Very disappointing and frankly disturbing news....please read.

Not sure what other "advertising expenses they have " if any, but the CTT  OGR choir grows daily.

I think a better starting point would have been (and still could be)

"Alan we need your help in getting the attention of your new base....how can we do that via the forum?"

PS.... TCA.... you have the attention of the entire forum now.

Lots of knee jerk reactions on this subject. None of which will make a bit of difference to the future of the Train Collectors Association or O Gauge Railroading Magazine. We should be supporting all aspects of the O gauge hobby, the publications, organizations and hobby stores and vendors. Circling the wagons around or against any of them is detrimental to the hobby.

The TCA decision to cut, or reallocate, their advertising from the O gauge publications on the surface doesn’t seem like a productive decision. But we haven’t heard their side of this decision yet and we probably never will. Until they make another move they see fit to promote their organization. They, as all of us do, prioritize their expenses and make decisions not everyone likes.

The publications will continue as will the TCA. It’s all fluid. I don’t recall any other multi page threads about advertisers discontinuing their adds in a magazine. I think it’s poor form for business decisions like this being aired out in public but here it is. I would hope the TCA has an alternative plan in place before this decision was made. Time will tell.

@Traindiesel posted:

Lots of knee jerk reactions on this subject. None of which will make a bit of difference to the future of the Train Collectors Association or O Gauge Railroading Magazine. We should be supporting all aspects of the O gauge hobby, the publications, organizations and hobby stores and vendors. Circling the wagons around or against any of them is detrimental to the hobby.

The TCA decision to cut, or reallocate, their advertising from the O gauge publications on the surface doesn’t seem like a productive decision. But we haven’t heard their side of this decision yet and we probably never will. Until they make another move they see fit to promote their organization. They, as all of us do, prioritize their expenses and make decisions not everyone likes.

The publications will continue as will the TCA. It’s all fluid. I don’t recall any other multi page threads about advertisers discontinuing their adds in a magazine. I think it’s poor form for business decisions like this being aired out in public but here it is. I would hope the TCA has an alternative plan in place before this decision was made. Time will tell.

Right there with you Brian. It would not serve we ambassadors to the hobby to clip off our fingers or lop off an arm. Granted people are entitled to do with themselves what they deam proper and to their own values, but I don't consider cancelling my TCA membership because I don't agree with this decision. We should continue to support the hobby any way we can within reason. If we can afford to spend money, let's spend. If we have suggestions for the TCA, we should suggest. Will that go on deaf ears? Don't know. Being silent doesn't help. Hopefully I can come up with something to send them about all this.

As far as I can tell, the main reason that we're hearing about it here is because the decision was made in a non-transparent manner.  If we hear anything at all from TCA, it will probably be buried in the minutes of a meeting - in other words, the stuff that hardly anyone reads.

Been reading the various replies to Alans post and like many I am unable to understand where TCA is trying to go with this. Do they plan to seek out younger members on FB, TikTok, Twitter or some other ethereal meeting place? These people don't go out and engage in the real world for the most part, granted the forum is just as ethereal but the others pale in the scope and depth of the information that can be had here. We've all had our reasons for joining the TCA or not joining it, some are valid points others are, just to be diplomatic about it, arrogant. I've been around long enough to know when a company claims budgetary reasons as a reason for an unpopular plan it usually means they are trying to staunch some sort of cash bleed or that a younger bunch with "better ideas" has been given a green light but given the ages of most TCAers I don't think that's it. The TCAs' roster has been shrinking over the years and it looks like the game plan now is to swing at every pitch looking for any answers to reverse it. Do I have any answers for it? NO,  but I'm not going to dig my heels in on one side or the other and double down on supporting a bad idea or lack of foresight simply because I like the TCA or I like OGR and have no intention of being introspective and seeing if as Pogo so succinctly put it, "I have seen the enemy and he is us."

That being said, Alan and many others make a convincing argument for TCAs continued support of CTT and OGR where as the opposition makes points like:

"I am not a member of the TCA and have no plans to become one"

"Your loss."

A bit dismissive ya think?

"I believe that it will hurt OGR and CTT more than it will hurt the TCA"

So long as my people make it out alive

"I read all the replies. That has not changed anything that I said."

Kinda what's wrong in the world today, I'm right you're wrong ...CASE CLOSED!

If that is truly how the upper echelon of the TCA see the forum and its supporters then good riddance to them. We see on the forum about breakfast meet ups before York, dinner at Quaker Lube (or whatever it's called), the OGR meet at the grandstand, all having been born here on the forum, what has the TCA/ED given us besides a meet at York with declining attendance and things they used to have or do having gone the way of the Dodo (the auction comes to mind, the loss of Lionel et al).

Man, what a way to make a reappearance on the forum! Run silent for a few months and when I come up for air I surface in the middle of a storm. Anyways I will stay a member of the TCA simply to be able to go to York and really no other reason since train shows seem to be dying a slow death anyways.

I just figure the big dog on the porch will stick around a few more years til I get around to finishing my train room/bar. While that in and of itself will remove me from The Brotherhood Of The Crappy Basement Layout the 36" door layout will keep me in the 48 Club (the 12'x12' L layout not withstanding).

Jerry

@Traindiesel posted:

Lots of knee jerk reactions on this subject. None of which will make a bit of difference to the future of the Train Collectors Association or O Gauge Railroading Magazine. We should be supporting all aspects of the O gauge hobby, the publications, organizations and hobby stores and vendors. Circling the wagons around or against any of them is detrimental to the hobby.

The TCA decision to cut, or reallocate, their advertising from the O gauge publications on the surface doesn’t seem like a productive decision. But we haven’t heard their side of this decision yet and we probably never will. Until they make another move they see fit to promote their organization. They, as all of us do, prioritize their expenses and make decisions not everyone likes.

The publications will continue as will the TCA. It’s all fluid. I don’t recall any other multi page threads about advertisers discontinuing their adds in a magazine. I think it’s poor form for business decisions like this being aired out in public but here it is. I would hope the TCA has an alternative plan in place before this decision was made. Time will tell.

Brian..I agree with you in that this is a unique thread as far as the topic and the "business" aspect.  However, the actions are also unique because of the players involved.  Let me give you an example:  in the past when a major hobby publication "left the scene", there was plenty of speculation on what happened including the opinions of those that had been directly affected by that publication.  Imagine the threads that would be started on other train related forums and websites if OGR decided to close the forum for "whatever" reason.  Because of our position within the hobby community, I surmise that lots of talk would take place!  Some of that talk would be uninformed and some would be perhaps not only spot on but based on trends and facts that took place over time.  Major decisions that are made by main players in our hobby are going to be discussed and some of those decisions will be "business" decisions.  Regardless of whether or not you or anybody else thinks it is "poor form" to have this discussion isn't the point rather it is what will the long term effects of TCA's change of demographic focus and how they are going to successfully do so over the long term that is the issue here.  OGR is ready, willing, and able to help with TCA's plans to grow and if they are looking for younger hobbyists, we have them here.  If they are looking for online growth, we can help them here.  AND, if they are looking for expanding into more "HO" (and other scales) they could use our HONGZ forum and eblasts we offer all of our sponsors to get directly to that market.

I do agree with you that we all should be supporting one another particularly those organizations, clubs, forums, sites, that focus on promoting the hobby rather than an agenda.

Well said Alan. About says it all.

@NIKHIL posted:

Hi @ToledoEd,

I'm not saying that the average age is 75. I was just pointing out someone else's observation and correcting it, saying that that may no longer be the case. as far as "median" age is concerned, I agree that that is a better gauge of membership status, but I don't know the median age.

Anyone else know?

Nikhil, sorry for my poorly worded reply. I meant the 75 remark to be rhetorical to give context to what I think is probably a more important fact: median age, as you also agree, is important to know.  It would help in assessing what needs to be done and promoted to keep the membership, and grow it.

Alan, I agree.  I'm 75...I feel 12 when I put time in on the hobby.  Often I'll see things and say, "if only I was that age with what I know now..."  I'm sure we've all experienced that at least once. When I attend TCA meets, read the literature, engage here, I'm pumped and feel young again. This hobby can do that...let you act and enjoy like a kid, yet be informed by the wisdom the years give you. You'll never hear a pessimistic remark from this hobbyist.   Oh, and I've watched many, many videos posted by that smiling bunch of great...young and younger Dudes! posted in Nikhil's comment earlier in this thread.  (Lets' not overlook that YouTube and other social media outlets are not only 'information sharing' platforms, but also business creating opportunities)   Because of them and so many like them, I'm confident in the future of the hobby. I suspect the vast majority on the Forum are also.  Well, off the soapbox and back to being a kid!

@OGR CEO-PUBLISHER posted:

Brian..I agree with you in that this is a unique thread as far as the topic and the "business" aspect.  However, the actions are also unique because of the players involved.  Let me give you an example:  in the past when a major hobby publication "left the scene", there was plenty of speculation on what happened including the opinions of those that had been directly affected by that publication.  Imagine the threads that would be started on other train related forums and websites if OGR decided to close the forum for "whatever" reason.  Because of our position within the hobby community, I surmise that lots of talk would take place!  Some of that talk would be uninformed and some would be perhaps not only spot on but based on trends and facts that took place over time.  Major decisions that are made by main players in our hobby are going to be discussed and some of those decisions will be "business" decisions….

…..OGR is ready, willing, and able to help with TCA's plans to grow and if they are looking for younger hobbyists, we have them here.  If they are looking for online growth, we can help them here.  AND, if they are looking for expanding into more "HO" (and other scales) they could use our HONGZ forum and eblasts we offer all of our sponsors to get directly to that market…….

Alan, that’s the thing. Neither OGR, CTT or TCA has “left the scene”.  All three are very much on the scene. I’m positive you offered the TCA every option and opportunity to continue advertising. But announcing it in public like this gives people the opportunity to drag an advertiser through the mud. One that may at some point reverse course and place ads again in the publications down the road. We don’t want to burn bridges for any advertisers or give future advertisers pause, wondering if they purchased ads and had to stop at some point that they’d get called out. And I’m sure current advertisers are watching this.

I only hope that in this world’s greatest hobby world that everyone could coexist and prosper.

I love this forum. I also subscribe to the magazine.

That said, the advertising in the magazine is a big nothing burger for me. I guess it might help a newcomer identify where to buy the trains the don't have yet, but IME that info mostly comes word of mouth.

The "big ad" companies now are Google (Alphabet) and their digital competitors. Their revenue DWARFS print media, probably by several orders of magnitude. The reason? They can show efficacy of the dollars spent. In print, radio, and TV media it's very hard, if not impossible to get that level of detail that tells a business whether their ads work.

There's no reason though this forum can't continue to operate from ad dollars. But my recommendation would be to use the digital ad companies (tastefully). If the pageviews are as high as has been stated, and is a draw to newcomers as much as stated, it will be no challenge to get the number of click-throughs to sustain a modest staff and hosting costs.

The draw is the content on the forum. That is the invaluable part of it.

My other recommendation would be to widen the appeal of this site by offering specific forums for all major scales, and rename it to "All Gauge Railroading" where it not only appeals to model railroaders, but 1:1 rail fans as well.

@OGR CEO-PUBLISHER posted:

I do agree with you that we all should be supporting one another particularly those organizations, clubs, forums, sites, that focus on promoting the hobby rather than an agenda.

Good to see your last point Alan but I am not sure what you mean by OGR supporting TCA. I see no OGR ads in the TCA publications and further you no longer have tables at York. How is your support expressed other than with these words?

I am under the impression the TCA is a non profit organization while OGR is a for profit company. My experience is its the for profits that donate to the non profits, not the other way around.    

The company I worked for made donations to the American Red Cross. They made no donations to better our profitability.

Pete

Some numbers for consideration:

In 2008 there were ~27,000 TCA Members (source TCA)

Today my review of the latest online directory shows 15,594 TCA members. (Source TCA)

In 2008, 14,567 folks attended York (source Clem's Primer)

In October 2022, 7,450 folks attended York (which was 50 less than in April 2022).  (Source Clem's Primer)

By my count, there have been 317 new members added this year (filter the member directory by year). (Source TCA)

I'd be interested to know how many are members of the forum or subscribers to OGR or CTT.

The ED TCA webage has a banner stating that York is the TCA's best recruiting tool.  I think the question to ask is what got someone to go to York in the first place? And if it was another TCA member, what got them to go?  I know from personal experience, the answer to that question is this forum and articles in OGR.

-Greg

@Norton posted:

Good to see your last point Alan but I am not sure what you mean by OGR supporting TCA. I see no OGR ads in the TCA publications and further you no longer have tables at York. How is your support expressed other than with these words?

I am under the impression the TCA is a non profit organization while OGR is a for profit company. My experience is its the for profits that donate to the non profits, not the other way around.    

The company I worked for made donations to the American Red Cross. They made no donations to better our profitability.

Pete

There's an entire bleepin' forum dedicated to the York meet for cryin' out loud and it's still up and running.  Who do you think pays for that?

-Greg

I admit that I haven't read all the posts on this topic and really don't want to.  That being said, I do have an opinion.  I used to belong to the national TCA when I was going to York and while I didn't get a lot out of it, I have nothing negative to say about it either.  My interests have always been in hi-rail or 3-rail scale and TCA seemed to me to be collector oriented organization.  There are so many examples of marketing decisions made by companies that I don't either understand or agree with that they are too numerous to mention.  It doesn't make sense to me if TCA is after a younger audience that they wouldn't use digital magazines and forums of which OGR's is by far the largest.  But then I never was able to comprehend why they used to make some of the decisions that they did at the York show either. 

I agree with the comments that we need to all work at peacefully coexisting in this great hobby of ours, even if we aren't all on the same page about every issue.  That isn't always easy, but I believe it is the right thing to do

Art

@Greg Houser posted:

There's an entire bleepin' forum dedicated to the York meet for cryin' out loud and it's still up and running.  Who do you think pays for that?

-Greg

I’m guessing the advertisers and forum members. The York Meet Forum was precipitated by all the posts about York in the 3Rail Forum. Not as a favor or benefit for the Meet or the TCA. It was created because of all the discussions about it. People were complaining all the York posts were clogging up the 3Rail Forum. Imagine that, too much discussion about a train meet on a train forum.

It was my late cousin who introduced me to the TCA and CTT long before there was an internet. I found out about the OGR Forum from the old, now defunct Atlas O Forum.  Luckily for everyone here, I decided to join!

@Norton posted:

Good to see your last point Alan but I am not sure what you mean by OGR supporting TCA. I see no OGR ads in the TCA publications and further you no longer have tables at York. How is your support expressed other than with these words?

I am under the impression the TCA is a non profit organization while OGR is a for profit company. My experience is its the for profits that donate to the non profits, not the other way around.    

The company I worked for made donations to the American Red Cross. They made no donations to better our profitability.

Pete

Pete...we have never been approached (at least during my term here at OGR) to advertise in the TCA publication.  I would be open to doing so.  Also, perhaps you don't realize that OGR pays our site/forum vendor Crowdstack for each page view/post on the forum.  We have hosted and paid for MANY years the special TCA / York sub-forums for a several reasons not the least of which folks wanted those special forums and we decided it would be a good idea since it would highlight and promote a great organization.

Anyway, I am glad you agree with my last point and am looking forward to you becoming a subscriber and/or supporting member!

@Traindiesel posted:

I’m guessing the advertisers and forum members. The York Meet Forum was precipitated by all the posts about York in the 3Rail Forum. Not as a favor or benefit for the Meet or the TCA. It was created because of all the discussions about it. People were complaining all the York posts were clogging up the 3Rail Forum. Imagine that, too much discussion about a train meet on a train forum.

It was my late cousin who introduced me to the TCA and CTT long before there was an internet. I found out about the OGR Forum from the old, now defunct Atlas O Forum.  Luckily for everyone here, I decided to join!

You are partly correct when it comes to the formation of the TCA/York sub-forums.  Again, OGR pays for every page view and post on the forum.  It "ain't" cheap believe me.  By us creating the TCA categories it accomplished what many members wanted and at the same time help consolidate promoting the TCA which we were happy to do!  As I have said many times, if we had to pay for the forum based on only subscriptions to the magazine, there would be no forum.  The forum is basically a separate entity that must stand on its own financially these days and so a combination of advertisers, sponsors, supporting members (we need a lot more of them...only about 350 or so of you) and subscribers keep this place afloat and believe me none of the staff including myself are getting rich...LOL!

While not a subscriber I do pick up issues of OGR at my local outlets. Like trains I already have way too much paper clogging my attic and shelves to the point I am actually putting up a new building to find a place to store them.

Pete

@rplst8 posted:

I love this forum. I also subscribe to the magazine.

That said, the advertising in the magazine is a big nothing burger for me. I guess it might help a newcomer identify where to buy the trains the don't have yet, but IME that info mostly comes word of mouth.

The "big ad" companies now are Google (Alphabet) and their digital competitors. Their revenue DWARFS print media, probably by several orders of magnitude. The reason? They can show efficacy of the dollars spent. In print, radio, and TV media it's very hard, if not impossible to get that level of detail that tells a business whether their ads work.

There's no reason though this forum can't continue to operate from ad dollars. But my recommendation would be to use the digital ad companies (tastefully). If the pageviews are as high as has been stated, and is a draw to newcomers as much as stated, it will be no challenge to get the number of click-throughs to sustain a modest staff and hosting costs.

The draw is the content on the forum. That is the invaluable part of it.

My other recommendation would be to widen the appeal of this site by offering specific forums for all major scales, and rename it to "All Gauge Railroading" where it not only appeals to model railroaders, but 1:1 rail fans as well.

@Norton posted:

While not a subscriber I do pick up issues of OGR at my local outlets.

So do I. I strategically partially cover the MRs on the rack with an OGR so people can see what they're missing.

I'm not a member of TCA, so my input won't matter much to them. But, I'm sending them a note stating the dollar-foolishness of their action if they wish to thrive.

Whenever I do an O scale internet search ... so many of the hits bring you to OGR. Photo searches, too.

If not for this announcement, who here would have noticed the lack of TCA ads either here or in the magazine?

@Norton posted:

While not a subscriber I do pick up issues of OGR at my local outlets. Like trains I already have way too much paper clogging my attic and shelves to the point I am actually putting up a new building to find a place to store them.

Pete

The digital subscription is the answer to the clog problem in your attic.  AND we offer a print/digital subscription that you can't buy at "local outlets" (not sure what/who those are) that allows you to have a digital subscription and FREE access to our digital video library for only $12.00 over the cost of print only!

I think it is time to close this thread.  The entire purpose of the thread was to inform and discuss (stay on topic) the decision of a main player in our hobby to change its focus from its base and how that MAY effect our segment of the hobby.  While many of the posts in this thread were less than positive (both TCA and OGR took hits), there were some that actually supported both entities and stated that we all need to try to work together to promote our hobby particularly this segment.  OGR has spent literally millions of dollars over the 50 plus years promoting the hobby and of course the business.  Every one of our advertisers and sponsors receive the lowest possible price to advertise with us ... we are not making a killing here!  As far as our subscribers, we would have to price a yearly print subscription at over $50.00 to BREAK EVEN!  We provide our hobby shops that carry our magazine a substantial discount on the magazine that is less than the subscription price so that they can afford to give it away as a "perk" to customers or make a couple of bucks if they sell it.  Their choice.  AND, they can if they want carry our web store product so that they can sell it for less than we do and still almost double the price they paid us.  And those of you that have read our magazine, you should know that we regularly talk about, mention, you name it....most if not all of the major organizations like the TCA.

I can tell you that I have been on both ends of all of this for decades and I understand budgets BUT generally when I was representing a business or organization, I made sure to first approach those folks with whom I was spending advertising dollars and let them know we needed to discuss alternatives BEFORE making a budget cut to $0.00.  I have been told via email today that the decision by TCA may be temporary and perhaps after a while they will get back with me.  I will welcome that day if and when it happens.  In the meantime, all of you need to understand that if you want what businesses and organizations like OGR and TCA have to offer, then you will need to direct some of your hobby expenditures to ensure they will be around for you in the future.  Don't get angry with them rather find ways to become involved and supportive of their efforts.  I know that when subscribers and advertisers contact me and are willing to have a civil conversation, I am open to listening and if they have a suggestion that I can implement, I try to do so.  Sometimes I can't but we do listen and that is why we bring you the content in the magazine and offer the forum with all of its sub-forums.  BUT, we are not perfect and do stumble sometimes.  The important thing here is to get up and keep going!!

Lets all wish TCA the very best.  It takes a lot of courage to make decisions that may or may not work and are sometimes unpopular ... I know, I have made plenty of them!  Topic is now closed and thanks to all of you that contributed.  We welcome those of you that want to become subscribers and/or supporting members!