Upgrading conventional locomotives to DCS??

Note that some locomotives, even the MTH PS/1 models, can take a bit more work to do the upgrade.  I converted the MTH General 4-4-0 to PS/2, and it was a PITA to fit the tether and the tach encoder into the locomotive.  I had to do significant surgery on the shell, and the tether connector to get it to fit.  The tach encoder required a custom mount as the standard one would not fit into the shell.

From readings posted on the site, isn't it fairly accepted that, unless it is a Proto Premier, or some road name not made again in 2 or 3, or you just "have to have that engine" that one is better off to sell/dispose of the older engines and buy the engine factory made (new or used) for ps 2/3....if it exists and is reasonable?

I know the above is not a hard and fast rule, but is it not usually the fact, again...depending?

Greg

Why is it so **** expensive to upgrade these?!?! An N scale decoder cost $35-50. I have to admit I'm becoming increasingly frustrated with O gauge. My Digitrax Zephyr controller for my N scale layout cost less than $200 plus another $100 for decoders for each of my 3 locomotives. That's $300 all-in. Sounds like bringing digital control to my O gauge layout is going to cost at least double that AND involve some significant installation hassles. Why?!? I get why an O locomotive is more expensive - more powerful motors, smoke, sound effects, electro couplers, etc. I can see no reason why the controllers are 2-3 times more expensive. A circuit board is a circuit board. Then on top of all that there's the issue of compatibility between brands because Lionel and MTH can't seem to agree on things. I might just stick to conventional power. That or I hope the move to using wifi enabled devices, such as smartphones, as controllers will drive the costs down to a more affordable price point in the not too distant future. 

Some of it is the "Just Because" factor. But as far as I know, and I don't know too much, but if you want DCS in an engine it's either a ProtoSound 2, or 3. With no outside competition they will sell for what the market will bear. Of course you are paying for more than just the cost to manufacture, you're paying for R&D, tooling, etc, etc, etc. When the patent runs out other companies may produce a DCS compatible encoder if they feel the market will justify the initial investment. With no competition a product will seek it's own level on the market. Of course competition is only good for the consumer, profit  margins fall, and new product development may fall off as well. Or the development of the next generation of DCS that will not be backwardly compatible with what has been on the market for awhile. A similar model seams to be working for Apple.

I don't think you're accurately assessing the costs for command in three rail O gauge.  You're only considering the costs of DCS and PS2 upgrades which are a more expensive system than the basic TMCC/Legacy command setup, and much more expensive than a barebones basic DCC system..  With DCS, you have no choice but to upgrade the whole shooting match in each loco, including sound, hence the $200 cost per loco.

Also, if you add sound to that DCC controller in N gauge, you're in for another $70-100 or so. And the electronics for N gauge are not as expensive as O gauge because the amperage involved is much less in N gauge.  And a Digitrax wireless system is more like $500-600 than $200 as I recall.  So it's a bit apples and oranges from a cost and performance standpoint.  The DCS system at around $300 is already wireless.

As one alternative to consider: "upgrade" your locos (perhaps only the conventional ones) to TMCC/Legacy, which is more modular, rather than DCS,  via the Electronic Railroad Co. TMCC decoders and buy the new Legacy cab-1L and its command base at a discount house like Charles Ro for about $190 (less than all DCC wireless systems by half). You are then able to get command control and upgrade two locos for not whole lot more than than you spent on the Digitrax DCC wired controller and those inexpensive DCC decoders.  And you'll have wireless control and the possibility of adding sound later.

I realize you've probably considered DCS because you already have one MTH PS3 loco which is command equipped.  And some will consider that installing an ERR command module will be "downgrading" that loco because you'll lose the PS3 features.  But for the other two locos, TMCC/Legacy makes more sense to me for all sorts of reasons, including cost and availability.  The alternative is to restrict yourself to the expense of PS2 upgrades (and PS3,  if and when they're available) and DCS, unless you also purchase the cab-1L and command base in addition to the DCS system.  If you move towards the Legacy/TMCC direction as an initial venture, it's a bit cheaper to start with, and the basic command equipment (cab-1L and command base) is about $100 cheaper than DCS to start with.  You can then purchase DCS for your PS3 loco(s) as money and time allow.

If you do not have the space to operate many locomotives now, why not put off purchasing them until you have more room to run them. In the mean time you could be saving these funds, learning more about DCS [and TMCC] and have a better idea of what engines you like best. And maybe even get them, in the future, on the secondary market at a much lower cost.

Another factor to consider is that DCC with sound isn't nearly as cost competitive as a simple DCC decoder.  Also, since HO or N is so much lighter, the power components are much smaller and cheaper.

And, the real reason, there are a host of DCC manufacturers, and only one DCS or TMCC/Legacy manufacturer.

IF one goes the TMCC mod route to run on DCS, what functions are you able to access via DCS? I am thinking of doing my stg gauge CMT Reading Camel Back with ERR boards including Railsounds.

Steve

DCS can control all the functions of an ERR board, including locomotive function and sounds, to my knowledge. Jon Z. would know for sure .

Let's say "most of the functions".  For normal operations, it works very well.  However, for things where you need the SET key, you're out of luck.  I'm hoping that the new software for the TIU (if it ever gets released), will include an emulated SET key to resolve that deficiency.

Upgrade kits are available through MTH Club for considerably less than $200.  Williams diesels are simple to upgrade, but I do feel MTH is better quality.  In many cases upgrade is not economically justifiable, as is noted above, but there may be emotional attachment to a loco, like my 65 year old Lionels which I am upgrading to PS2.  I have done all my can-motored locos, because I like them.  They are also nicely broken in which makes for smooth running.

Until recently I worked for a small company in Redmond, WA that produces a video game console. We introduced a new one late last year and the R&D costs alone were several hundred million dollars, never mind the tooling costs. Even at $500 a pop the company pretty much makes no money selling them. Like Amazon with their Kindle, the profits are from the content. I totally get that these things cost money. MTH and Lionel each creating their own proprietary systems and not making those systems available to others is only going to hurt them in the long run. At this point there is no compelling reason for me to purchase a DCS or TMCC locomotive because I don't want to spend hundred of dollars on a remote control system that will essentially lock me into buying trains from just once company. You mention Apple as being an example of how a locked ecosystem is good for a company but you have it totally wrong. iOS has been a huge success because anybody can develop for it. Not just software either. There are thousands of add on pieces of hardware for iOS. Camera lenses, cases, Bluetooth enabled devices, etc., etc. Lionel seems to have (finally) gotten the message on this and has opened up their protocols and hopefully MTH will follow. It is incredibly annoying that the other model railroad scales have figured this out but O gauge seems to be trailing behind. I suspect it's one reason why the other scales are more affordable. 

Well I really miss spoke there......... I was thinking hardware, not O.S. or software, and upon consideration it's a poor example. I suppose my logic is better followed if you look at some of the console game systems, not being backwardly compatible. But even that is a poor example, because no one, (that I know of) has made a game system that will support PS2 games for example. And if they have please take mercy on me. I have a thought and am just not able to put a really good example out there. It's part of what I would call a captive market. IE: you have DCS, so you can only, (for full feature use) look at Proto Sound Equiped engines. I know you can run TMCC with the remote, but you gotta have that system too. Thats why I went DCS, not because of any feature DCS boasted. Solely because I just like the way the MTH engines I have run. So much better, Slow speed, than the Lionel, or Williams, on conventional control. Which kinda stinks a little. I have some 027 switches and really want a BNSF engine, but everything I have found with PS2 or PS3 is not gonna clear those switch machines................ I'm running a MTH AS616 which is supposed to need 031, but a slight trimming of switch machine covers and all is good.

The appeal of Williams is cost and they also make a couple of engines I can't find elsewhere. I went O gauge because I wanted something my kids could enjoy and thanks to the operating accessories this is one area where O gauge is ahead of the other scales. I've seen some of the Williams locomotives in person and they're definitely not as nice as your average MTH locomotive. Since my layout is more of a toy train set than a model railroad I'm fine with there being less detail. I also won't cry as much if the kids ever drop one! Plus I think the whole idea of realism in O gauge is kind of odd (though I'm always impressed by the guys who do it well!) No matter how much effort you put into detailing and weathering a locomotive you're still going to have that third rail running down the middle of the track which is completely unrealistic.

I assume ERR is Electric RR? I saw their boards but got the impression that they only worked with TMCC. I've had horrible luck with Lionel stuff to the point that I'm extremely reluctant to buy anything from them again. For that reason and the fact that I already have two MTH locomotives I've been leaning towards DCS. 

ERR is the Electric RR Co.  It was founded by Lionel's current chief technology officer and Lionel now markets their products after acquiring their assets.  It works with TMCC and Legacy, but if you have a command base (either TMCC or Legacy), it will work with the DCS handheld if you buy the appropriate cable to link the DCS TIU to the Lionel command base.

For your kids, I'd suggest you look into the Lion Chief sets which are compatible with DCS and Legacy command operation, but each kid gets a remote to control their own locomotive.  An entire set could be purchased this past Christmas for as little as $120-150, including rolling stock and track, as well as the locomotive and remote.  The forthcoming Lion Chief Plus locos also have their own remotes and will be considerably more affordable than Legacy locos, not much more expensive than Williams, and potentially less costly than PS3 Rail King locos.  If cost and kids are an issue, this is another route to consider for future purchases.

Another thing to mention from a compatibility stand point is that you can run many versions of the lionel software engines with the mth dcs remote.

So in theory could I remove the PS board and install an ERR board into my MTH engines? I don't plan on using a remote since MTH and Lionel are both working on iOS apps that eliminate the need to spend $200 on a dedicated remote. Plus the Lionel app looks to be a lot simpler to operate than the Legacy remote. Basically I want to be able to buy a receiver/track interface device (Lionel base station or MTH TIU) along with the appropriate boards for my existing locomotive fleet and control it from my phone or iPad. I've installed a sound decoder and speaker into one of my Kato locomotives and I can't imagine that installing a new board into a relatively spacious O gauge would be anymore difficult. Big thing for me is being able to upgrade and run just about any locomotive digitally as I can with N scale. 

No.  When you say "just drop in" I think of "DCC-ready" N/HO engines which meant the 8-pin socket.  Well, that was great if all you wanted was motor control and maybe a light or 2.  But if you add sound, maybe a smoke unit, more lights, a coupler, etc. etc. things get complicated and that's one reason you don't see "Command-ready" engines in O-gauge.

That MTH chose to include DCC capability in their PS3 O-gauge engines is an interesting twist.  One idea is to wait and see if DCC gains more traction in O.  With the on-going activity in DCC-control via smartphones, tablets and such it may be that DCC for O may your best "command-control" solution.  Most of the guys here are already (heavily) invested in Lionel TMCC/Legacy or MTH DCS (or both) so you're actually in a somewhat unusual position.

True, if you want sound in N scale it's far from a drop-in process. I had to use a milling machine on my Kato locomotive to make a cavity to fit the speaker. My point is more that the software end seems to be pretty universal. I can use a TCS decoder in a Kato locomotive being run by a Digitrax controller. With O it seems like you have two competing standards.

This is old news to the folks here.  You can do some searches and read endless commentary about Legacy/TMCC versus DCS and DCC.  You can get into the hobby with conventional at a very cheap level and even control them remotely.

If you want the latest and greatest features with Cruise, synchronized smoke and sounds your going to need to pick a brand of controller and go with it.

At this point, other than some Lionel remakes of CLassics, the motors are DC and you can put an ERR into a MTH, or put PS-2 into Lionel.  Basic control and cruise for Lionel TMCC is about $120 and sound and your up around $200.  PS-2 is $180 ot $150 for club members.  Legacy is not an upgradeable feature, you have to buy a Lionel Engine with Legacy, and there are different types of sound systems.

Might be worth your effort to go to hobby shop and have both systems full demonstrated for you.

In the end, either manufactures train can be run conventionally.   G

That may be the best part!  When all else fails conventional control generally still works just fine.

Also - MTH is due to have a smart phone app come out some time this year to allow use of the your phone instead of the dedicated remote.  You will however need some piece of hardware to link your phone to the mth tiu.  think blue-tooth reciever with a plug in connection to the tiu.  (I'm not an authority on this - it was in the last catalog)

I have seen quite a number of the older MTH PS/2 5V boards drop dead for no apparent reason.  I have three of them lined up on my bench waiting for replacement boards to come in!  That's not to say that MTH or PS/2 is bad, it just illustrates that both companies can have issues, and indeed both companies do have issues at times.

If you're picking for reliability, that's not a burning reason to go with either Lionel or MTH, both are pretty close in that department.

That about sums it up.  Say what you will about standards designed by committee (DCC) but success speaks for itself.   Aside from MTH introducing DCS into HO, are there any other successful command control systems in HO?

I suppose all this has been discussed before but the it must have been a real conundrum to design a command-control system that is/was backward compatible with the O-gauge AC voltage standard.  It's simply a pain-in-the-rear to put a command signal on a voltage that goes to zero 120 times per seconds.  Lionel and MTH created hi-frequency (and proprietary) signals that kind-of-sort-of ride on the low-frequency 60 Hz power signal.  OTOH, DCC took the bull by the horns and simply stated by fiat that the power signal is one and the same as the command signal.  Night and day.  Bottom line is you don't see any threads about how the DCC command signal is flakey, noisy, intermittent or whatever. Yet, you will encounter many threads about such in TMCC/Legacy and/or DCS.

Also, a sinewave as used in O-gauge is an inefficient method of delivering power to a model train using modern semiconductor technology and DC motors requiring capacitance in the engine to ride through the frequently vanishing voltage.  OTOH, DCC is very efficient.  So in the big scheme of things, given modern semiconductor technology, it is cheaper to build a DCC power source and command system than a traditional O-gauge AC power source with a proprietary command system.  As stated earlier, as you are not dragging a baggage-cart of AC technology, you might want to see how DCC plays out before buying more 60 Hz AC engines.  I believe there are more N/HO operators than O and hence presumably more effort toward DCC-compatible controller software for smartphones/tablets/laptops to replace proprietary (expensive) hand-held controllers.  So if the software is cheaper (more plentiful) and the hardware is cheaper (technically simpler) that's what I call a prima facie case.  All this in my opinion of course.

Stan, I want to play with my trains now, and I don't see any DCC solutions that are compatible with the 60-70 engines I have.  I think I'll stick with TMCC/Legacy and DCS.

GRJ, you and me both!  But isn't that the point?  The OP essentially has a blank slate while 99% on this forum have a boatload of engines that work (and work fine thank you) with our TMCC/Legacy and/or DCS systems.  I am commenting on the OP's perspective of a relative newcomer coming from the HO/N world where command-control followed a different evolutionary path.

True Stan, but he is still faced with the fact that if he wants to go O-gauge (and not 2-rail), he has to consider one of the two available choices.  I'm with you, I wish it was otherwise, but it really isn't.

Yep, it's a pretty blank slate. I just want to make sure that any engine I now own or may want to own will be able to be run remotely. With N scale this is as simple as buying and installing a decoder which is fairly inexpensive and easy (unless you want sound, then it's not so easy!)

Sounds like my best option is going to be the ERR boards combined with a TMCC base station and wifi module being controlled by the iOS app. Bonus is I see ERR make operating car boards which is awesome since some of the operating cars (like the milk and horse coral cars) tend to be very finicky when it comes to voltage. Do wish their site was a little more clear about what they offer and what is compatible with what. Digitrax do a great job in this respect. 

I've played with the DCS, Legacy and CAB remotes at the local shop and while they're all nice none are nice enough to justify their high price tags, especially knowing iOS apps are on the way. 

Well, I suspect for any control system you buy you'll want to have at least one native remote that matches the system.

I swing both ways, I use a lot of the ERR stuff, and I also have installed a number of the PS/2 upgrades in some of my stuff.  I have a number of operating cars that have been converted to TMCC, and they do work well.  It's also nice to be able to run around the layout and dump logs wherever I feel like.

That's...  um...

Then you have to run your body around to pick them up.

I may be wrong, but it was my impression that you either buy a Commander for $70, or if you want cruise, a Cruise Commander for $90, not both.

If you want synchronized smoke you'll have to upgrade the puffer to a fan driven unit.  This is where I get foggy... Lionel seems to have a bad track record with the reliability of their fan driven smoke units,  but I'm not sure that either is "plug and play" with an ERR board.  I'm also not sure how much either unit costs to buy direct from the manufacturer, but that's a consideration.

Frank: you're right about sound in N scale not being worth it. Installing a sound decoder involves milling a speaker mount and clotting slots in the body to route the wires. I have access to a friend's machine shop so it wasn't too difficult for me but I doubt most people have ready access to mill. Once done the sound is pretty anemic. Honestly, it was worth the effort And voiding the warranty on my Kato loco. That's why I only converted one engine. 

I wish MTH would release more details about their iOS app and wifi module. One thing I do like about DCS is that I'd only need one AIU to control all my switches whereas with TMCC I'd need 2 ASCs. At $100+ each those quickly add up. 

I may be wrong, but it was my impression that you either buy a Commander for $70, or if you want cruise, a Cruise Commander for $90, not both.

You are correct.  I upgraded a Railking RS3 by using just the ERR Cruise Commander and later on added the new Railsounds board for sound.

The Cruise Commander instructions don't really imply that it's the total TMCC package (less sound).  I ran it in my WBB E7 for over 2 years in conventional before I realized I could be running it in command

"And reading on this forum about a fella that got 3 $1000+ Legacy engines (the original and 2 replacements) that were DOAs didn't help either."

Suggest you read the forum for longer.  This sort of unfortunate consumer disaster isn't restricted to Lionel by any means.  Thankfully, it's extremely uncommon.

SeattleSUP:  No matter how much effort you put into detailing and weathering a locomotive you're still going to have that third rail running down the middle of the track which is completely unrealistic.

Unrealistic???  All the railroads by me have 3 rails?  You mean yours do not?

Well the ERR site is not entirely clear then. In any case, why even make it optional. If I'm going in that deep anyway, cruise seems to be a natural side benefit.

Operating cars are one way to understand the built-in cost or overhead of various command systems.  Suppose you want to upgrade the simplest operating car which would be to, say, remotely turn on/off the light in a caboose or passenger car.  How cheaply can you do this in TMCC/Legacy, vs. DCS, vs. DCC.  Same thought-exercise for a remotely controlled layout accessory or turn-out...

"In any case, why even make it optional"

You're complaining about ERR making more choices available?  Tough audience.

The point is that you unintentionally misstated that the cost of upgrading to TMCC and sound is at least $70 more than it is.  Blame the ERR website if you like, but the fact is that if you want to upgrade to command, Lionel and ERR have a more modular system

and that has advantages.  One is that you can upgrade to command without sound ($90) for a lot less than you can upgrade to PS2 with sound.   Not everyone's cup of tea, but a choice you don't have with PS2.  Some folks are happy to have only one sound equipped locomotive operating at a time, because of the din multiple locomotives make in a small room .  In addition, I believe ERR will do the upgrades for you for a price, which makes it a one stop shopping if that's what you want.  Different strokes for different folks!

Interesting thread, a couple of points to note.

(1.)  Not many multiple engine users would do, or know how to do, the block/district wiring necessary to operate a lot of engines at one time conventionally.  Command systems simplify dramatically, even if only just setting on the tracks.  One transformer/one engine gets expensive quickly, IMO.

(2.)  Using some of the numbers listed in this thread, a relatively nice, (good detail), steam locomotives from the early 1990's, purchased at 50% of new in the box value can be upgraded, (keep in mind that TMCC upgrade kits are a step down), for less than state of the art new.  IMO.

(3.)  Also keep in mind that Lionel has a silver box, TPC 400, (Track Power Controller) that operates most PS2 locomotives in conventional mode, applying most of the keys available on a Cab1 controller.