Using old ZW with TMCC

Even though you're not running Legacy, probably the best choice for the conventional running using the remote is the Lionel Legacy PowerMaster.  It'll be cheaper than the TPC, and less trouble to wire up and get working.  It will work fine with the CAB1/BASE1.

Just to be sure, that page says the Legacy PowerMaster only controls up to 180 watts.  but my ZW has 275.  will that be an issue?

Your pw ZW has 275 input and 180-190 watts output, oft times even less when heated from continous running.

No, do you really want to put more than 10 amps on the track?  You should be using a modern circuit breaker between the transformer and the track in any case for modern locomotives.  Also, the ZW is really only good for around 220 watts in the real world, the 275 in an input specification.

Or even cheaper & easier using what you already have, add a 12867 PM-1. The Command Base is not needed.

I didn't know about that, lol.  Hence, why I wanted to ask on here before doing anything.  I'll look into the Legacy PowerMaster then.     Thanks!

makes sense, but I already have a command base, so might as well use it, lol.  

You still can use the Command base and the PM Rob recommended.  It matches your set up.  The CAB-1 talks to the Power Master directly.  This makes it very easy to run your conventional engines from the CAB-1.  Lionel sells an adapter cord that has a fuse in line that connects your ZW to the PM.  The PM has the fast acting circuit breaker to protect more modern trains, and the fuse will protect your ZW better then the one it has.

You can get two PM and feed one from each channel.  That gives you independent control of two loops.

You still can connect the Command Base and if later you add a TMCC engine, the command base talks to it.

If you go Legacy PM your CAB-1 talks to the Command Base and the Command Base talks to the Legacy PM.  Just an extra step not need for what you are doing.

Either way will work, but you can probably get a TMCC PM cheap on the used market and simplify the communications.   G

Just to add, while the old ZW's are fun and historic they are long in the tooth. First I would never use it unless you it gone through by a knowledgeable repair tech. I just sent mine in and for under $100 its as good, if not better than new. In addition the ZW circuit breaker, which was fine for 1950 engines, is not suitable for modern electronic engines. So if you are running only postwar older engines it still might be OK (after getting serviced) but you will want some sort of external circuit breaker to use it with new equipment.

BTW  here is a primer on the older TMCC system  that many find helpful

He already has the command base.

G,

  I understand what you are saying.  I DO have a pair of TMCC engines, hence why I got the remote/command base combo a few years ago.  My concern about the PM is can it handle the 180+ watts from the ZW?  I admit I am new to this, and just want to make double-sure before I buy anything!

  The only other transformer I have is a CW-80 that came with a starter set.  It works, but I was having power drops along the track (using the conventional engines, and yes, there is a power bus running along the track).  Switching to the ZW has appeared to cure that, but wanted to check before I re-connected my TMCC equipment.

Most of my stuff is older post-war (only boy in the family, so inherited dad and uncle's trains).  The ZW was their's as well, been in the family since brand new, and has seen relatively light use over the years.  Dad is letting me use it for my layout, which is the first time it will have seen use outside of under the Christmas tree in the past 30 years!

The three newer TMCC engines I have are not being used with the ZW at the moment.  was using a CW-80, but removed the command base when I connected the ZW last weekend.  I knew there was a unit that had to go between the ZW and track for conventional-TMCC running, but didn't know what to get, hence asking on here.

Yes.  The inline fuse protects it.  Also, the ZW total output is split between the 4 outputs.  you could actually get 4 power master and connect one to each output, but each loop would have much less power than you want.  Also the load on the track determines the current draw.

It will be fine and the PM breaker is the best out their.  The inline fuse protects from over current.

The advantage of the PM is the ability of the CAB-1 to talk to it directly.  If you had a portable layout to run a non tmcc engine, the cab-1 and PM is all you would need.  G

If  I was in your position, and knowing what I know, I would take gun runner john's advice and get the Lionel Legacy PowerMaster.

I have three IC Controls TPC 3000, and walking back over to the circuit breaker on my 180W bricks gets old fast. If one of them was to "go" it will be replaced by the above.

And yes you need SOMETHING between the ZW with its ancient clicking circuit breaker and the track. Skip all the BS go right to the best choice.

He is not using bricks?  So he is not resetting circuit breaker?  I am offended by you choice of the work BS.  There are pro and con to either selection.  So explaining the differences is not BS.  G

I have a 12867 Power Master and 6-12893 cables if you are interested in purchasing them. My e-mail address is in my profile.

Here is a thread from earlier this year that discusses using the 275W ZW with the 12867 Power Master. 

https://ogrforum.com/t...88#35076991179574188

Regards,

Calvin

The Legacy PowerMaster has a lot of features that are better than the older PowerMaster products.  It has much better circuit protection, has the macro emulation to automate operation of the MTH PS/1 and PS/2 locomotives in conventional mode.

Before buying old and unsupported boxes, I recommend you check out the Legacy PowerMaster User's Guide and see all the additional features over the older models.  These are selling for around $75 street price and IMO are a much better way to go than the older units.

The ZW could be 2500 watts and the PM can handle it just fine. It only "takes"(draws) what it needs.

thanks for all the advice!  I will look into the normal and legacy PowerMasters.  I don't have any MTH stuff (cept for a DDA40X which won't turn on this layout), so don't need anything special to run PS/1 or 2.  Just running older and TMCC-equipped Lionels.  

I'm glad I posted on here before doing anything.  been trying to search for info on internet, but not too much luck!  again, thanks for the help!

nx9100,

   Rob is correct about how he recommends the set up, however I am with Guns on this one, especially if you plan on investing in the 990 Legacy some day to run legacy engines.  Might as well invest in it right up front.

PCRR/Dave

Sign me up for that 2500 Watt ZW

I have no plans on buying Legacy.  They cost way too much for me.  I prefer finding used post-war or 90's loco's, fixing them up, and in some cases, upgrading to basic TMCC using the aftermarket kits.  simple TMCC is all I need.

I run a 1950s era ZW with all Tmcc locos and have had no problems. The circuit breaker in the ZW works almost instantaneously. Maybe I'm just lucky.

Ron

I'll say you're lucky!  That certainly hasn't been my experience with most PW transformers, including a number of ZW models!

Guns,

   I would agree with you and say he was more than lucky, actually sounds like he has one of the old 250 ZW's with a light breaker, when we got one of these in the old days everyone got rid of them, heck now with the new stuff it's a blessing, however I would still use the Scoot type 7-10 Amp resettable breakers in front of her.

PCRR/Dave

Hi

Here is my two cent about ZW and KW. Both are very fine trans transformers however you fry the electronics in the new engines. Use these and it will save you a lot of time money, trust me. Junior drop a screw drive right across the fasttrack and blow the circuit breaker. Boy am I glad I had these installed this year. http://www.jcstudiosinc.com/TV...ar-Layout-Protection

Kris

Kris,

   Man do I agree, when using the old KW & ZW transformers you must have some kind

of fuse or breaker system set up to safe guard everything, or sooner or later you are going to pay some serious repair bills.

PCRR/Dave

quote:

 I have my dad's old 1950's ZW transformer, and wanted to use it for power.  

Your transformer is somewhere around sixty years old. Unless the power cord was already replaced, the odds are that the cord is in need of replacement.

If the transformer was stored reasonable well, the transformer is probably fine, but it should be checked. There are carbon rollers that eventually wear out, and a few safety checks, such as an A.C. leakage test, and circuit breaker test that should be performed.

Others have already posted about supplementing your Z.W. transformer with external protection such as T.V.S. and circuit breakers. I wouldn't use a large transformer of any kind without those external circuit breakers. If I ran trains with electronics, you can be certain I'd use T.V.S. protection too.

C W:  The ZW has seen generally little use since the late 80's.  Growing up (born 1986) dad only used it for the train around the tree each christmas.  other then that, he stored it with the old trains in the basement (boxed, wrapped, etc).  I know he and my uncles used it when they were kids, but I don;t think it was used at all until I was born.  Best guess, last 40 years it didn't see any use at all (sans x-mas), but was carefully stored (dad always takes care of his things, hence he still has a 1986 John Deere that runs like new!)

I could take it in to get a service check-up.  prob wouldn't hurt.  but overall, it is in great shape.

also, going to use a pair of PowerMasters to go between it and the tracks (one for mainline, one for yard).  they have breakers in them, right?

At a minimum, check the cord carefully for cracks, especially near the plug and near the transformer.

As I already posted, it is rare for the original cords to be in good condition.

Another point: do not leave the transformer plugged in and unattended.

I cannot help you with the PowerMasters, I am not familiar with them. There are certainly people here who can answer your question.

I will check the cord when I get home today.  and we have never left it plugged in when not in use (off button would be nice, lol).  On that topic, what about having a power-strip with an on-off switch, and leaving it plugged to that, with the strip switched off when not in use?  

I use a power strip.

If you look at the Legacy Powermaster manual it does say to put a fuse inline when using an older transformer. I am sure the same applies to the previous generation of PowerMasters, though at this point if you do not have one in hand I wouldn't put much effort into finding one, get the Legacy PowerMaster and the CAB-1L at least.

To reemphasize what CW says, even though your dad stored it properly and it saw limited use, the cord and circuit breakers fail due to age, not just use. The cord rots, the circuit breaker gets stiff

PowerMasters have good electronic style circuit breakers, and the line-in cord has an inline fuse.

cool, thanks rob!  

I'll check tonight, but i'm pretty sure that the power cord on the ZW is still intact and good shape.  will get a pic if it is.

I understand that you are trying to set up your TMCC operation in the least expensive, yet effective manner.  After all, if you have the power source (the old ZW), why not make the most of it.  The answer is, you can.  My layout of 496 square feet is powered by three PW ZWs with five of six throttles in operation, each connected to a first generation Powermaster and thence to the Command Base.  I run TMCC and conventional engines on each of the five loops, simultaneously, often two lines in conventional mode and the other three in TMCC.  Just slip the TMCC/Conv slide switch on the Powermaster to your preference for operation.  Occasionally, I even run locos in transitional command (combine conventional and TMCC) on the same line.  That can be a blast, but is a story for another day.  Read all about it in the original expanded TMCC Operators Guide, printed in the early days of TMCC.The layout has been in place since 1996. In fact, before TMCC was on the market, Powermasters came out a bit earlier and I was able to operate all of my engines, some seventy years old, from the just introduced CAB 1.  That alone sold me on the whole TMCC concept.  But, in response to your questions, you have been given some very good advice.  First, assuming your equipment is in tip-top shape, i.e. cords and throttle controls, it is essential that you install quick blow or low amperage in-line fuses on each of your lines, whether you have just one or multiple ones, using Powermasters, whether the older versions or the new 1L (blue box version).  The breakers in the PW ZWs are too slow and you will "fry" your electronics in your TMCC locos.  As has been pointed out, fuses are cheap, circuit boards are not.  If all is well, the CAB1, CB/Powermaster arrangement will operate just fine.  Your transformer will be able to handle the set up well, if wiring is adequate and connections are solid.  As suggested, assuming you wish to run TMCC and conventional locos, and you must purchase Powermaster (s), the extra cost of the 1L version is well worth it.  There are still plenty of the older units on shop shelves and at meets. But, the operative word is older and remember they are no longer made. Just chalk up the price differential between the old and the new as good insurance.  If all you really need is 1L Powermaster and some in-line fuses, you are looking at an outlay well south of $100.00.

Here is the power cable on the ZW.  Dad has never mentioned having it serviced before, and knowing him, if it was, it happened at least 15-20 years ago.  The cord is in perfect shape, couldn't find any cracking or signs of rot when checking it last night.  As you can see, it is plugged into a power strip with power switch, which is turned off when not in use.  ZW still performs great, but I will look into getting it checked out just to be safe!  

Final question:  I think this was already said, but want to be sure.  Do the original PowerMasters already have an in-line fuse built in, or do I need to get one?

Big thing to check on an old ZW is the rollers, if they wear down to the arms, they score the core and the transformer is junk!  The other thing is to verify the operation of the circuit breaker.  I'd use in-line fuses or circuit breakers from the transformer out anyway, but the internal CB should be working.

The PowerHouse to PowerMaster cable has an in-line fuse.

A better picture of the plug would be helpful.
From what I can make out in your photograph, the cord has been replaced. Lionel used a number of different molded plugs over the years. Yours does not look like one I have seen before.

As long as the cord and plug are in good condition with no cracks, is it really important that it's original?