US hobbies vs 3rd rail

Was unaware that there were 3 rail USH engines,   Thought those were all 2-rail?

mwb posted:

Was unaware that there were 3 rail USH engines,   Thought those were all 2-rail?

Correct. He posted his question on the wrong forum. I requested the moderators move this to the 2-Rail SCALE Forum.

My apologies my experience was with 3rail 3rd rail/sunset. Thus the reason I posted in 3rs forum. 

Maybe he's asking how US Hobbies at the newest in the gamut a 40 year old model and most of the 50-60 years old now compares to 3rd Rail offerings in 2015/2016? 

I dont know if I should laugh or cry. I feel bad for Scott and congratulate him all at the same time. US hobbies imported some fine models back in the day.. robust, run like nothing else, and look pretty good. But a 21st century model based on 3D technology among other things.. ? 

I don't even know where to begin to answer that without causing a war. 

And Dr Firefly is right no 3 Rail.. some mighty big flanges on some of the earliest samples but no 3 Rail. 

Ummm I guess never mind

thanks

It's ok Langstrains. 

US Hobbies are wonderful models that need to be detailed to meet our 21st century standards and most of the time re powered. Many of them used open frame motors among other things. But US Hobbies, Max Gray all really good stuff. I own many and would never sell them. They look too good and run too good. 

US Hobbies are wonderful models that need to be detailed to meet our 21st century standards and most of the time re powered. Many of them used open frame motors among other things. But US Hobbies, Max Gray all really good stuff. I own many and would never sell them. They look too good and run too good. 

And, some are actually very nice and simply provide models otherwise unavailable and at a price that tends to be affordable.  With some tweaking (probably already done 30 years ago...), they will run forever and outlast ownership - and, being generally good solid brass the option to re-detail and customize is endless. 

mwb posted:

US Hobbies are wonderful models that need to be detailed to meet our 21st century standards and most of the time re powered. Many of them used open frame motors among other things. But US Hobbies, Max Gray all really good stuff. I own many and would never sell them. They look too good and run too good. 

And, some are actually very nice and simply provide models otherwise unavailable and at a price that tends to be affordable.  With some tweaking (probably already done 30 years ago...), they will run forever and outlast ownership - and, being generally good solid brass the option to re-detail and customize is endless. 

Righteeho my man!

Wow.  I always thought 3rd Rail was simply one of Sunset's trade names, a bit like Golden Gate Depot.  I am almost 100% sure I have seen 3rd Rail models with 2-rail wheels from the factory.

Even if not, 3rd Rail/Sunset does indeed produce 2-rail models, and they can be compared to USH.

I believe the Sunset products are superb, and they have caused the price of good USH to sag considerably.  As an example, the Max Gray AC-4 Cab Forward made it all the way to four grand on the used market, and then 3rd Rail/Sunset's version hit the street.  Both are superb models.  Sunset's has far more detail.  Both now bring a grand on the used market.

This is a tough crowd.  I am sure I am in for a beating - so: Opinion!

Sunset Models changed the name the firm uses to "Sunset 3rd Rail" as Scott took over the business from his Father.     They have always made 2 rail models.    Everything that I am aware made in the last decade or more under the 3rd Rail name has been made in both 2 and 3 rail.

As for comparison, I have had both USH and Sunset models.     All the USH stuff I have has consistently run well and tracked well when I got it.    I did have a Sunset PRR 2-10-0 that did not run well at all.    All the other Sunset locos I have run well.   

The older Sunset tended to be more fragile than the USH models.    The brass was softer and tended to bend if handled roughly.   

As for detail, I find the USH models are sufficient for operating models.    They can stand layout use.    The USH models have much better detail than the older Max Grey.    Where MG used turnings, USH tended use lost wax castings.    I don't find the detail level much less than my sunset steamers.   But I have not had a new Sunset loco since the PRR 2-10-2, so I can't speak for the very newest.     I think Sunset does provide a very good model with sufficient detail.   

If I were buying a USH loco, I would look at the wheels for excessive wear.    Some have been run a lot may be worn out.    Others may still be new in the box.   I bought a new one that had never been unpacked, 2 years ago from Allegheny Scale Models.  

As some have said the USH models have come down in price as modern replacements have been produced.   I have a pretty good feel for the price of pennsy models based on what I see at shows, and what passes on the Bay.     For other models, you have to do your own research.  

Well put Jim.

Having owned US Hobbies, and Sunset/3rRail,  the US hobbies are mechanically better models, and the steam locomotives rods are much better than the Sunset/3rdRail which have a lot of "slop" built into them. Don't get me wrong, they do run OK but I have had to "tinker" with every Sunset/3rdRail locomotive I have ever had to get them to operate to my standards.  

When comparing USH to Max Grey, I would not consider a Max Grey model. I have no opinion of the brass "fineness", but one large advantage of a USH to me is that the drive train and especially the gearbox is about the same for any USH. And can motors to re motor them are pretty easy to obtain. USH sold in large quantities, relatively speaking, so you can generally obtain mechanical parts if you need them. They are also easy to disassemble, since they were sold partially disassembled. And they run with no trouble literally for decades......

Because I run my models and make adjustments where needed, I will take a USH steam engine model over a Sunset 3rd Rail model every time.  Don't get me wrong, the Sunset models are a tremendous value but not built to last anywhere near as long as the USH.

Jay

Jay,

The 2-10-2 I bought from Norm with the Pittman you installed is one of my favorite locomotives.  rock solid performer every time it's ran.

I enjoy the USH stuff I own.  Some of the models have only been produced by USH. Add on details are readily available and easy to install if I desire more details.

Glad to hear she works well for you.  You know, I keep stumbling over that pilot I was going to send you.  Maybe now would be a good time to do so.

Jay

This is a very helpful topic.   I'm wondering what the general consensus from this learned group is on overall quality and especially drive excellence on the following:

Westside with custom drive by Jerry White engines.

Berlyn Locomotive Works engines.

Thanks.

That is a specialized request.  I bet you are the only expert on those.  I did not know Berlyn made O Scale - they surely were not popular.  I have only one Westside - it is very well detailed and flimsoid.  I would choose USH in a heartbeat over Westside.  And I have replaced USH gears with NWSL - in fact, I am doing so now with my Lionel FEF project.

Theo made a few On3 pieces, the 1941 Prospector sets, and the little M64's. Division Point was a partner on those projects. You may recall the "Joint Line" cabeese they also were Theo and Jack. 

My all time favorite model Theo has done is the Silver Vista 

Theo has done a lot in India with some success in HOn3, On3. He is known for his Fn3 stuff also. Those K37's are BIG

Oh-- and Theo did those little Rail trucks in O

And don't forget Doug Cockerham. I had several Rio Grande Max Gray L-131's (Rio Grande) that Doug re-powered and painted. They ran very well and drew very little current (ca. 0.50 amp), although there was some noticeable gear whine at low speed from the gear tower used to drop the motion down to the horizontal drive shaft. He retrofitted the engines with NWSL gear boxes.

At one time, I had a Westside Rio Grande 3-cylinder engine that had been rebuilt by Jerry White; it was quite heavy and ran very quietly with the multiple O-rings he used to transfer motion from the motor to the horizontal driveshaft. I think that was one of the quietest and smoothest-running models I ever had. Jerry White's home-built gear box with stabilizing extensions on each side through the journal boxes worked very well and prevented any undulation of the gearbox on the driving axle.

I also had an O-scale Berlyn Rio Grande 4-8-4; it ran fine, but it was really too delicate to operate regularly. Same thing with a PSC L-131.  I had a Sunset/3rd Rail DM&IR 2-8-8-4 (Rio Grande borrowed some one winter during WWII), but the valve-gear detail was too delicate to be dependable. Overall, on display, the model was beautiful. 

With a few exceptions (like, putting lubricator linkage on some models but not on others -- e.g. not on the ATSF 4-8-4 and 2-10-4, where they would have provided a big visual improvement), I think USH generally got it right in terms of the proper compromise between detail and reliability. (For some reason, the big USH SP and N&W articulateds, did include the linkage.)

But the top management of my D&RGW system decided a few years ago to dieselize, so the steam fleet went on the block, except for an L-131 (Sunset/3rd Rail's recent Anniversary series) nostalgically lettered "Denver and Rio Grande Western. " 

I thought Westside/Precision picked up the US Hobbies line [ KTM Japan builder ] with the passing of Levon Kemalyan,as I recall they came in the red boxes and featured greater detailing. The high point for KTM was the UP 4-8-4 fully sprung and equalized chassis, coasting worm gear, I believe only 25 were made,after that their master builder Mr Sofue built a number of engines for the collector clientele including repowering older KTM products.just saying!

Erik.  Who are Theo and Jack  and a little background on them would be very helpful to me.  Thanks.

the early westside(red box)  locos were built much like the us hobbies with the diecast gearbox.  when they started using Korean builders(red and white boxes) the gearboxes were light duty, the brass was thinner but had more detail that you usually found in the bottom of the box. i was dealer back then and received 100's of locos from psc ,westside, custom brass, overland and oriental. several of the importers voiced that they were not interested in the quality of the drives as they stated very few owners actually ran their locomotives. this opened a great opportunity for people like jerry white, stu kleinschmidt, soufue, cockerham and others.

 at the youngstown model railroad association layout a pair of 3rd rail nyc hudsons pulling an 8 car empire state express spun their drivers going up hill a single us hobbies hudson pulled the same train with no spinning drivers . all 3 were completely stock with no modifications and this was on steel rail. 3rd rail makes beautiful locomotives but heavy trains and grades put them to the test.

Theo Berlyn is BLW Berlyn Locomotive Works 

Jack Vansworth The Division Point 

http://divisionpoint.com 

Interesting to note both are from Boulder, CO

Interesting subject. Could someone please post a list of US Hobbies, Max Gray and Westside/KTM O scale brass locomotives from each of these brass importers. My reason for asking is I'm searching for a brass Southern Pacific MT-4 locomotive but confused as to which SP MT-4 has correct details and motor for the money. I've already seen a Max Gray MT-4 version for sale but held off purchasing until I know more. I'm also aware of the recently imported Sunset 3rdRail SP MT-4 but would prefer one of the older models due do both price and long term durability.

Thanks

The only thing wrong with the Max MT-4 is the gearbox and motor.  These things have dropped below a grand, and as far as I am concerned, are excellent models.

There is a problem - the USH MT-3 has led some modelers to assume that the MT-3 has domes and the MT-4 has a skyline casing.  Those modelers need the Church book.  Also, the USH MT-3 has an inaccurate tender.

i doubt that anybody is willing to type a list here - but for MG/USH, Bill Davis sells a very nice set of booklets.

My first brass import was a MG MT-4 from George Zane in 1960.  I still have it.  Really beautiful, and really noisy.

Doug Cockerham painted my USH Mountain with the Sofue drive. 

Earlier this year, I was lucky enough a buddy sold me his USH 2-10-2: Jerry White drive and a bunch of other cool stuff. 

I haven't tried the NWSL drives yet. Be a fun project if I find another USH UP Mountain.

Nice models for the money and rugged enough to operate. I really enjoy them and will buy more if the opportunity knocks. 

@bob2 posted:

My first brass import was a MG MT-4 from George Zane in 1960.  I still have it.  Really beautiful, and really noisy.

Could we see it? 🙂

Mark in Oregon

Sure.

I find myself going to Gary Shrader’s US Hobbies SF 2-10-4s upgrade essays time and time again. It’s a wonderful depiction of how to bring these older imports to 21st century standards. Well worth studying for beginners and advanced modelers alike.

Link below:

https://oscalekings.org/WP/gar...001-drivers-tenders/

Thanks bob2; it's awesome!

Mark in Oregon

@SANTIAGOP23 posted:

I find myself going to Gary Shrader’s US Hobbies SF 2-10-4s upgrade essays time and time again. It’s a wonderful depiction of how to bring these older imports to 21st century standards. Well worth studying for beginners and advanced modelers alike.

Link below:

https://oscalekings.org/WP/gar...001-drivers-tenders/

Absolutely

I am obviously biased toward Sunset / 3rd Rail but have never had a USH locomotive to compare in terms of detail fidelity or performance.  Currently I have 4 Sunset steam locomotives that I am very pleased with and the detail to price value is very good.  However, if a USH one came up for a competitive price and I was in the market for additional steam I would certainly consider it. 

My biggest challenge is more about trying to find models for the specific prototype steam locomotives I am missing for my next layout than the manufacturer.  I'd love to see more accurate anthracite road locomotives with accurate fireboxes.  Buehler, Buehler, Buehler .....

Are you saying the 3rd Rail Anthracite locomotives have incorrect fireboxes?  If I ever stumble on a 2-rail Williams class A, it will indeed get a wider firebox.

Never know; I may just build one in 17/64, using Lobaugh Pacific frames.

Look for an L&N Berkshire - often come in around $400, which may be half their intrinsic worth.  You can then drink in the quality for cheap.

@bob2 posted:

Look for an L&N Berkshire - often come in around $400, which may be half their intrinsic worth.  You can then drink in the quality for cheap.

Funny. I remember an ad in the '70s magazines from a shop in Chicago (?). It showed (2) L&N Berks, sitting next to a lovely pair of feminine legs. The ad said something to the effect of "Some Things are Better in Pairs".

Who says model railroading can't be sexy? 🙂

Mark in Oregon

PS: it's interesting reading this thread in juxtaposition to the current Lionel discussion about the faulty K4s. Give me "function over form" every time. Plus, those USH models look awesome.  As bob2 would say:"opinion".

@SANTIAGOP23 posted:

I find myself going to Gary Shrader’s US Hobbies SF 2-10-4s upgrade essays time and time again. It’s a wonderful depiction of how to bring these older imports to 21st century standards. Well worth studying for beginners and advanced modelers alike.

Link below:

https://oscalekings.org/WP/gar...001-drivers-tenders/

Thanks for posting that link: Gary certainly does beautiful work. 🙂

Mark in Oregon

@Jay C posted:

Because I run my models and make adjustments where needed, I will take a USH steam engine model over a Sunset 3rd Rail model every time.  Don't get me wrong, the Sunset models are a tremendous value but not built to last anywhere near as long as the USH.

Jay

Truer words have never been said. In the last year, I just started collecting US hobbies brass steam locomotives, and I am truly amazed at the robustness of the running gear.   It makes sunset pieces look fragile in comparison.

By the way, changing out the open frame motor for a Pittman  can motor is incredibly easy.   Most of the time all one needs is a couple 6–32 screws. I have yet to do any machining to place the motor. Probably have converted ten  locomotives... By the way this opinion holds for US hobbies locomotives, not Max gray. I have only worked on a couple max gray pieces and the experience is not as easy.

Also  i’ve heard some positive things about the US hobbies open frame motors. This runs contrary to my experience since I’ve had the luxury of trying out mint US hobby pieces; almost invariably there is a fair amount of squeak in the open frame motor despite lubrication.  Drop in a Pittman and the loco runs like a Swiss watch.

@swrr posted:

Truer words have never been said. In the last year, I just started collecting US hobbies brass steam locomotives, and I am truly amazed at the robustness of the running gear.   

...pictures...? 😁

Mark in Oregon