Track design frustration

Take the time to work through the RR tutorial and you will have no problem laying out your design.

Mark, if you know how to upload your .rrt file, I'll take a look (if it's compatible with v5) and see if I can help. I agree with rc that you can learn a lot by following along with the Getting Started tutorial in the manual.

markkl25,
Time to step back and take a deep breath.
Return to the beginning and do some planning to focus your ideas and use some graph paper and draw a rough sketch. To get to that point, follow the approach of some of the famous layout designers, like John Armstrong for one, Givens and Druthers
Here's a couple of easy reads. You can find many books, the concepts haven't changed.
Building your model railroad
NMRA Layout Design

If your past that stage and it's the software learning curve, well that just takes time. Each software provides tutorials. So, go to pencil and graph paper. You can also post your file and someone will assist with some corrections to get you past the block.

Your givens and druthers so far are:
Givens           Druthers
8' x 15' space          Side by Side Tracks
RealTrax for track          Switching Layout
Small Engines          Multiple Elevations

Refine your ideas of what you want, then hit RR-Track again.

You'll get the hang of it! Have fun!

Why not start with a pencil and piece of paper?  Many great layouts were created without the help of computers or track planning software.  It seems you would need to have some idea of what you wanted to do before you cranked up the computer.  I am not saying that if you love using computers and learning new software, go for it but there are other ways.

You also did not mention if the 8 x 15 area was to be the surface size for the layout or the room size where you would put the layout.  Or if you hope to have one or two mainlines and what diameter track you are planning to use and is it to be flat or have inclines and over - unders.

Good luck and happy railroading,

Don

I didn't care too much for software either. I simply started laying out track on the floor and liked the full scale perspective before I cut any wood. Just tape out the outline. 

Looks like the version of software I have is only the "lite" version that came with an MTH set a couple years back. The area I have to work with is 8x15 due to furnace water heater and laundry area. There is a chance for expansion to the other side of the basement but that will need a drop in section and a bit more work. 2 lines would be nice if enough space with wanting to do switching, and I have a bunch of o-42 but would like to get some o-54 as well. I really wanted to stay away from 0-31 if i can. Thanks so far guys looks like i'm gonna be "hiding" in the basement in a few hours after get some rest.

I never used track layout software: it is technically precise and "avoids" mistakes but: a) use of software distracts me from creativity by requiring I pay attention to operating the software correctly rather than letting the other side of my brain have free reign to "get silly," b) it is not as much fun (at least for me).

Instead, I bought a 30 x 24 inch pad of paper ruled with light blue one-inch squares and just doodled: drew the dimensions of my layout room in ink and then sketched possible desired benchwork that would fit within that and then track plans in pencil on that and "played" - with a big eraser for re-tries.  I spent a long time and many sheets just "dreaming" and trying different approaches/ideas.  

At least initially, as a first step, I strongly recommend this approach for its simplicity and flexibility and - I'll say creativity that it fosters.  Note in particular that at first I left the exact dimensions of my layout (benchwork) flexible, too: I had a defined space (my finished third floor attic) to work within but some flexibility as to where I built aisles and where I put benchwork.  In particular, my concept during this phase evolved from a big table in the center of the room to use of much more shelf-benchwork along the walls of the room with center aisles.  

anyway, I my case, gradually things solidified into my overall idea/theme.  At that point I moved to using a compass for curves to measure and keep radii right, etc., then when I thought I could get everything to fit, I built the benchwork and laid out my candidate design with real track pieces, viewing every situation where a particular thing would not work out like it was as a puzzle to solve.  

I spent nearly a year in this phase, actually.  The layout I ended up with has no problems I can't easily live with and crams a lot of track and 'streets and buildings into the space allowed without seeming cramped.  Itt uses the 3rd dimension a lot - three track loops and five 'Streets loops all tangled together, each winding its way up and down over the "terrain" and in and out/over and under the others.  I've never been happier with anything I've built and it is the first layout I've ever had where I never think about "next time I will . . ." - because this time, there is no need for a next time. 

There is a lot of good advice in this thread.  Lee's grid paper is great.  The idea of laying out the rooms physical dimensions in ink/marker gives you a canvas to work on.  

I would recommend using some masking tape to put on the floor of the room(s) you intend to use to make sure you have adequate access.  You can move the tape around and see if you can reach areas and actually manuever through the space.  Once you have  phantom outline down take measurements and transfer that to the grid paper.

I started using the grid paper as a base and did "sketch" track plans on velum/tracing paper.  This saves wear and tear on the grid paper and you can save sections you like or pick them up and move them around.  Drafting tape can hold them in place until you are happy with the alignment.

If you can't layout all of the track before you start building then consider making 1:1 cardboard templates and using that for missing or not yet purchased pieces.  This will lead to much fewer surprises when you actually start construction.

Over the years I used sketch pads much the same as Lee. I used 1/2"=1'-0" scale using pencils, a gum eraser[often]and a compass for curves in pursuit of designing "druthers" compatible with my fixed "givens" [room size,layout size, island or round the wall, type of track and turnouts, equipment operating clearance,etc?].

Starting and dismantling many layouts over time due to relocating, a number of druthers became givens: for example use of Curtis or Ross turnouts and Gargraves flex track, 42" layout height, 6' o.c. track spacing & 7" overhead clearance above rail top.

Not design/druthers suitable for everyone but specs that worked well for me on large, now dismantled, layouts as well as the small 9x16 "senior citizens" attic operation now underway. And, as one ages it is helpful to keep it simple and easily accessible as much as possible as well as considering what one can fix when, for example, experiencing hand tremors. 

And, I learned that along with many others in O-gauge, I had a tendency to design for too much track and not enough structure and natural area.

 It looks like you already have a good basic idea. If you have the track, spend

an afternoon and just start laying it down on the floor or table if you have one.

Then you get a real idea of what it might look like.

Mine changed several times once I did the basics. The biggest thing was grades.

It looked great on paper, but I had assumed my engines could do better on grades

then they actually could. Plans changed drastically.

Throw down basic loop with a siding, see how things run, have some fun with it...

As has been said above, there is good advice in the responses above.  In my case, I started out with large sheets of graph paper and first sketched out where the framework of the layout was going to be.  I already had the idea of having first an around the wall layout and then a peninsula in the center....so....I sketched out the placement of the "tables" with that in mind.  Then I made sure that the isles were of sufficient width and the framework not so wide so that movement and reach would not be impaired.  This gave me the area that I had to work within which I developed a track plan.  From that point I kept sketching and erasing and re-sketching until I had a plan I liked...all of this with a paper and pencil.  The grid on the paper ensured that I kept the track radius close enough so that the actual laying of track needed very little adjustment.  During the track plan design process, I used a lot of John Armstrong's ideas of what I wanted and had room for and also used Chuck's suggestion of putting masking tape down on the floor which helped a lot to visualize the space.  

I look forward to seeing your process and final plan!!

Alan 

Here is a simple 8 by 15 U shaped layout using O31 O42 and O54 radius realtrax.  

It may give you some additional ideas!

The Real Trax layout I built after using software to iterate its design has the overall track plan in the plan, but the track sections used are significantly different than the plan.

The bottom line is that you need to adapt the the track sections as you build, and it likely will be necessary to hacksaw some custom lengths. Use your track plan as a guide.

Below are some lessons learned about using Real Trax. Also, if you will be using MTH DCS, heed the instructions in Barry Boskowitz's DCS O Gauge Companion regarding STAR wiring.

Each of us needs to do what works best for our own mind.  There is no right or wrong answer here.  Whichever method we choose essentially becomes an extension of our brain.  When we know the tools well enough, we no longer get bogged down in the details of their inner workings.  THAT's when the creativity begins to flow.  But like anything, becoming proficient with any tool takes some time.

DECADES ago, I used the large pad that Lee referred to.  For me, it worked fine in its day 'cause that's what was available then.  Once RR-Track became available (back on 3.5" diskettes!!!), I jumped in and never looked back.  Stay with it if you can.  It's the most comprehensive track-planning tool out there for toy train enthusiasts.  Heck... I'm even using it to polish off my new Standard Gauge layout!

If it doesn't suit your tastes, that's OK too.  There's always pencil and paper!

David

Well, as one who has done it both ways, I'll take the software approach any day, but then I'm very comfortable with computers and software having used/programmed mainframes since 1966 and PCs since 1982. When I did it on paper, even using the tracing paper technique, etc., I got very frustrated. I even bought scale rulers, shape templates and a compass set to help. I've already changed the location for my layout 4 times making me start over with a different room configuration and try different benchwork configurations each time. This has been so much easier using RR-Track for me, but I understand using software is not for everyone.

If the problem is getting started with the software and you want to make the effort, I found a tutorial online by googling "mth train tutorial pdf" and it looks very similar to the one in the v5 manual. I think it's for v3, but I don't believe the basics have changed and it might help you get started with the software. The tutorial starts on page 13. AFAIK, your version of the software is limited to RealTrax and doesn't have all the newer features, like the simulation, but that shouldn't preclude using it to design a layout for your space using RealTrax.

That said, if the tutorial helps and you decide to keep going with the software, let me know and I'll reinstall the starter software so I can help directly with the software. In the meantime, remember that most folks find it hard to reach further than 30"-36". Since your available space is 8x15, that means you'll need access hatches if you try a large table layout vs some form of horseshow. Since you didn't mention the barriers (walls, doors, etc.) for your space, I just put together a few ideas to get you started. The 1st and 4th use O54 for the outer and O42 for the inner. The 2nd and 3rd use O42 for the loops and O54 at the top. Some of these are intended to show the reach problem trying to fit dual mains with O42 and O54 curves in your space.

Software is fine for getting track to fit BUT you need to really take a hard look at the space.  Are you going to be blocking outlets, load center panels, utility cut offs, drains, etc?  You also need to make sure you can actually reach everything you want to or need to and actually get around in the space.

I agree with Lee

Invest in the full RR-Track program, compatible with MTH track. Personally I used Fastrack in my set up, and really, the program is not all that difficult to navigate. Yes, there is a learning curve, but the basics are pretty straight forwad. The tutorial provided is pretty easy to follow.

As with most computer software and other stuff like digital cameras and smartphones, there are a lot of features that the average guy won't use, and for that matter doesn't need. I found that the design process using the program was one of the best parts of whole experience so far. I found that one of the best features of using RR-Track is that you can easily try different track radius to make sure your space will accommodate your plan, and once you decide on a plan, the program will calculate pretty much exactly how much and what lengths of track you will need.

Saves buying a whole bunch of track and hoping for the best.

REV

I started laying the track, re-started, finally got to what I wanted or think I want,

counted each piece (at least 3 times) put in into RR-track and the program said my layout will not work ( the track probably has some play in it).  I did something wrong and am continuing to improve my layout and will learn more about RR Track as time goes on.

Brent

Mark, I totally agree with REV that the full version is worth it. I just have a hard time recommending you pay $80-$110 before you see if you like the version that comes with the R-T-R set. The included version is not crippled, it's just limited to the RealTrax library (which is what you say you're going to use) and doesn't have the simulation feature. There might be some other things too, but none that will keep you from designing a complete layout, especially one to fit your 8x15 space.

I upgraded because I wanted the simulation feature and more track libraries as well as some accessories, buildings, etc. Hopefully, you can use the link I posted to help you get started. If not, many a layout has been designed with paper and pencil, including a few of my own. But even if you figure out how to use RR-Track and end up liking it, I'm not sure what you'd gain by upgrading if you're going to use RealTrax. The simulation feature alone was worth the cost to me, but I doubt it will be to too many others.

Please let us know how you're doing with the software.

Oftentimes many of the smaller pieces aren't needed when actually laying track simply because of the track's flexibility. Other times, the track angle is off too much to join properly in the software, but will join just fine in real life. That's why I recommend not buying little pieces unless you've test fit real track and find you need them. Many who use design software don't even bother joining everything, they just get things close and deal with any problems as they lay the track. I like to make things join because I like to use the simulation feature and I'm sure you know that won't work if things don't join. If you want help, you can always post the rrt file and let others take a look at it. If you do that though, you should start a new thread.

I would like to thank everyone who has given advice. I took the pen and paper method and kind of rough sketched, then I played with the software to get close and then went to space to layout track to see what things will shape up like. While I have quite a ways to go and possibly some redesign I'm getting a feel for what I want and can see it coming along. This is the first time I am doing something other than a tabletop or 4x8 sheet layout. I'm sure to make mistakes and as I run into things I can't figure out I will be sure to ask this vast wealth of knowledge. Hopefully this week I can get some serious work done. Thanks again!!

I'll be looking for it.

Okay folks, please hold your laughter 'til the end!  I am largely computer- illiterate,

so for trackplan design, I use blank paper (not graph) and pencil.  Working with a

scale of 1/2 in. to the foot, I use specifically-sized jar lids and bottle caps.  Since

I'll be using Lionel tubular, I work with four sizes representing a 31, 42, 54 and 72

inch diameter curves.  For any possible crossings, I've made dark-lined templates

for 90- and 45-degrees that I just place behind the main plan and trace it.  Works

for me and I enjoy tinkering with different plans.  I just need to pay attention when

a curve ends into the straight so I cut off the curve in just the right place.  One 8 1/2 X 11 sheet is big enough since the final plan won't be any bigger than 12 ft.

by 16 ft.  Switches are 0-72 and are easy to draw accurately.  For me, it's fun.

     Hoppy