drought" of 2022 has broken , courtesy yet again of Dutchboy!

He's done a great job finding quite a few early locos that need bits n bobs sourced and replaced , but he tempted me into letting the moths out of the wallet with a glorious 1950's Distler rake to add to the mayhem at Casa Fatmanos .

I am experimenting with this rough 1688E.