To Pre order or not to Pre order. That is the question!

It really depends upon the item. With the manufacturers moving more to Build-to-Order, you may not get one now if you didn't preorder. There is always the secondary market. If you're patient, you can frequently get a deal after someone else has finished playing with theirs.

The Big Boy is a good example of a high demand item. There may be dealers who ordered extra for stock. If you really want one, I wouldn't be waiting too long.

Gilly

I doubt that BTO is going to work out in the long run.  With catalog discrepancies "what you saw isn't what you got" and the chance of production delays (sometimes years) I think the savvy train stores will order extra for the procrastinators that want to see it first in person.  The downside being the e-trade scalpers buying up the extras to sell at highly inflated prices, like the VL BB on da bay now selling for $2800.  Interesting times!

Stack 

BTO, get used to it. However just because you do not pre-order does not mean you will be deprived of a product. You will in most cases pay more for the privilege of look and see first. Sure some dealers order extras on what they think will be hot items, and look what happened recently with the PE 1225's when some really jacked up the price as the pre-orders all went out the door quickly (personally, I have no issue with this).

The best advice I can give you is to deal with a reliable dealer, hopefully one who supports this Forum through their advertisements. I have such a dealer and have absolutely no problem with them or the pre-order system.

I agree. However, not everyone has a train store near them or even close to them. I am fortunate to have one near me that I can almost walk too.

Sometimes the hype surrounding certain items can be enough to compel one to pre order. Then when the item arrives, it is not accurate or even close to being what was advertised. Can be most confounding at times.

In most cases, I am sure the Pre order idea works though.

Pete

I used to pre-order everything I want, but now I only order a loco or set that I really, really want.  Right now all I have pre-ordered is the 3rd Rail Train of Tomorrow, and the Imperial Triplex.  I have about five that I want but have not pre-ordered.

My reason is that too often the items are so delayed that there was another option before they were available.  Example: Lionel's UP City of LA and MWROlympian passenger car ses avertised in the catalogs with the new Legacy E9s were supposed to be out in Oct '14, but kept getting delayed.  When the locos shipped but the cars did not, and then were delayed some more, I went ahead and bought a full City of LA train of MTH's cars, they are not only as good or better than the Lionel, but were available in November.

I find I can get what I want 90% of the time even if not pre-ordering, by jumping immediately to order when the item is first shipped.  I watch the shipping lists at least once a week checking the full list of items I want, and during the time I think they may first reach the  dealers, visit the sites of four or five of the forum sponsors here  once or twice a day.  I order what I want then and there when I first find it - I don't pussyfoot around for a day to two thinking about.   I usually get what I want, although it is possible I will not.  

I'm done pre-ordering.  The last time, consisting of four items, was a disaster.

I used to pre-order a lot, but at that time the manufacturers were bringing out a lot of things that I wanted badly and was concerned that I might or might not be able to find when they hit the stores. Things like the MTH Milwaukee Road boxcab electrics. In recent years, two things have happened: first, I've whittled my "must have" list down to a few items that most likely the manufacturers will never make, and second, when I open a new catalog, there just isn't all that much that I really want. I have a pretty big collection as it is, so something really has to catch my eye to make me want it. I still order a few items of rolling stock just for convenience - if I have to remember to check when it's coming out, I might miss it. As far as engines go, the last one I pre-ordered was the Lionel Milwaukee Road Northern, and I'm glad I did because that became a very scarce item and has been selling for more than MSRP. On the other hand, I can point to a few engines that I pre-ordered and they were on blowout two months after I took delivery (the Lionel Bi-Polar comes to mind). 

When and if Lionel does the USRA Heavy Mikado in Milwaukee Road, or if MTH decides to have another go at a McKeen car,  I might be motivated to pre-order. For most things, however, I'm quite content to lurk around the secondary market and snap up the bargains. 

"I agree. However, not everyone has a train store near them or even close to them. I am fortunate to have one near me that I can almost walk too."

Neither do I. Charles Ro is 2 1/2 hours away, but they are in reality my closest and local train shop. Distance has no bearing on this question. They are terrific to deal with and though they are NOT NEXT DOOR, it doesn't really matter, does it.

I really don't think much has changed with BTO. There are plenty of dealers that have extra bigboys etc. The bigger dealers know what sells and what doesn't and order extra accordingly. These dealers have always "ordered" the stock from Lionel, based on customer feedback and their own guesstimations.

Folks who do not preorder will still have the opportunity to get a particular loco. They will likely have to pay $50,$100 or more, after the "preorder deadline". This was typical prior to the whole BTO thing, so nothing new here either.

IMO ultimately helps prevent Lionel from "overproducing" certain products and dealers having to "let them go" at blowout pricing. I.E Legacy sharks AA's from a year ago can be found for just over $400.

The most popular locos especially in the case of steam offerings, have always "sold out" within 6 months to a year of dealer delivery.

MTH items seem to sell out faster, I suspect even tighter production numbers.

Lionels new "BTO" is pretty much buisness as usual, its just getting more publicity.

I don't order anything that doesn't yet exist, unless it's some custom thing being made to my specifications (and that's really rare).

If you're a vendor, you need to accept the up-front cost for producing the item that you're already going to sell to me for a profit. Otherwise, you're not getting my money. I've seen way too many people order stuff up front and either never get what their ordered, or hear constant excuses for crazy amounts of time. And if it's a new item, you had no way to know if the item is as good as you wanted to start with if it never existed before you paid for it.

No sir, you can count me out on that.

Before this goes to far:

I would like to take a moment and say to all concerned that I am not trying to stir the pot or start any type of controversy. Obviously, we have many in here that represent companies as well as just private parties. That being said, pre ordering is a wonderful tool for those that want to make sure they have something they really are interested in. It may not work out for some. It may work out for some. Either way, It is my general belief that the system can use some improvement.

Pete

Perhaps distance is irrelevant. I merely mentioned this because it can be a factor when dealing with these types of purchases. That is all I meant.

Pete

I think Brian (PTC) above put this into the best perspective.  The "new" BTO  policy is really not new to the hobby.  For as long as I can remember, MTH has based much of their Premier production on the orders they get from the dealer network....sort of the same thing as BTO.

Alan

I pre-ordered the MTH McKeen car. It was not produced...as said on another thread,

"Fool me once...."  Build it and I will come, if it ain't built, I am stayin".

Lionel and MTH as well as other companies must rely on the pre ordering system. I agree though, if something is scheduled to be manufactured and it is not yet available, but it can be pre ordered, that is strictly a personal decision of course. I don't pre order myself. However, I might consider it if I have the funding and the need is there.

I can understand the sentiments expressed for NOT pre ordering though. No one wants to part with money for something that MAY never show up.

Pete

Agree with several others. BTO is not that big of change in the long run. Not only for the reasons already stated, but because it only applies -- at least so far -- to a very small number of items out all of the product produced every year. 

I don't mind pre-ordering. As said above, it is the only way to be sure you get an item, unless it is cancelled. I pre-order 90% of all my train items at my LHS. Selections are carefully made as my want list is usually much larger than my budget. I don't recall pre-ordering anything and not wanting it when it arrived. I purchase only an occasional piece of rolling stock that was not pre-ordered. These are items I either missed, were un-cataloged or older items no longer available for ordering.  

The other point to be made for pre-ordering is that it also helps a great deal in even getting the item made in the first place. Many items are cancelled when the manufacturers do not receive enough advance orders. If we don't show interest, they won't make it. So by pre-ordering you are also helping to make sure the item is produced. This recently happened with several MTH items, most were not high demand items to begin with if I remember correctly, but still they were cancelled due to no one ordering them.

I just cannot fathom the thought of parting with a significant amount of money for something that has yet to be created. That is called gambling. At least that is how I see it. Yet, I suppose in this hobby it is a necessary tool in order to make sure we get what we want.

Pete

"I ask, not out of any real particular concern, but it appears that many in this hobby cannot get anything because the items are all gone and the well is all dried up. Personally, I do not suffer from this, but I can see some do. Is that fair?"

Yes, it is fair, anyone may pre-order, or decline to do so.  Those who pre-order commit to the sale in exchange for assurance of getting a unit.   Value transacts in both directions.   

Fairness is subjective.  

One reason given by the manufacturers for a pre-order is the cost of dies. My experience with China factories is that a die was typically 1/10 US price; $300 vs >$3000. But depending upon the drawing and tolerances, you could expect 1 or 2 iterations before parts acceptance-and time lost; nothing came easy. With todays drawing systems and internet, the files sent electronically for parts/components are dependent upon various manufacture cycle times. And as we all know, the shipping costs keep increasing cutting into margin.

   A pre-order is a great benefit for the company which is fine and if it doesn't look like initial samples, it's because of many reasons, all alibis for not doing the job right the first time.

So I'm from Missouri for this issue

I'm pretty prototypically challenged, so an incorrect detail or two does not bother me at all. I don't know the difference. Also, I only have modern diesels, so I'm not pre-ordering the $1200-$2000 steamers, only diesels. I set aside funds to cover my pre-orders at the time of order, or at least make sure I set enough aside monthly, so they are covered when they arrive.

Most dealers only require a small deposit, and I believe some still require no deposit. Lionel's BTO could have changed this for some dealers? So it does not cost a lot to pre-order, the real pain comes when the item arrives.  

If the item is not created your deposit or any money paid toward the item will be refunded, so you are out nothing if that happens.

Pete,

I don't think I understand your comment.  Most dealers (Charles Ro for instance) charge nothing to pre-order an item and don't charge your card until it arrives.

Pre-ordering is a matter of trust.  Do you trust the manufacturer to make what they say they will make.

My last three pre-orders have sucked up large chunks of my train budget.

• 3rd Rail B&O T-3
• 3rd Rail Columbian
• 3rd Rail Train of Tomorrow

I had zero worries about placing pre-orders on these items as I knew that Sunset/3rd Rail/GGD would make them right!

Jim

Hi guys

I only pre-order once in while

I ordered a bunch of New york Central & Systems stuff from both Mth catalogs ! 

I only received the Three car box car set NYC boxcars

& passenger set 60' in NYC !

Mth came up short on The MTH PLE BERKSHIRE engine (RAILKING), The NYC MOHAWK SET WITH BOX CARS & CABOOSE !(RAILKING)   & NYC RS-1 NYC (RAILKING SCALE)

I ordered the Mth Christmas Christmas Cars & the uncataloged Christmas diesel. I picked up the cars within the last week .  The engine is waiting for me on friday after Christmas ! 

Please Note those delays afforded me to get the Lionel Frosty set & plus one extra boxcar so far !  I also bought various previous boxcars with snowmen on them ! 

One has to wonder about the folks who will pay $2800 for an item off ePay which is still being offered by some dealers here for $1950+ here

Laziness comes at a price. Some folks find it waiser to hit buy it now off ePay instead of looking around for a good deal...

That's okay Chris. I was generalizing. Like you did when you stated "most dealers".

Most dealers are not all dealers. Some I have known want it all up front or you get nothing. Still others want a small down payment of whatever they specify. Most in here have pretty darn good relationships with either the store they shop at or the dealers themselves. That being the case, it is unlikely that they would charge even a nickel until the item arrives.

Business is business and when it comes to business, friendships are a distant second place to the bottom line as it were.

Pete

the one and only time i pre ordered was a lionel black fef which is still have never gotten from the time i pre ordered it til the item came out the dealer i preordered from went out of business.

Which brings up an interesting point. So, you find something you like and you lay out some cash. Say a small down payment on the pre order. You patiently await your order. Then one day you call and the place is gone. As in bye. What do you do now?

Oh I know most reputable dealers/stores and businesses do not operate in this manner and I would never ever insult anyone by inferring they do, but stuff happens and when it does, it is always the little guy that gets burned.

Pete

Sorry to hear about that. I am sure many dealers are not like this. In the final analysis, one must simply make the choice based upon trust and a genuine feeling that they will indeed receive what they paid for.

Pete

For the most part you can get any BTO item once it's released as long as you keep on top of items being released.  I rarely preorder unless it's something special and very limited And I absolutely don't want to miss it, (Like my GM TOT).  But from lionel or MTH, nope.  I mean the big boy is nice but not new, it's been made multiple times before.  Just some newer features.  A lot of marketing hype.  And you can't compare eBay prices to what you'd pay at a dealer even if you did not pre order it.  You just can't wait if you decide it's something you might want.  There will be enough people who dont preorder to buy up any remaining extras.  although the berkshires have been out since mid November and you can still get them.  Certain road names tend to always be in demand, like U.P.  There are still lots of vision centipedes out there, but try to find a U.P. one and you'd be out of luck.  The key to remember is there are tons of trains out there.  Don't get caught up buying something you might regret later just because of the BTO hype.  If you miss it there always something else coming along new and better.  

TTT, great new signature.

I agree here. Sometimes it is all about hype and yes, many of these locomotives are repeats, but with newer technology perhaps or newer features. I don't begrudge anyone for wanting something really bad. Even if it means laying out some serious cash up front.

EBay is great, but it can also be a nightmare as well.

Pete

The dealers that want full payment up front are probably the ones that have had people order large ticket items and then back out of the deal after ordering. Leaving them with some item(s) they may or may not be able to sell. A large dealer that moves a lot of product can probably absorb this. Smaller dealers not so much. This has happened to my LHS. They got stuck with some expensive steamers that someone pre-ordered and then changed their mind when they came in. Took them 2-3 years to get rid of and tied up a lot in inventory they could have used on items that moved better. That's a lot for a small LHS.

They wanted full payment from me the first time I pre-ordered from them. Now that they know me I just order, I'm not required to place a deposit. I have pre-ordered a lot of stuff there (90-95% of my train purchases are from them) and have always made good on the orders when they come in. Sometimes I even pay them off a little ahead of time. Most new people they are not familiar with are still required to pay up front.

Not sure I agree with the availability of BTO items without pre-ordering. May happen with a popular item like the recent VL BB, but if it's an item the big dealers don't want, they will order very few, if any extras. Like something that just barely made enough orders to actually go to production. The smaller dealers won't order extra as it reduces their cash flow and ties up a lot of their buying power they could be using for items that sell much better. They don't want a $1200 (their cost) steamer sitting around for several years gathering dust. They want product that moves and that is what they order for store stock. Putting all their assets into big ticket items that don't sell will put them out of business in a hurry.

Items in the smaller and less popular road names would be an example for the above. If these items are not pre-ordered there is a very good chance they will never be made and none will be available period. The manufacturers are not going to tie up their assets in something that they don't think will sell either. If you really want something like this, a pre-order is the only way to go. And then hope others pre-order as well so there are enough to get the item produced. With BTO, the manufacturers are telling us something. If we don't indicate that we want something, they are not going to make it.

When you don't pre-order, Lionel cancels beautiful locomotives like this...

Never heard in these times of a LHS wanting full payment up front on a pre-order.

Personally, I think its nuts to prepay a $1200 - $1500 locomotive.  Stuff happens, what happens if the dealer closes after getting your money and before the engine gets delivered?

For the LHS who is afraid of getting stuck with pre-ordered merchandise, it would seem to me to be a much better idea to charge a partial deposit, say 10 - 20%.  Seems to me, customers would be happier leaving a smaller deposit, and if the buyer backs out of the pre-order, the dealer could sell the engine at a discount.

Jim

I would never pay in full for any preorder. There are too many dealers out here that require no down payment. 

I only buy BTO if there is something I really want, other then that I take my chances.