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TRIAL BALLON: 'universal' engine storage yard wiring

PG phil greshoOGR Forum Member

AT THE SUGGESTION OF SEVERAL FOLKS, I'M POSTING HERE ONE THAT STARTED ON THE 'GENERAL' FORUM.  FORGIVE MY TRANSGRESSION, PLEASE....

 

I'd like some considered [the 'exercise' is not trivial] opinion re: the following technique for wiring a stub-ended yard, starting with the rationale behind it....AFTER emphasizing that I wish to operate 'everything' [conventional, TMCC, DCS] under the DCS system:  I have found that when an entire yard full of engines is powered up simultaneously that the DCS signal to a DCS engine is often 'corrupted', typically because a TMCC engine is 'too close' to the desired engine, EVEN when on a different track. I also want to be able to store conventional engines 'anywhere' in the yard, with no distinction/worry about what type of neighbors it has, which of course demands care in that I don't want to supply full voltage [say 18 VAC] to that track when starting up that engine. 

     With that intro, here's the idea:  On each siding, cut the center rail every 2 feet [say] and 'jumper' each resulting gap by an ON/OFF toggle that's located right next to that 'block', with track power supplied only to the 1st piece of track 'downstream' of the turnout that controls that siding.  Thus, to get power [and DCS signal] to the other [bumper] end of the siding requires that all toggles be ON.  Next, when moving the 1st engine into that track, bring it to the end, then turn the last toggle OFF, killing power to that engine.  Now bring the 2nd engine in to the farthest location possible, then turn the next toggle OFF.  ETC ETC ETC.  There is now a yard FULL of engines, with no power to any. 

       Now it's time to remove one of them, any one of those that was 'last in':  Simply set the turnout and throw the 1st toggle to ON.  Power will now be supplied ONLY to that engine.  Start it up, drive it out and run it....unless it's the 2nd engine on that track that you wish to use.  In that case, 'stow' the 1st engine at some convenient location, return to that track in the yard, and switch the 2nd toggle to ON.  Now that engine, and only that engines, gets the DCS signal. [BTW, I'm not (YET) concerned with the 'watch dog' start-up signal....If it's a DCS engine and it starts 'loud & brite', I can deal with that.]

    I THINK I've conveyed the scheme in sufficient detail to be understood.  Clearly its' a  bit complex, but consider the positive aspect:  ONE & ONLY ONE engine of ALL present in the yard gets the power + DCS signal.

   Now for the other, potentially 'fatal', downside:  Sending the DCS signal thru multiple toggles may weaken it so that the whole scheme 'goes up in smoke'. If so, would it help to use DPST toggles, so both HOT and COMMON go thru the toggles?          THAT'S IT, FOLKS!

         

 
phil G
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R RailRideOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBER

I would say "star wire" the main power feed to each siding block. That way, the DCS signal need only travel through one or two toggles. For the record, I don't know if the switches will affect the signal though.

 

What prompted me to answer is I dreamed up the same scheme a few years ago . The only extra I added would be to have dwarf signals along each siding, showing red when the block is off, and yellow when it is on. This would give an easy visual indication of your correct lineup, and which loco is going to start up when you turn on the juice.

 

---PCJ

PG phil greshoOGR Forum Member

PCJ: Let me explain my way again, for just 1 spur siding: The "signal + power feed" is fed to the siding at the entrance ONLY.  That siding is broken up into 'blocks', with a center rail gap between each.  A toggle switch is connected across each gap.  If an engine is parked on the 5th block, ALL 5 toggles between the entrance and that block must be ON in order for that engine to respond. Beyond the 5th block, all toggles are in the OFF mode. Clear?

Barry BroskowitzBarry BroskowitzOGR Forum Member MEMORIALIZED MEMBER

Phil,

 

I believe that by now, based on your initial thread over on the 3-Rail Forum and now over here, that you've learned about everything that you're going to learn about what forum members have to say about our plans.

 

For the sake of completeness, following is my post from your first thread on the 3-Rail Forum:

 

I agree with John. This scheme is way over the top to solve a simple problem. Further, a string of toggle switches only needs one noisy one to mess up the DCS signal big-time. Even if you had each toggle controlling a track section as a "real" siding, instead of as a string of track pieces, you would be weakening the DCS signal through a great many splits.

 

The only issue you really have to deal with is the interference with the DCS signal by some, but by no means all, of your TMCC or Legacy engines. A much more cost-and-time-efective solution is to insert a 22 uH RF choke in line with the offending engine's pickup rulers. (This is discussed of page 152 of The DCS O Gauge Companion 2nd Edition.)

 

As for being able to maneuver engines around each other, you would be best off segregating your conventional engines from those that are command controlled. Then, stack the command controlled engines on sidings any way you like, since each one is individually controlled.

 

If you like, the conventional engines can then use the original scheme that you proposed, as long as you don't put a DCS signal into those sidings.

 

 As John said quite succinctly, it's time for you to decide what to do.
Last edited by Barry Broskowitz
PG phil greshoOGR Forum Member

BB: Thanks much for re-posting your reply, which is a good one, to which I now reply:  1.  The choke idea is probably a good alternative, ESPECIALLY if I don't have 'too many' offenders!  How do I upgrade to your 2nd edition?

2. I MAY just follow your last suggestion, too:  Store ONLY conventional engines on my 'special' sidings....Nice compromise.

Barry BroskowitzBarry BroskowitzOGR Forum Member MEMORIALIZED MEMBER

Phil,

How do I upgrade to your 2nd edition?

Unfortunately, there isn't an "upgrade" available.

 

When the 2d edition, which contains 25% additional content (215 vs. 168 pages), was published, MTH offered a $5 discount for about 30 days for purchasers of the 1st edition. However, that ship sailed almost 2 years ago.

 

You would need to purchase the 2nd edition from MTH's web site as either an eBook ($12.95) or a print book ($29.95), whichever better suits your needs. The two editions have identical content.

 

The link to purchase either version of the 2nd edition iid:

http://www.mthtrains.com/content/60-1279

 

Thanks for your interest!

FM Former Member

Hi Phil,

 

I agree with Barry that it would be best to "fix" the offending TMCC engines and keep you conventional engines segregated.

 

However, I did think of a way to wire things up the way you want with the DCS signal going through no more than one set of switch contacts.  Essentially, the issue is that you want a "lock-out" feature for each toggle unless all the switches ahead of it are turned on.  You could use relays to turn the track power on/off wired in parallel just as PCJ described.  The relays could be controlled by toggle switches wired in series.  That way, the DCS signal is separated from the toggle daisy chain.  It's an even more complex solution to an already complex idea, but it would work.

PG phil greshoOGR Forum Member

Barry:  I shall order the 2nd edition post haste.

Dave:  Thx for the new idea, which I shall study seriously.  As evinced by my post, complexity does bother me!  Too bad there are so many on this forum who run from it!     [BTW, I think Don Grabski contacted you re:  some issues on the big layout that I'm currently building......Please reply off-line.]

PG phil greshoOGR Forum Member

Dave, and PCJ:  I think I understand how the combo of toggles & relays can force the DCS signal  to go thru just 1 toggle rather than many, but what I still don't see is this:  By paralleling the relays, how can you ensure that the ONLY engine that can receive the signal is the closest one to the turnout for that siding?WAIT; maybe I DO see it:  all blocks on the turnout side are ON, but all but the last are devoid of engines....Nothing happens if you fire the relay for an empty block.  Just fix your error & proceed.  And more: NO signal goes thru ANY toggle; just thru one relay.   Is that it?  Nah....I'm still confused!

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