TMCC/LionChief/LionChief+

Well, I am a few years late to this forum, but for others like me just getting a LionChief loco this is interesting reading.  I would suggest that for persons (like me) operating a small layout: the LionChief system is the best thing that ever happended to model railroading.  I have studied the Lionel's TCMM and Legacy systems and have owned a RailKing Proto 3.0 locomotive that I operated with the DCS Remote Commander system which I would say is sort of at the same level as the LionChief.  LionChief wins hands down!!  The remote is easy to use and maintains great contact with the loco.  It enables all the basic functions that would have been considered miraculous a generation ago: horn, bell, direction, speed control, electro-couplers with some crew chatter thrown in!  The best part is that it is not only functional but it is cheap!  Of course the cost of the remote is included in the cost of the loco, but there are no other components to buy, truly plug and play!  The last thing I want with a small layout is a bunch of wiring and black boxes.  I know that they can do everything except order a pizza, but the remotes for TCMM, Legacy and MTH DCS look like something out of NASA Mission Control.  The low end MTH DCS Remote Commander has a very unintutive speed control function and seems to lose signal in at close range.

I know most of the people interested in this forum and in the 1% of tech savvy model railroaders but I have to believe that most of us couldn't do better than LionChief.  By the way, except for a lack of scale offerings, the LionChief Plus locos are terrific: very smooth operation, nice sounds, smoke, directional lighting, electro-couplers.   Easily the equivalent of RailKing Proto 3.0 are a lower price point.

Hope this is of some use to small timers like me wandering through the maze of gee whiz model train control systems.  By the way, like all electronics the pace of change is likely only going to accelerate, so good luck keeping up!

Well, since this resurrected thread is almost five years old ,  it's important to mention that LC and LC+ have now been surpassed, so to speak,  by Lion Chief 2.0. LC and LC+ are still being offered but the latest and greatest is 2.0.   

See the chart in the 2020 catalog for a good breakdown on all of the Lionel control systems.

Yes, I actually learned about LC+2 just after making my post.  Like I said it will be hard to keep up! 

LC+2 or LionChief Plus 2.0 seems to be a real step up from LC+ because it supports more locomotive features, and can be operated with the Legacy and TCMM systems in addition to the LionChief universal remote, which should satisfy people interested in compatibility (as in one controller running various types of locomotive). The LC+2 locos apparently don't come packaged with a remote, but that's ok as they will be a step up and maybe a second loco for someone that started with a basic LionChief, or LC+.  I very much like the fact that the LC+2 can be operated with the LionChief universal remote, which being able to control 3 trains will be all I need.

I, and probably many others, can't wait to upgrade my LionChief Polar Express Berkshire with the new LC+2 version, so hopefully this line will be very successful for Lionel.   Nice to have a quality loco with so many features operable by a simple, easy to use remote!!

I'm also happy to see LC+ 2.0 coming along, I can run it with my simple, easy to use Legacy system.

I am waiting for a pre-ordered LC 2.0, which will be my 1st, hoping to receive it late Spring 2020 according to my LHS, so I cannot comment on it yet, except to say I can't wait to get it. I will run it either with the LionChief App or using the universal remote, which I already have.

Regarding LC+, I have 3 of them and am quite pleased. Keep in mind, if you like detail, some have more detail than others. My favorite is the LC+ Erie Camelback because it has excellent detail IMO, much more than my other 2 LC+ locos.

I am most pleased with their relatively affordable prices and user friendliness, and the fact they are a lot of fun to operate. Arnold

The Camelback is my only LC+ locomotive as well.   I'll have a couple of the LC+ 2.0 Dockside switchers when they hit the dock.

Same here. I've got my first LC 2.0 (one of the Dockside 0-6-0Ts) on order from the 2019 catalog. July delivery according to Charles Ro's site the last time I checked.

Second (and third) what a great feature set the "+" models are. Though I'm definitely a conventional/remote guy, my kids' interests went up-up-up once they learned they could use their "phones" for control. In my household, at least, it's a killer app.

Can't wait for the 2 LC2.0s awaiting delivery: a Berkshire Pere Marquette and a GG1.

Noice!

- The Other Guy

PDBRule posted:

Well, I am a few years late to this forum, but for others like me just getting a LionChief loco this is interesting reading.  I would suggest that for persons (like me) operating a small layout: the LionChief system is the best thing that ever happended to model railroading.  I have studied the Lionel's TCMM and Legacy systems and have owned a RailKing Proto 3.0 locomotive that I operated with the DCS Remote Commander system which I would say is sort of at the same level as the LionChief.  LionChief wins hands down!!  The remote is easy to use and maintains great contact with the loco.  It enables all the basic functions that would have been considered miraculous a generation ago: horn, bell, direction, speed control, electro-couplers with some crew chatter thrown in!  The best part is that it is not only functional but it is cheap!  Of course the cost of the remote is included in the cost of the loco, but there are no other components to buy, truly plug and play!  The last thing I want with a small layout is a bunch of wiring and black boxes.  I know that they can do everything except order a pizza, but the remotes for TCMM, Legacy and MTH DCS look like something out of NASA Mission Control.  The low end MTH DCS Remote Commander has a very unintutive speed control function and seems to lose signal in at close range.

I know most of the people interested in this forum and in the 1% of tech savvy model railroaders but I have to believe that most of us couldn't do better than LionChief.  By the way, except for a lack of scale offerings, the LionChief Plus locos are terrific: very smooth operation, nice sounds, smoke, directional lighting, electro-couplers.   Easily the equivalent of RailKing Proto 3.0 are a lower price point.

Hope this is of some use to small timers like me wandering through the maze of gee whiz model train control systems.  By the way, like all electronics the pace of change is likely only going to accelerate, so good luck keeping up!

I agree.  I have several LC, LC+, and waiting on a LC+ 2.0 (pre-ordered from Charles Ro).  It started with a Christmas set in 2018 and has expanded ever since.  I have no doubt that the scale Legacy is better quality and more features.  I cannot afford that equipment so it is a moot point from my perspective.   IMO the LC starter sets represent the future for this hobby in that it will bring in more younger people to the railroading hobby.  I love RC loco's because it is so easy and economical.   I can power a loop of track(or more loops) with (4) 72 watt LC wall warts which totals 288 watts all for $160.  I can have  LC remotes(including the universal remote) run several trains on the same loop with no special wiring.  I will have electrical blocks that can be switched off/on on sidings and in the yard.  It is a win win for me.

Does that 0-6-0 Lionchief + 2.0 that’s due in July...come with a tender ? Thanks

Nessmuck posted:

Does that 0-6-0 Lionchief + 2.0 that’s due in July...come with a tender ? Thanks

If you are talking about the 0-6-0T that JOHNTRAINS posted, the answer is no.  The T stands for "tank" and no tender is needed/included.   I have one of these pre ordered from Charles Ro as well.  These smaller steam loco's were used in yards and dockside and the tank could not hold as much as a tender.   These were rarely used on the mainline, if ever.

dan 77 posted:

I can power a loop of track(or more loops) with (4) 72 watt LC wall warts which totals 288 watts all for $160.

A VERY bad idea IMO!  Regulated DC power supplies should not be paralleled, any slight component differences can create a situation where they start fighting with each other.  Also, you have basically no track short circuit protection with that option.  15+ amps with no circuit protection can do a lot of wheel welding in a derailment.  Much better option for around $130 street price is to buy the PowerHouse 180 with it's excellent electronic circuit breaker.

dan 77 posted:

Nessmuck posted:

Does that 0-6-0 Lionchief + 2.0 that’s due in July...come with a tender ? Thanks

If you are talking about the 0-6-0T that JOHNTRAINS posted, the answer is no.  The T stands for "tank" and no tender is needed/included.   I have one of these pre ordered from Charles Ro as well.  These smaller steam loco's were used in yards and dockside and the tank could not hold as much as a tender.   These were rarely used on the mainline, if ever.

Thanks for that. Iam trying to find an 0-6-0 with a tender in Lionchief+ 2.0 ....to model the Conway RR here in New Hampshire,that goes over the Frankenstein Trestle.

After reading all this I just had to chime in. I own all the available control systems and have to say I’m very impressed by LionChief. It started with the Thomas set for my grandson. By the age of 23 months he was able to turn on the 180W brick I gave him and turn on his controller to run Thomas. He understands the speed control and the 3 function buttons. I think this is fantastic!!! Lionel has created a tool that will bring new young blood into the hobby! At 27 months my grandson now uses my DCS dust as good as me. I’m now planning to convert my new granddaughter’s pink “Girls Set” to LionChief so she will be able to enjoy her trains like her brother. You guys who are poo pooing LionChief are missing the point of the system. LionChief is entry level at its best! My only negative is steamers with a tender have no headlight for running in reverse (camelbacks). One last comment, saying LionChief + and 2.0 don’t come with a controller isn’t  true, it’s called a cell phone with Lionel’s free app!

Trainmstr posted:

You guys who are poo pooing LionChief are missing the point of the system. LionChief is entry level at its best! My only negative is steamers with a tender have no headlight for running in reverse (camelbacks).

Who's poo pooing LC?  It's great for what it is.  You're expressing your opinion, aren't we entitled to ours?

Trainmstr posted:

One last comment, saying LionChief + and 2.0 don’t come with a controller isn’t  true, it’s called a cell phone with Lionel’s free app!

The cell phone comes free with the LC+ 2.0 engines?  I didn't realize that!

"Who's poo pooing LC?" 

To be fair, while you have not been doing so at all, a fair number of folks have been ragging on LC over the last half decade.   LC wasn't intended for them so it made no sense and must be a terrible, disastrous mistake.  Well, the marketplace has spoken and it's a hit.  LC has a more favorable price point than any other O gauge set line of sets or starter locomotives with command capability (just bought one for $179). 

Lionel has and still does provide a command control remote with every single LC and LC+ set/loco,  until this last year or so, where there are some separate sale LC+ locos without remotes.  LC+ 2.0 is yet another step in the evolution of the system, resembling Legacy-lite or TMCC rather than LC or LC+. 

Turns out Lionel knows more about its market than some of the self-appointed wunderkinds here .  If a Legacy to LC and/or LC to Legacy bridge is brought to market, the evolution will be complete in most ways.

For those concerned about the future of the hobby (I'm not one), the availability of a Thomas the Tank set with digital command control and an enclosed remote at $150 from Charles Ro is something no one else comes close to providing.  Your child or grandchild (or 95 year old auntie or uncle Bob) who likes Thomas can operate the little fellow on your 20 foot by 60 foot superdetailed DCS/Legacy layout with no modifications or additional equipment to what's enclosed in the box.  That's kind of nice,  it seems to me.

Probably can't argue that Lionel figured out the marketing, I see a lot of LC sets flying out the door at Henning's store!

Just as an aside and sort of on point...

I'm all in on LC+ (and the new LC 2.0) and have quite a few LC+ locos, steam and diesel. They're great!  But I also just placed my preorder for the new Lionel Area 51 Set which is LC with the remote. "Plain vanilla" LC not usually my cup of tea but really think this will be a cool and fun set. Especially with the new lighted FasTrack.

So the "marketing" got me in the end.

Landsteiner posted:

"Who's poo pooing LC?" 

To be fair, while you have not been doing so at all, a fair number of folks have been ragging on LC over the last half decade.   LC wasn't intended for them so it made no sense and must be a terrible, disastrous mistake.  Well, the marketplace has spoken and it's a hit.  LC has a more favorable price point than any other O gauge set line of sets or starter locomotives with command capability (just bought one for $179). 

I was just at a train show where the recent Lionel LionChief U36B Lehigh Valley train set was running. Now I don't know if they were using the wall-wort or a transformer. I've read where you can use a transformer and set the voltage to the track a little lower than the standard 18 volts for these LC engines.

BUT that engine was running slow and steadily the entire time I was there. And it was just left to run on its' own: No one had the remote in their hand, speeding up the engine on the curves. Granted, it was straight and level track. And granted it was on FasTrack with the wider 36 inch curves. But still the train speed was slow and very consistent, and I was duly impressed for a starter set with just basic features.

Now, the LV hopper in the set is silver, not grey. And the LV diamond on the caboose is smeared a little bit due to the body rivets it is printed over. I've seen other starter rolling stock where that wasn't an issue. But that's a quibble for another thread. Maybe because the LV is one of my favorite roads that I'm a little more picky. 

Price point is an important element of the LionChief line, and Lionel has repeatedly acknowledged its lower cost product lines is where the bulk of its train sales are. (And, in fact, make production of its higher-end Legacy line possible.)

But let’s be clear on how Lionel achieves that price point. Yes, the simplified electronics saves some money over Legacy, but Lionel has primarily kept the price low by making use of older tooling in the LionChief model line. The U36B dates back to the early 1970s. The NW2 tooling is postwar era. The A5 comes from K-Line tooling nearly 20 years ago. Even the forthcoming Polar Express engine is from now-15-year-old tooling.

That’s important. Because if Lionel were forced to create all new tooling for larger scale-sized locomotives, the price would skyrocket.

I like the LionChief line. I own a half-dozen already, including the original Thomas release and several LionChief Plus models. But I wouldn’t call it the ”future of our hobby” if that phraseology is meant to include all-new massive steamers Lionel produces today.

LionChief Plus 2.0 is an upgrade, of course, from basic LionChief, but the sub-$500 mark is still key to its strong sales. (The Lionmaster Allegheny, at $1,100 list, and the F3 sets, at more than $600, are obvious signs Lionel will see what the market will bear.)

My only criticism of the LionChief line was in the use of cheaper components in the drive train early on to save on production costs. It sounds like Lionel has improved newer releases, in that respect. 

"But I wouldn’t call it the ”future of our hobby” if that phraseology is meant to include all-new massive steamers Lionel produces today."

It's the future of the hobby insofar as reasonable volume sales are concerned.  The public is not going to be buying thousands or tens of thousands of $1,000-2,000 locomotives ever is my guess .  If one expects or hopes the hobby will be around in 20 years, it's going to be due to Lionel and LC/LC+ type locos in sets that are affordable for a larger percent of the buying public. 

Lionel's brand recognition and the continued ability to purchase a set for $150-300 street price will make or break the hobby in the longer term.  It won't be MTH, which might or might not survive Mike Wolf's eventual retirement or sale of the company; it won't be Bachmann's O gauge lineup and it won't be 3rd Rail for sure. 

Personally, I'm not concerned about the 20+ year future due to my own age and my general feeling that "what will be will be."  But it's important to some folks and I like the idea that people will be enjoying a three rail toy train around the tree or similar pleasure in the year 2050 as they were in 1950.  Most folks, perhaps almost all, buy a set and a few extra cars, some track, maybe a second locomotive and that's it. For that relatively dominant segment of the marketplace, Lionel and LC/LC+ are pretty much the only game in town for the future of the hobby is my prediction.

I am concerned about the future of the hobby, that is why I think LionChief is on target. I have ensured my grandchildren and all my little grand nieces and nephews have a train set for around their Christmas trees. Though I won’t be around, nothing would make me happier than the thought that each of them continue the tradition of trains around the tree with their own children and grandchildren. I’ll do my part but I believe LionChief will help continue the hobby for other families. Maybe I’m just sentimental but I think if my trains bring a smile to a family members face in the future I’ve done my part for the hobby. If they remember that Uncle Lenny provided the trains, then that’s a bonus.

One of the key reasons for the eventual domination of LC in the future is that it is based on current state of the art high frequency signalling technology whereas TMCC/Legacy is based on 1960's era low frequency technology.

I have 2 Lion Chief+ engines (NW2 and Pacific steamer) and am very happy with both. I was especially happy with the price point. I got simple command control for about the price of a Williams engine.

The upgrade to Lion Chief 2.0 seems to have added $200 which lifts purchases of these engines out of my price range. I would like F3's, but not at $500. The tooling is paid for and the slightly increased capabilities don't justify the price leap.

I suspect that my current engines may be the last two Lion Chief products I purchase. I'm not going to follow the latest releases upmarket pricing.

" I would like F3's, but not at $500." "I'm not going to follow the latest releases upmarket pricing."

You probably won't have to go for the LC+ 2.0 at higher prices if that's not your preference.  On p.135 are examples why not. Lionel is making separate sale LionChief diesels for about $220 that Charles Ro is selling for about $179.  These are GP38s, but there's no reason that an F3 won't be made in that line. Last year they made a RS-3 I believe.  These run well but don't have speed control.  Unless Lionel stops making separate sale Lionel LC locos, you should be able to pick up various types of steam and diesels at more modest price points as the years go on.  You probably will be able to purchase a set with a LC F3 at some point for about $250-350 that includes rolling stock, track and a power supply as well as the loco you want.

PS-Steam 0-6-0 locos on p. 134 at the same prices. None of these have electrocouplers, just ordinary operating thumbtack couplers, which contributes to the lower pricing no doubt.

BOB WALKER posted:

One of the key reasons for the eventual domination of LC in the future is that it is based on current state of the art high frequency signalling technology whereas TMCC/Legacy is based on 1960's era low frequency technology.

At the risk of getting overwhelmed with electrical engineering I had wondered why the LC systems don't require a track interface component like all the other command control systems. Seems they all should be able to communicate directly with the locos.🤔 Sure would be nice to save the expense and space from not having to use one of these black boxes.