Video Of My Battery-Power Remote Controlled (BPRC) MTH 2-8-0 (and now my Williams brass N&W J)

Very nice!

Inquiry email sent.

Robert, thanks!  I replied to your email.

The train was running at about 1/2 throttle, 3/4 throttle is about as fast as I want to run, I might try a 8.4 volt battery pack instead of the 9.6 I have in the tender now.

Doesn't show up on iPad, but I think that is great!  Tell us more.

Neat!  2.4?  Can you make use of any of the servo channels?  What are you using for a transmitter? 

Bob,

Here's the email I sent Robert:

I installed a system from Tony Walsham in Australia:

http://www.rcs-rc.com/

With a battery pack and charger from All-Battery here in the US.

I knew this could be done, just had to try it myself!

It does go in reverse with the backup light lit and the headlight out when it does.

I currently have no onboard sound or smoke, I may put sound on but from that video there's plenty of "noise" as is.

There's a charging jack in the coal bunker on top, along with the on/off switch.  I've only charged the battery once, inside the tender.

All my engines have Kadees installed.

The down side to Tony's system is that you can run only 1 engine separately at a time, unless you want to run them all as a single unit/consist.  I only run 1 at a time anyway so that's fine with me, if I want to run another engine I simply have to turn off 1 and turn on the other.

The entire setup cost me $279, that included:

Transmitter Tx7k
Receiver/ESC Alpha 3v2
On/Off/Charging Jack BIK-U3
9.6 vdc NiMH battery Tenergy brand (2000Mah)
Charger Tenergy brand
LT-SW4v2 Sound module (need a sound card to connect to it)

I had to buy an plug adapter at the local RC shop to mate up the charger/battery/charging jack.

So far I initially ran the engine for about 45 minutes with the battery straight out of the box, no charge.

It took about 2-1/2 hours to charge and I've run it 3-4 different times fro about 15 minutes each and there's still juice in the battery.  I can see a 2 hour operating session as normal, not bad.

I'll learn more as time goes by!  The system is easy to hookup and use, but I think cheaper is still out there using of the shelf RC products.  I also think a 8.4 vdc battery would be plenty.  I want to try LiPos but I'll need to buy another charger.

I used a MTH wiring harness and remove all but 4 wires (2 motor, 2 headlight), the Rx/ESC and on/off/charging jack are very small and have terminal connections so no soldering is done on the boards themselves.  All documentation needed came with each module plus it's on Tony's website.  The hardest part was getting use to some of the "lingo" those Australians use , but it worked the first try.  I did have to swap motor leads to get the motor and lights synced up.

The Nikon camera must have a pretty good mic on it, it doesn't sound that good standing in the room but now I'm thinking of not installing sound at all.

The MTH Railking 2-8-0 ran fine on Ed Rappe's code 148 2-rail track, the large flanges didn't seem to hit anything.  So if a person was inclined they could go Atlas 2-rail and with this system not have to modify the wheels on their engines (I did remove the center rollers, not needed).

There's a couple of "Polyswitch" fuses in the system to protect from overloads, I think they trip when an overload/high current is detected and reset themselves.  But unless the engine is stopped on the tracks by something like a brick wall (and the wheels keep spinning) I don't see too many problems, there sure ain't no voltage on on the track to cause any harm

I timed the engine today.  My layout is approx 1/3 mile and at top speed it took 65 seconds to go 3 laps, figure that's approx 55mph top end with a 9.6 volt battery.

I think I'll get a lower voltage battery and see what happens.  The lower voltage one should be even smaller than the 1-1/8 square, 4" long pack I have now.

I calculated the speed in the video at approx 25mph, it took approx 48 seconds to make a full lap, I think I had the speed control knob set around mid-range.

I was going to try adjusting the internal settings of the receiver to see if I could improve the slow/start speed of the engine, I haven't tried changing any of the settings yet, but I did install a 11.1v Lipo battery this afternoon in place of the 9.6v NiMH pack.

The slow/start speed drastically improved!!!  I can get it to crawl almost as good as using the MTH DCS system or Lionel TMCC system in my present 3-rail engines.  Way better than anything I ever ran under conventional (transformer) control.

The top end is a bit higher, but I'll never run it as fast as it will go.

The only thing lacking is sound, and I'm not convinced I want it anymore.

The only thing I'm having trouble with is wanting to pound the table or jiggle the engine if it doesn't take off when I think it should.  It's a matter of getting the feel of the speed control knob...cause there ain't no electrons moving on the track

All I need to do is think "Scotty, We need more power"

Small update:

I did adjust the startup speed of the 2-8-0 and it's doing a bit better.

Now for the BIG news...I installed the system (my 2nd one) in my 3-rail Williams/Samhongsa brass 4-8-4 N&W Class J #611, plenty of room in the tender left if I want sound.

This engine is geared at something like 43:1 and creeps along with a turn of the speed knob. It's just as slow as it was when it had a MTH PS2 (DCS) upgrade kit in it.

After I ran the engine around the layout a couple of times I hooked 4 Weaver aluminum passenger cars behind it and it pulled them just fine.

The engine alone weighs 14.2 pounds, each passenger car weighs over 2 lbs so that's over 22 pounds being pulled around the track. I honestly didn't think the 3amp Rx/ESC would handle it but I see no problems.

I also have the Williams/Samhongsa USRA 2-8-2 and 4-6-2 brass engines, it'll be interesting to see how they perform as their gear ratio isn't as good as the 4-8-4.

I was going to try this in a diesel, but I've been leaning towards running only my steamers for the past several months. I may end up selling off my 1/2 dozen diesels in the future.

Thanks to Tony Walsham of RCS for all your help! I'm sure I'll have more questions for him and the others as I get accustomed to running "Dead Rail".

I'll try to post a video later this coming week.

PS - neither the 2-8-0 nor the J have their center rollers installed now.

Hi       I think you will find that the RCS system is based on Deltang's products out of the UK, you may won't to cheque out there web site as well. There RX65 receiver seems well suited to 1/4 scale, battery or track power(DC). I intend to us there system in the future, but I prefer a system of removable battery packs, that can be transferred from loco to loco. This would mean, only having two or three packs to maintain.         (cTr...Choose the Right)

This engine is geared at something like 43:1 and creeps along with a turn of the speed knob.  It's just as slow as it was when it had a MTH PS2 (DCS) upgrade kit in it.

I'm not surprised.  PS2 is and always was a "band-aid" for what amounts to toy train gear ratios.  The fact that it adds sound and individual control gives MTH an excuse to charge an extra $200, but these features have always been available with direct RC systems such as AirWire, Locolinc, RCS, etc. with NO track signal wiring or ground plane issues.

     My strategy would have been to make a resin casting of the tender shell so it wouldn't block the signal, spray it black, and decal to look like the original.  How are you getting the signal into a brass tender?

     When you do the installs in your Williams Mikado and Pacific, please let us know what the gear ratios were.  I'm curious... do these still have the original Mabuchi motors, or were the motors replaced at some point?

The engine alone weighs 14.2 pounds

Wow!  Was lead weight added?  I don't remember Williams brass being this heavy out of the box, hence their practice of fitting four rubber tires.

Great work, I think you're really onto something great here!!  -Ted

Ted,

I haven't seen any interference from the brass tender, didn't even think about it to tell the truth when I installed the system.  The only thing RCS said to look for was if the charging jack was installed to make sure it was isolated from any metal.  Using a Lipo battery I decided not to install the jack.  I'll have to remove the tender shell when the battery needs charging, until I can come up with another way to get to the plug.  Right now it takes removing 6 small screws to take the shell off the tender.  I could use a NiMh battery and mount the charging jack in a location I can get to without having to take apart the tender.  The Lipo battery has a 4-pin plug for charging and from what I was told at the RC LHS nobody makes a wall-mounted connector so you can plug in the charger, say to the underside of the floor.  The guy I talked to actually said I was the first one who even asked whether or not there was something like that available!

I'd have to take another look but I think all 3 engines have the same motor in them.  Here's a photo of the Js motor:

It's about 1-3/16" dia. and 2-1/4" long.  Not sure what brand.  In another topic I think I wrote that there's 32 ounces of lead in the front of the J.  Even the RCS owner, Tony Walsham, was surprised his system was pulling all that weight around.  He does have a 6amp system available.

In that other topic I had going about the J, I wrote that I had some noise/vibration coming from the drive.  I have since put it on a test stand and narrowed it down (I think) to the motor, right now I'm waiting on a Pittman motor to arrive to see if it makes a difference.

I've made 2 videos of the J with the RCS system installed, but couldn't load either one because of their length.  I need to make one no longer than 1 minute to get it on the forum.  Guess I'll have to make 2-3 to show everything I wanted to show!

The battery will always be the big thing in the system, until they come up with smaller, more powerful ones.  The Rx/ESC and on/off/charging jack units are tiny.

Stephen, RCS does indeed use the Deltang system, but from what I see RCS added on some terminal blocks so wires can be screwed into them vice having to solder them on.  On my 2-8-0 I re-programmed the startup voltage so that when I turned the speed control knob it goes from 25% to 100% power.  Initially the system is set from 0% to 100%, but I felt I was turning the knob too much before the headlight came on followed by the engine starting to move.

Here's a video showing the J under battery power:

Not sure what some of the noise was in this video, unless it was the rain.  The microphone on this Nikon Coolpix L22 must be very sensitive to pickup rain drops on a shingled roof cause there was no other sound-producing thing in either room upstairs.

But you can hear the sound the motor is making (like a baseball card in the spokes of a bike), hopefully the new motor I'll get this week will fix most of that and use less current.

Here's another 1 minute video (without the rain, the sound was coming from the rain hitting the metal roofing on the dormer, not the shingles):

Bob I don't see a label, but the motor in your photo looks like the stock Mabuchi RS-555SH.  This was Mabuchi's largest DC brush motor.  It's much better than their smaller motors, and it was standard in most of the Williams and Weaver brass offerings from 1986-92.

This motor has a lot of torque and importantly, high-end RPM too.  I think it was rated for up to 32 volts (but don't burn yours out proving this!)  I'm not sure what Pittman motor you're getting, but A 12V Pittman 9000 series maxes out around 6800 RPM and it's really not designed for much above 12V.  At 43:1 you might find the loco too slow.  The Pittman 8000-series motors have less torque, but they're a better match for the speed curve, maxing out around 10,000 RPM.  Pittman makes the same motors with a 24-volt winding.  These will draw less current, but will run slower still, unless you plan on feeding it a full 24 volts.  Some G-scale guys have that kind of juice available.

The Mabuchi is a 5-pole and the Pittmans are 7-pole but IMO your noise issue isn't the motor.  It's everything taken as a whole: flywheel, U-joints, gearbox, motor, chassis.  At medium speed you're getting sympathetic resonance.  It's very hard to make something run vibration-free at 12,000 RPM or even 6000 RPM.  The flywheel and drivetrain have to be carefully balanced.  And the J's brass body only amplifies the noise.  There's a reason why they don't make tubas out of die-cast metal    So the low (numerically high) gear ratio turns out to be a double-edged sword.  That's probably why MTH stuck with slow-turning Pittman motors and toy train gear ratios in a lot of their locos--quiet running means fewer customer returns.  But their stuff is die-cast, so they should have gone about 25:1 IMO.

Instead of swapping the motor I would go to your nearest car stereo store and buy a small piece of DynaXorb (rubber waffle sound matting used in music studios and car stereo installations.)  The one I know of has an adhesive backing.  Cut out a little piece and adhere it to the inside of the locomotive shell above the flywheel.  See if that quiets things down.

Also... make sure the idler gears in that tower are greased, and that there isn't a split gear or chipped tooth!  Personally I'm thrilled by the smooth performance I'm seeing in those videos; I would just live with the ticking or mask it with a sound system.

With your combo, how is start-up with the slack stretched on a long train??  That's the high-current scenario that I would be concerned about.  With those four rubber tires my guess is that you'll stall the motor before it slips (but again I would be apprehensive to try!)  Keep us posted on your progress!!  -Ted

Thanks Ted, that's a lot to digest this early in the morning!

Good to know about that motor,  the top speed is more than I need to maybe the Pittman will do the job.  If not I'll look for another.  I have a motor (it's sitting on the dock at the lumber yard) that's almost the same size as the one in the engine, but it has a lower rpm.

I ran the engine on the test stand without the boiler shell, U-joints, and flywheel and it still has a lot of vibration in it, could be the shaft is bent but I can't see it if it is.

I did place some rubber inside the boiler when I first got it, quieted it down a bit but the resonance is still noticeable.  It's not any kind of sound-deadening stuff though so I need to go to the audio store.

bob2 has given me some advice on it too but I can't seem to make it quieter.

I think the 2-8-2 and the 4-6-2 have the same motors, but not the same gearbox ratio, I'll have to open them up and check again.  I also detect the vibration in the 4-6-2 but not as loud.

Is it possible to change the gear ratio on MTH engines, easily?  I've never seen any posts where folks have done it.

The speed control knob on the Tx has 300 degrees of movement.  I can get the engine/train to start very slowly but I have to be very careful when I turn the knob not to stall it or make it jump.

There's not as much resistance on turning the knob as there is on the DCS thumbwheel so I think it's just getting use to using it.

I'm going to print out your response so I can try those things you mentioned, thanks.

I temporarily installed the Pittman 8514 motor from my Weaver RS3 and it worked great, no where near the noise from what I can tell.  I still need to wait on the motor I ordered cause it's coming with a drive shaft and universal assy.  The universal I used temporarily I had to drill out for the motor shaft and lets just say I didn't quite get the hole centered   I have a couple more cups but I need to find a better method of holding tham so I can run the drill thru them.

Ted, Your information is not completely correct.  The Williams Brass used the RS-550 motor which is a 3 pole motor, and therefore can have some cogging effect.  I have upgraded these engines to PS-2 and they do run fine.

I recently found some RS-555 motors that are the 5 pole motors.  I have replaced my 550 motor in my Brass J.  I have not finished the upgrade yet, so I can't report on performance difference.

Bob, I have an extra 555 if you want to try it.  It is an easy swap in.   G

Thanks George, let me see what the Pittman motor will do when it comes in.  I think I already know, I put the Pittman motor out of my Weaver RS3 in last night and it's a tad slower than the original motor but the noise is gone.  Slower isn't bad.

I thought I had fixed the problem with the original, I found the universal drive shaft was too long and thought it was putting pressure on the rest of the drive train.  But when I cut it back a bit the noise is still there, although not as bad it's still enough that I want to swap it out.

I also tried the other motor (came out of a printer) I have that looks like the original just shorter, but it's got a very low top speed and wide open just creeps around the layout.

Hope to get the new motor by the weekend!

As far as Mabuchi types the third # is # of Poles.  0=3poles and 5=5poles.  The last 4# are critical to knowing voltage, rpm, torque specs, but those # are not always on the label.  They have to do with wire size and # of turns, which determine some of the specs.   G

Bob, do some research on the LiPo, (Lithium Polymer) batteries before you go that route.  Probably the best Power to Weight ration, one of the reasons, it seems to be popular in model air plane/helicopter application.  They are also used extensively in lap top computers and camera's.  The charging and, discharging/(over use), of these types of batteries can be trouble-some.   Cracked battery case, and correct storage of batteries, not being used, is also discussed in the Model Air Plane hobby.  There is a lot of potential here, but these batteries (LiPo)  are not the D-cell batteries we used in our Boy Scout flash light.  

You may want to do a search on the Forum, we had done a discussion on Battery powered trains before. 

Best wishes

Mike CT.

Mike, I recall the past discussions.

Heck, they're putting Lipo batteries in household appliances now, you just have to not treat them like a caveman would.  We get more worked up about a Lipo battery than we do about someone holding a loaded gun.

Thanks G I accept your correction, and thanks for the tip about the number of poles.

There is a similar tip regarding Pittman motors:

1st number = Diameter.  6=small 8=medium 9=large 14=very large

2nd number = Possibly the type of terminals or wire leads. 2=wire leads, 4=side terminals

3rd number = Performance rating.  1=standard performance 3=high performance [this has to do with the type of magnets used]

4th number = Length.  2=short 3=medium 4=long.  Now this scale goes up to 7

Most of their motors are commonly available in 12-volt and 24-volt windings.  Other windings are available for custom applications.  For example, when Lionel introduced the Odyssey system, they worked with Pittman and determined a 15.1-volt winding was advantageous.

Examples: 8514 is standard in a diesel.  An 8234 would be the same size but with high-performance magnets.  A 9434 (common in MTH and 3rd Rail steam) is a pretty darn big motor.  And a 9237 would draw a lot of current, but it could probably power a riding toy!

Pittman also has other options like ball bearings, balanced winding etc., which are buried in the 3-digit suffix.  But at least before Ametek bought out Pittman this wasn't a code.  You would have to reference the original purchase order to get the exact specs.

Anyone please feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken.  -Ted

Hi Bob - Enjoyed your videos and seeing your layout.

Gary

Thanks Gary, I really need to get back to work on my layout.

Ted, thanks again for the "primer" on these motors, something I need to print and keep.

I got my new motor in from P&D today (ordered it Tuesday, pretty good P&D!), got it installed and running, the noise is gone!

I believe the shaft is bent in that old motor.  The motors in my Williams/Samhongsa USRA 2-8-2 and 4-6-2 are smaller in length but same diameter and I think the gear ratios are different (maybe 25:1, I'll have to check).  I don't notice the same noise in either of them.

The old motor does have a 1/2" long flat spot on the shaft for a set screw, maybe that flat is throwing the balance off enough to make the noise.

The new motor (Pittman 8514), is a bit slower at the top end but quiet and fits (had to get a new universal with it).  Still pulls the 4 Weaver cars around the layout and the top speed is still a bit faster than I normally run so all is good.

I'll try to post another video this weekend.

Up next...the 2-8-2 and 4-6-2!!!  I also have a Railking Imperial 0-6-0 I want to convert but need to look at the manual to see how it comes apart, I couldn't see how without taking some of the valve linkage off.

A couple more videos with the new motor.  It's almost too quiet   the camera mic really picks up the clickety-clack of the rail joints:

Next time I remove the tender shell I'll take some photos of the electronics.