TROLLEYS RETURNING TO WASHINGTON, DC

Trolleys rank among my favorite rail conveyances, and make up a big part of my O gauge and Large Scale collections. As one who remembers them well, and who never passes up an opportunity to ride them, it's great to see them making a comeback in some locations.

I've never met a trolley I didn't like!

"Tracks were installed on H Street during a recent overhaul, and the first trolley cars are to run down them in the summer of 2013."

Trouble is they bought the cars years ago and I expect in Spring 2013 they will be declared unserviceable and a new round of procurement and delays will ensue.

My memory must be fading, but who is going to operate the trolley system -- Metro or the DC government? Unfortunately, neither organization inspires a lot of confidence in my mind.

Poppyl

Admittedly, I haven't been in the NE or SE part of DC in years but I believe most of it was and still is among the most poverty and crime ridden areas in America.

Yep, I love trolleys but have the DC folks taken a stroll around their town lately? Or looked at their schools or their budget?

Coincididentally, I was in DC maybe 25 years ago when the former carbarn on on 14th and Decatur street was rebuilt.

The city contractor ripped out EVERY piece of existing trackage that was preserved in the outside entrances, even though all of it was in perfect concrete. I have pictures, that special work was in better shape than the current trackage which is rebuilt and maintained by SEPTA in Philly. There was no excuse for this action.

For all the problems the article mentions regarding maintaining a streetcar system, it would be preferable to have them in dedicated rights-of-way. However, I am glad to see them coming back.

For those interested and in the area, The National Capital Trolley Museum in Silver Spring Maryland is bringing out and running today a 1930s DC Transit car. This car is not often seen by the public nor has it been operated for the public in quite some time.


Poppyl: Metro isn't even competent to run their own system nor is the Metro system even in somewhat decent condition. Metro has got to be the WORST transit system in the country and that is coming from someone who uses it 5 day a week.

We get the local D.C. tv stations up here, and wasn't the Metro down again just a few days ago? Looks like that's where the money should be spend, not clogging the streets with trolleys.

We used to visit Washington...a few decades ago, they had a deal on Saturday or Sunday where you could travel on the Metro all over the place, for just five bucks all day long.It was in great shape back then, and had street access almost every where.
For a tourist that was a great deal. It even went out to Arlington to the National Cemetery.

Ed Mullan

quote:

Originally posted by Ed Mullan:
We get the local D.C. tv stations up here, and wasn't the Metro down again just a few days ago? Looks like that's where the money should be spend, not clogging the streets with trolleys.

The Red line was closed along 2 stations due to cracked rail.

quote:

We used to visit Washington...a few decades ago, they had a deal on Saturday or Sunday where you could travel on the Metro all over the palace, for just five bucks all day long.It was in great shape back then, and had street access almost every where.
For a tourist that was a great deal. It even went out to Arlington to the National Cemetery.

Still goes to all those places and a lot more since a few decades ago. I could and would use myself for my commute, but it's still cheaper to drive vs. cost of Metro and their parking fee, despite the DC area having traffic congestion in the top 3 just about every year.

The Metro system is basically running at overflow capacity - basic maintenance is hard to do when no matter what you close to work on, you tick off a bunch of very vocal people; still, it's clear that the system needs an overhaul in all aspects of operations and costs, yet it is unclear how that can be done given that VA, MD and DC.....and Congress all have their hands on its oversight. Get those last bumnch of chuckle heads involved and you know just how fast anything can be totallty frelled.

Here's a photo of one of the cars being tested.

quote:

Originally posted by mwb:

quote:

Originally posted by Ed Mullan:
We get the local D.C. tv stations up here, and wasn't the Metro down again just a few days ago? Looks like that's where the money should be spend, not clogging the streets with trolleys.

The Red line was closed along 2 stations due to cracked rail.

quote:

We used to visit Washington...a few decades ago, they had a deal on Saturday or Sunday where you could travel on the Metro all over the palace, for just five bucks all day long.It was in great shape back then, and had street access almost every where.
For a tourist that was a great deal. It even went out to Arlington to the National Cemetery.

Still goes to all those places and a lot more since a few decades ago. I could and would use myself for my commute, but it's still cheaper to drive vs. cost of Metro and their parking fee, despite the DC area having traffic congestion in the top 3 just about every year.

The Metro system is basically running at overflow capacity - basic maintenance is hard to do when no matter what you close to work on, you tick off a bunch of very vocal people; still, it's clear that the system needs an overhaul in all aspects of operations and costs, yet it is unclear how that can be done given that VA, MD and DC.....and Congress all have their hands on its oversight. Get those last bumnch of chuckle heads involved and you know just how fast anything can be totallty frelled.

On at least two occasions lately, brake discs have fallen off trains as well.

From Wednesday to Friday, there was some problem. Wednesday was a down track circuit (an all too frequent occurrence) to Thursday's cracked rail, to a computer/radio failure early Friday AM. Since the 2009 crash, mid-day weekday track work is a common occurrence along with evening work after rush hour. Just about every weekend has sections of each rail line closed for heavy work. Now they want to jack up the prices. I DO use the parking anywhere from 2 to 5 days per week depending on the week. Parking is $5 a day. Lately, I have been taking the Montgomery County RideOn bus that leaves from my neighborhood entrance up to the train station - I save approximately $2 - $3 a day (not much but that adds up fast) plus I can get some work done. Metro IS (for me at least) extremely convenient as there is a station at my school, I can get work done, and there is little parking at my school. For some, driving may be better but the combination of traffic, parking, and the ability to get some stuff done on the train is what keeps me riding.

After the 2009 accident, improvements HAVE been made but the system is still a LONG way from being anywhere like it used to be. Soon the 7000 series cars will be arriving and the 1000 series cars will be retired, continued improvements to restore automatic operation are being done, near constant track work, etc, etc. Regardless, it will be years before the system is back to what it used to be.

Baltimore has the Trolley Museum, I believe they have it online. Some of the stock there is irreplaceable. You could see the signs downtown in the form of green rings with a bit of rust that were hooks for wire on the corners of some buildings about 15 feet up.

Little Rock has a bit of Trolley too, but not very useful other than for tourists who wish not to have to change buses or walk/park downtown. Those cars were built in Iowa.

I am familiar with the Red Line Metro. For the time decades ago, it was THE way to Washington. Free parking, a few dollars a day and you have the whole city at your feet.

The last time I rode it out of the city after the fireworks, the crowds filled the extra long trains which would whine as they struggled with standing room only. It could fill several trains in a few minutes and still made no impact on the size of the crowd there. It was a very... touchy situation with so many elbows and ribs so close to the edge of the platform.

As a last note, I recall Metro Cars being heavy hauled north into PA for rebuilds or work. Later they come down south to DC.

There are places around DC you don't even go, day or night. I have no idea what they must be like now that the entire Metro and City has grown much beyond the Beltway like a Malignant Cancer.

Trolley systems would be a good fit for towns up to about 15,000 people as long they ran into the necessary areas where people don't really need a car to get mail etc.

If the streetcars prove successful, perhaps GM, et al, wil buy them out and bring back the busses!

One small problem still exists for the trolley system. It has no electricity.

DC just went ahead and did what they wanted and installed two rail track no the orginal 3 rail track that was used years ago. DC has a law prohibiting the installation of overhead electrical systems. So there they stand with a trolley line with no power. I still haven't heard of any comprimise to allow this to go forward. I'll be surprised if they EVER run in DC.

The cars sat in storage in Europe for years until they were recently shipped to Baltimore I believe. Maybe there using them. I've lost track of what there up to.

Years ago I work on the replacement of DC's traffic control system and we got to cut throuth the tracks what a real pain!

Jamie

quote:

Originally posted by CSX FAN:
One small problem still exists for the trolley system. It has no electricity.

DC just went ahead and did what they wanted and installed two rail track no the orginal 3 rail track that was used years ago. DC has a law prohibiting the installation of overhead electrical systems. So there they stand with a trolley line with no power. I still haven't heard of any comprimise to allow this to go forward. I'll be surprised if they EVER run in DC.

The cars sat in storage in Europe for years until they were recently shipped to Baltimore I believe. Maybe there using them. I've lost track of what there up to.

Years ago I work on the replacement of DC's traffic control system and we got to cut throuth the tracks what a real pain!

Jamie

Well, maybe whomever approved that questionable decision to put tracks in the streets that can't be used by electrically powered trolleys was thinking of running horsecars? But then, there can be emissions problems as well.

El Reno OK runs a restores early 1920s trolley as a tourist thing using some original street trackage. No overhead or conduit power. No grades to climb either. A big block Chevy engine under the floor drives one truck.

Ed Bommer

I went digging for info and don't see any concrete answers other that they claim they will electrify the system starting construction this spring. Wonder if they finaly cut a deal?

Here is a link to the system map of the future

DC trolley map

Jamie

So we have the WMATA running Metro and the busses and the DC DOT attempting to enter the trolley business. Yikes!!

Poppyl

The ban on overhead wire was not due to aesthetics. In New York City, as well as Washington, the issue was electrolysis. Destruction of gas mains by current leakage. That is why the conduit plows in New York City and Washington had two contacts, positive and negative. The answer is two trolley poles and double overhead, as was used in other cities.

i don't see this happening. The usual suspects will crawl out from under their rocks and kill it.

quote:

Originally posted by joetrains:
The ban on overhead wire was not due to aesthetics. In New York City, as well as Washington, the issue was electrolysis. Destruction of gas mains by current leakage. That is why the conduit plows in New York City and Washington had two contacts, positive and negative. The answer is two trolley poles and double overhead, as was used in other cities.

Hmmmm. Odd that Philadelphia, Baltimore, Los Angeles, San Francisco and a host of other cities using a single, overhead trolley conductor with rails in the street as the power cicuit's common did not seem to face such an issue. And I am sure they also had gas and water mains under their pavements as well. Other than for trackless trolleys, I've not come across any photos of rail trolleys having double poles and overhead wiring for the + and - sides of their power circuits.

Ed Bommer

quote:

Originally posted by Ed Bommer:

quote:

Originally posted by joetrains:
The ban on overhead wire was not due to aesthetics. In New York City, as well as Washington, the issue was electrolysis. Destruction of gas mains by current leakage. That is why the conduit plows in New York City and Washington had two contacts, positive and negative. The answer is two trolley poles and double overhead, as was used in other cities.

Hmmmm. Odd that Philadelphia, Baltimore, Los Angeles, San Francisco and a host of other cities using a single, overhead trolley conductor with rails in the street as the power cicuit's common did not seem to face such an issue. And I am sure they also had gas and water mains under their pavements as well. Other than for trackless trolleys, I've not come across any photos of rail trolleys having double poles and overhead wiring for the + and - sides of their power circuits.

Ed Bommer

Most systems had a copper ground return cable buried under the tracks. this collected most of the stray currents.

The map link that Ed Mullan provided is interesting. They plan to connect Georgetown and Benning Road, neighborhoods that are on opposite ends of the socioeconomic spectrum. Given the progress over the past fifty years still don't see this happening.

Ed, Baltimore's Trolley system was extensive and indeed ran on the Belgian brick above very large water mains and gas mains as well as who else knows what is down below.

Quite some time ago, there was a failed 100 year + old main under Argonne Ave and I think it was a 96 incher. The location of that main was pretty close to two trolley lines and near one turn around.

If you wish to explore further back, Gettysburg Battlefield had Trolley system through the battlefield proper. However the Carbarn downtown was torn down back in the 60's long after the track has been taken up and gone.

And to another poster who mentioned social economics, there is a Light rail that runs from Baltimore downtown north to about Timonium and maybe a bit beyond by now, perhaps to Hunt Valley.

I have heard stories third hand when thugs will ride the line all the way up north to take advantage of the people who may not be as... savvy as the ones inner city.

I for one would love to see a increase in the trolley system and connect towns and small cities again. It will relieve some of the traffic and get some of the buses off as well.

Maybe even the Median Strips of the Freeways and Interstates can be used to run Subway or light rail aka Metro or Baltimore/Philly tradition. I am pretty sure that in a future with higher gas prices, it may do very well.

Dare I even say that the Corridor with the 150 mph trains the highest form of Trolley service in the USA? It would be great to see more Corridors connecting across the USA as well. It will put those of us able to travel without being grouped by the TSA.

London tubes use FOUR rails. Two running, one hot, one ground.

And what IS the difference between "street car" and "light rail'? Street car is LRT light?

quote:

Now they want to jack up the prices. I DO use the parking anywhere from 2 to 5 days per week depending on the week. Parking is $5 a day. Lately, I have been taking the Montgomery County RideOn bus that leaves from my neighborhood entrance up to the train station - I save approximately $2 - $3 a day (not much but that adds up fast) plus I can get some work done.

It's an hour ride in and an hour ride back for me if everything works perfectly and then a 3 mile drive from the station's lot. There is a station ride at my place of work, but it's sardine city standing room only on my commute so it's basically 2 hours of my life wasted every day I use the Metro. Factor in 2 rush hour fares from one end to the other + parking and the gallon of gas and driving still wins. I wish it were not so.

quote:

Regardless, it will be years before the system is back to what it used to be.

I have difficulties believing it will ever be what it was given the ever increasing ridership numbers vs. operational capacity.

It's much like the DC Beltway, just about the time that they get done widening and adding lanes is when the highway achieves maximum capacity - barely able to tread water and keep from drowning....

Still, I'll welcome anything that makes gettting around more functional,

quote:

Originally posted by Farmer_Bill:
The map link that Ed Mullan provided is interesting. They plan to connect Georgetown and Benning Road, neighborhoods that are on opposite ends of the socioeconomic spectrum. Given the progress over the past fifty years still don't see this happening.

Really no different than the Orange line linking New Carrolton and Vienna.

I've only lived around here for 6.5 years, but its been plenty long enough to totally give up on mass transit in this area. I used to take the metro from Woodley Park to Alexandria to get to work, and my hope (and pipe dream, honestly), was to get through the week without some sort of delay or service disruption. I tried taking it from work in Alexandria to Catholic U for school, but soon discovered that even in rush hour traffic I could beat the metro to school, so I gave up on that and just paid the $.75 or whatever it was for a meter until they timed out for the night. At 9:30 when class let out...HAHAHA what a joke the metro is late night (and most weekends for that matter).
I lived in Tysons for a while and it'd take almost an hour and a half to go from West Falls Church to king street... even in moderately bad normal beltway traffic it was 45 minutes tops (not to mention the numerous back way options when the beltway was totally jammed), but usually I could go door to door in 23 minutes.
The metro doesnt work because its too slow, and its horribly unreliable. The busses are worse, because they sit in the same traffic that I can sit in, in my own clean, non-stinky car by myself with my own music. This whole Dulles rail thing is going to be a major disaster. it'll be 2+ hours to DC from Dulles and it'll probably cost $15 each way.
Its no wonder people are driving downtown and paying $17 a day or whatever it costs now to park... its worth it!
The ONLY way for this streetcar to be anything more than a novelty is for it to have a dedicated lane. If its going to sit in traffic with everyone else, then its nothing more than a bus that cant change lanes (although with Metro busses thats not necessarily a bad thing). If it can run light to light without getting caught in gridlock, they might be on to something if they can get their act together, because there's a lot of places the metro doesnt go or doesnt go to in a particularly direct manner. I'd like to see it work, because this area can use any help it can get, but it has to actually work as a functional and reliable transit line, not just be a "hey, look what we did!" project.

Orange line down again cracked rail hope to be back to normal for PM rush.

Boilermaker we live in the same neighborhood.

I used to commute from Chantilly to Landover everyday. Never took the metro even in the gas shortage. Way to much of a hastle and crime factor on the train over there.

Jamie

quote:

Originally posted by CSX FAN:
Orange line down again cracked rail hope to be back to normal for PM rush.

That could get real ugly really fast!

quote:

I used to commute from Chantilly to Landover everyday. Never took the metro even in the gas shortage. Way to much of a hastle and crime factor on the train over there.

I will still take the Orange & Red for my commute from Dunn Loring to Bethesda, but that's when my car is getting serviced. Or, I'll ride into Crystal City with my wife and catch the Yellow & Red..... But the cost + time simply does not work yet vs. just driving.

The fact that an underground two-rail conduit system was used to prevent electrolysis is incontrovertable. The original engineering discussions between the horsecar lines and the city to permit an electric franchise are in the historic files of the New York Public Library and I have reviewed them. It was a safety issue, opposed by the francise lines because of the extra expense. The issue was stray currents causing dangerous leaks in gas mains, and later telephone interference. This is not hearsay. The City of Cincinatti had the same problem, which was resolved by use of dual overhead and two-trolley poles.

quote:

Originally posted by Gary Hauver:
If the streetcars prove successful, perhaps GM, et al, wil buy them out and bring back the busses!

When they resurrected the Long Beach PE Line (MTA Blue Line) in 1989, I'd drive my kids along the route while they were testing, then took them on it for the inaugural run back in 1989. I told them back then that sometime in the future, someone would come along with a ballot initiative offering to "take over" the operation of the system and that they should make sure it doesn't happen again.

While NCL didn't take over the Los Angeles systems (PE and LARy) the owners of NCL did have a strong influence on the original MTA and local politicians with the opening of the GM Van Nuys and South Gate Plants and the Firestone tire operations. There is also some speculation that one of the contributing causes of the Watts Riots in the mid 1960's was related to the loss of the PE since there were no direct routes from Watts to the Westside, where many people living in Watts worked. The bus routes were convoluted and required more transfers.

Dominic: To attempt an answer to your question; the difference between streetcars and light rail: Light Rail is most similar to the old interurban lines. Cars are generally faster, run mostly on private right away, take fares on board the cars, make longer runs between regular stops, and are thought of as being more comfortable.

Streetcars are what the name implies: they run on city streets and provide local service, the new ones are lower, and lighter than LRV's, and they provide many stops as part of their service.

Both LRV's and Streetcars are powered by overhead catenary and modern pantographs mounted on the car roofs, (rarely use trolley poles, any more, except on the historical systems in certain cities). Their power is generally 600 volts, usually DC although I understand that new developments are being proposed to make them operate on AC using modern electronics for motor control. AC power is much easier and cheaper to provide over the length of an electric car line, either LRV or Streetcar. The primary difference is their speed capability and the distance they travel between stops. Portland, OR has both a Light Rail System as well as a Streetcar system. For a short distance, both vehicles use the same track.

Paul Fischer

Thanks.

City of Portland Streetcar does share some tracks with the Tri-Met MAX. Also There are some "heritage" cars wich runs on the Streetcar Tracks, but have been retofitted with the moderen electrical collection equipement.

Houston I think uses 750V DC.

quote:

Boilermaker we live in the same neighborhood.

Huh, look at that. We'll have to meet up sometime.

quote:

Originally posted by joetrains:
The fact that an underground two-rail conduit system was used to prevent electrolysis is incontrovertable. The original engineering discussions between the horsecar lines and the city to permit an electric franchise are in the historic files of the New York Public Library and I have reviewed them. It was a safety issue, opposed by the francise lines because of the extra expense. The issue was stray currents causing dangerous leaks in gas mains, and later telephone interference. This is not hearsay. The City of Cincinatti had the same problem, which was resolved by use of dual overhead and two-trolley poles.

I have no problem believing that the best engineering was a two pole system. But in DC (that is native talk for Washington) the plow-center rail was only used inside the center city around the monuments and major government buildings. Out side a preset zone, the cars stopped, the plow was disconnected (in a pit) and the cars ran on standard single overhead poles.

ray

I'll have to ask one of my old geology professors about the relationship between soil conditions and elecTROLLEYsis.

Rail is the most energy efficient form of transportation. Years back availabilty of 25 cents per gallon gas most lilkely killed the 1000's of local trolley systems that were in every state. Now with gasoline approaching $4 per gallon, people are again utilitzing public transportation. Even government owned Amtrak's ridership is at a record high-over 30 million passengers in the last fiscal year!

The powers that be in San Antonio are talking about bringing back trolleys since the tracks were never removed, thus saving the expense of installing them, but are getting a lot of flack from citizens groups who claim, rightly that the Via buses we already have are making their routes about town mostly empty so why add yet another empty conveyance. Historically, the San Antonio city council usually gets it's way.

News flash! Since government has been growing at a great rate, employment in D C is at a high..the city government posted a 240 million dollar surplus!

Be interesting to see what happens rail wise with any of that money.

 

Ed Mullan