Vision Line Challenger #3985

It's easy to get caught up in the storm of negativity that the internet provides and lose perspective on what is important to you.  Congratulations on focusing on your own joy and not succumbing to the anguished garment rending of those who have developed a finely tuned ability to see the worst in everything that Lionel does .  Enjoy your loco, and may it be problem free (like the vast majority of purchases most of us make).

Has anyone spoken to Lionel about whether or not the sound can be changed to an articulated one? 

I got mine last week like you I don’t plan to be discouraged about the sounds. Here’s a short clip at home. So far I think Lionel did great on quality control on these engines. I was not impressed with QC on the UP 4 pack 21” cars but that is now water under the bridge and this is a great addition to any collection 

Good looking train zachariah. I really want to know if your new challenger has the kinematic coupling between engine and tender.  Does it? Thank you. 

It sounds like an articulated steam engine with the drivers in symmetrical postions (like it is)...

I am waiting for mine...  hopefully here thisweekend!

Oh brother, here we go again.  T minus 30 seconds until thread deletion. 

FJI posted:

Has anyone spoken to Lionel about whether or not the sound can be changed to an articulated one? 

You need to call them???? They stated if you are not happy they will do their best to make it right remember this is Vision Line

zhubl posted:

I got mine last week like you I don’t plan to be discouraged about the sounds. Here’s a short clip at home. So far I think Lionel did great on quality control on these engines. I was not impressed with QC on the UP 4 pack 21” cars but that is now water under the bridge and this is a great addition to any collection 

I appreciate you sharing the video. Awesome look into what my setup will look like. This loco and passenger set is the reason I was drawn back into the hobby after nearly 20 years. So for all the good/bad/could haves, this set is a W for me and those in my circle because they are not associated to the hobby because of this. (Not all bad Lionel).

T4TT posted:

Good looking train zachariah. I really want to know if your new challenger has the kinematic coupling between engine and tender.  Does it? Thank you. 

It does not, I was looking forward to see how that would look on a bigger locomotive like the challenger (I also kinda forgot that it was going to have it). I suppose they were just unable to get it to work right. 

OK, Got my Challenger today. Tried to register it on the Lionel web site and it says it's not under warranty. I guess the didn't update the web site. I hope nobody has to change a traction tire. They give you a hex nut tool to change the tire but it looks like you need a allen wrench to change the tire. Otherwise it look nice, it's a heavy engine. and they give you a knuckle coupler to put on the front. Now I can double head it with the Big Boy. I could only go back and forth on my layout. I'll have to wait till I get to the club to give it a real workout. I hope the traction tires hold out.

Jim D

Jim D posted:

OK, Got my Challenger today. Tried to register it on the Lionel web site and it says it's not under warranty. I guess the didn't update the web site. I hope nobody has to change a traction tire. They give you a hex nut tool to change the tire but it looks like you need a allen wrench to change the tire. Otherwise it look nice, it's a heavy engine. and they give you a knuckle coupler to put on the front. Now I can double head it with the Big Boy. I could only go back and forth on my layout. I'll have to wait till I get to the club to give it a real workout. I hope the traction tires hold out.

Jim D

I noticed that too on the traction tires… I’m not too worried I’ve rarely replaced traction tires. The only locomotives I’ve replaced tires on is the 6-11131 Legacy 844 and 6-11208 LM Big Boy. My vision big boy is still going strong, as well as my 1st run Challenger I picked up last year. 

Zachariah thank you for letting me know that there is no kinematic draw bar. Enjoy your new Challenger!

T4TT posted:

Oh brother, here we go again.  T minus 30 seconds until thread deletion. 

I laughed so hard at this...  be positive, its still up...

Jim D posted:

They give you a hex nut tool to change the tire but it looks like you need a allen wrench to change the tire. Otherwise it look nice, it's a heavy engine. and they give you a knuckle coupler to put on the front. Now I can double head it with the Big Boy. I could only go back and forth on my layout. I'll have to wait till I get to the club to give it a real workout. I hope the traction tires hold out.

You're not actually telling us you don't own a set of Allen wrenches, are you?

I had to go out to my shed were I have my big roll around tool box. I found an oddball allen key that fit. While I was doing that the bell fell off and I lost it and a piece of piping came off the bottom and I don't know were it goes. I'll have to wait till I get to the club and look at someone else's engine to see where it goes. I put it back in the box before something else happens to it.

Jim D.

Good plan.

Nassau Hobby’s Exclusive WM Challenger is in stock and shipping now!

Have there been any sightings of the Rio Grande green boiler Challenger? I would like to see one 

I'd say it turned out excellent. Right now, I'm considering the 3985.

Hard to tell from that video but, is the model of 3985 that of a coal burner, as she was originally, or converted to an oil burner in about 1989?

Hot Water posted:

Hard to tell from that video but, is the model of 3985 that of a coal burner, as she was originally, or converted to an oil burner in about 1989?

Just to confirm, this model is an oil burner.

Landsteiner posted:

It's easy to get caught up in the storm of negativity that the internet provides and lose perspective on what is important to you.  Congratulations on focusing on your own joy and not succumbing to the anguished garment rending of those who have developed a finely tuned ability to see the worst in everything that Lionel does .  Enjoy your loco, and may it be problem free (like the vast majority of purchases most of us make).

Is simply expecting Lionel to make this version of Challengers as nice as their last version of Challengers truly being negative?

If the bar I expect Lionel to meet on their Vision Line products is simply to meet a quality level and feature level consistent with prior Lionel VL products, am I being unreasonable or negative?  Why not expect Lionel in 2019 to be equivalent (or dare I say better) than Lionel in 2010?

When BTO does not allow for you to see the product you are eventually purchasing, how or why can I assume that these products will be any different than prior runs.....unless specifically told so?

Hi Berk...  thats not an issue at all...  i think its a fair request for sure...

This run of VL challengers is supposed to have alot of improvements...  i think Ryan mentioned an improved Dynamo retention also...  for owners of first VL challengers know, that Dynamo is REALLY HARD to keep in place!  It likes to sneak off and easy to bump off the engine.

I fished an extra dynamo out of my rear drivers when mine was new.  So apparently it was lost and replaced in China.  I ran it several laps before seeing it bouncing around above the drivers...

My challengers have arrived at LHS.  Eager to pick them up today...

"Is simply expecting Lionel to make this version of Challengers as nice as their last version of Challengers truly being negative?"

Not at all. But it's one thing to write that "X is important to me" and "without X I'm not interested," and it's another thing entirely to write that Lionel's removal of a feature is evidence that Lionel staff are incompetent, Howard Hitchcock should be sent to the countryside for re-education , and Lionel doesn't care about it's customers. 

It's all in the way in which one deals with disappointment as a rational adult as opposed to issuing an indictment of everyone at Lionel and in the hobby except one's narcissistic and needy self. 

There are participants of the forum who no longer have posting privileges because they were intolerant of the opinions of others, abusive, irrational or consistently over the top. 

You don't qualify.   

That type of vituperative, irrational negativity was what I was referring to, including  other forums that I read where antagonistic lunacy is the norm .

Super O Bob posted:

Hi Berk...  thats not an issue at all...  i think its a fair request for sure...

This run of VL challengers is supposed to have alot of improvements...  i think Ryan mentioned an improved Dynamo retention also...  for owners of first VL challengers know, that Dynamo is REALLY HARD to keep in place!  It likes to sneak off and easy to bump off the engine.

I fished an extra dynamo out of my rear drivers when mine was new.  So apparently it was lost and replaced in China.  I ran it several laps before seeing it bouncing around above the drivers...

My challengers have arrived at LHS.  Eager to pick them up today...

 

I can confirm the dynamo retention. The new one will most definitely stay in place

Berkshire President posted:

Landsteiner posted:

It's easy to get caught up in the storm of negativity that the internet provides and lose perspective on what is important to you.  Congratulations on focusing on your own joy and not succumbing to the anguished garment rending of those who have developed a finely tuned ability to see the worst in everything that Lionel does .  Enjoy your loco, and may it be problem free (like the vast majority of purchases most of us make).

Is simply expecting Lionel to make this version of Challengers as nice as their last version of Challengers truly being negative?

If the bar I expect Lionel to meet on their Vision Line products is simply to meet a quality level and feature level consistent with prior Lionel VL products, am I being unreasonable or negative?  Why not expect Lionel in 2019 to be equivalent (or dare I say better) than Lionel in 2010?

When BTO does not allow for you to see the product you are eventually purchasing, how or why can I assume that these products will be any different than prior runs.....unless specifically told so?

I believe we should expect their Vision Line locomotives live up to what they state on their own website about the standard it's supposed to meet.

As far as losing posting privileges, in my personal opinion the tolerance of the new regime as far I am concerned are defeating the point of the forum. This is supposed to be a place to discuss and make the hobby better including the criticism of manufacturers products to make them better and hold them accountable. But I am seeing where accountability is no longer a standard in todays society.

Peter Araujo posted:

Hot Water posted:

Hard to tell from that video but, is the model of 3985 that of a coal burner, as she was originally, or converted to an oil burner in about 1989?

Just to confirm, this model is an oil burner.

OK, but then I wonder why it doesn't have twin Dynamotors?

You wonder why the manufacturers can't get it right? Perhaps there aren't enough surviving prototypes, reference books, internet resources, or living individuals...oh wait. Never mind.

Hot Water posted:

Peter Araujo posted:

Hot Water posted:

Hard to tell from that video but, is the model of 3985 that of a coal burner, as she was originally, or converted to an oil burner in about 1989?

Just to confirm, this model is an oil burner.

OK, but then I wonder why it doesn't have twin Dynamotors?

That may be. But then also why does the VL Big Boy have NO dynamo?

zhubl posted:

Hot Water posted:

Peter Araujo posted:

Hot Water posted:

Hard to tell from that video but, is the model of 3985 that of a coal burner, as she was originally, or converted to an oil burner in about 1989?

Just to confirm, this model is an oil burner.

OK, but then I wonder why it doesn't have twin Dynamotors?

That may be. But then also why does the VL Big Boy have NO dynamo?

Maybe Lionel modeled the second order of 4000 class locomotive, i.e. 4020 thru 4024 (the last 5), which were delivered with the Dynamo mounted down low, on the Engineer's side, just forward of the ash pan. 

FJI posted:

Has anyone spoken to Lionel about whether or not the sound can be changed to an articulated one? 

I was curious about that myself. My guess is whatever sounds are loaded into the chips and or such are in there even if they don't use them. I don't think a Legacy patch would result in any changes of that(even if the sounds were hiding in there). My guess is that whatever is going to happen would most likely be a call tag, R.A. or something to that effect.

I also saw that TW was having them tomorrow. I posted on TW page under the clown Challenger video and asked if they could ask if the articulation sounds are or aren't supposed to be there. If it gets missed as a question, we'll all still be where we are currently.

Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

FJI posted:

Has anyone spoken to Lionel about whether or not the sound can be changed to an articulated one? 

I was curious about that myself. My guess is whatever sounds are loaded into the chips and or such are in there even if they don't use them. I don't think a Legacy patch would result in any changes of that(even if the sounds were hiding in there). My guess is that whatever is going to happen would most likely be a call tag, R.A. or something to that effect.

I also saw that TW was having them tomorrow. I posted on TW page under the clown Challenger video and asked if they could ask if the articulation sounds are or aren't supposed to be there. If it gets missed as a question, we'll all still be where we are currently.

Dave,

I have spoken to Lionel and I received an email but I am not at liberty to share because of all the legal stuff attached in it. Nor do I believe it is my place to share it. Like Dean said in the final post on the other thread closed please contact them if you have issue regarding the sale description of the Challenger. I would contact them to answer your questions that way it is not hear say.

Hot Water posted:

zhubl posted:

Hot Water posted:

Peter Araujo posted:

Hot Water posted:

Hard to tell from that video but, is the model of 3985 that of a coal burner, as she was originally, or converted to an oil burner in about 1989?

Just to confirm, this model is an oil burner.

OK, but then I wonder why it doesn't have twin Dynamotors?

That may be. But then also why does the VL Big Boy have NO dynamo?

Maybe Lionel modeled the second order of 4000 class locomotive, i.e. 4020 thru 4024 (the last 5), which were delivered with the Dynamo mounted down low, on the Engineer's side, just forward of the ash pan. 

I figured if I said something that there would be something I didn’t know. That being said though and correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t the second order have the (I’m going to call them “air coils”) up front in the pilot rather than under the handrails like the 1st ordered was delivered?

Shawn_Chronister posted:

Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

FJI posted:

Has anyone spoken to Lionel about whether or not the sound can be changed to an articulated one? 

I was curious about that myself. My guess is whatever sounds are loaded into the chips and or such are in there even if they don't use them. I don't think a Legacy patch would result in any changes of that(even if the sounds were hiding in there). My guess is that whatever is going to happen would most likely be a call tag, R.A. or something to that effect.

I also saw that TW was having them tomorrow. I posted on TW page under the clown Challenger video and asked if they could ask if the articulation sounds are or aren't supposed to be there. If it gets missed as a question, we'll all still be where we are currently.

Dave,

I have spoken to Lionel and I received an email but I am not at liberty to share because of all the legal stuff attached in it. Nor do I believe it is my place to share it. Like Dean said in the final post on the other thread closed please contact them if you have issue regarding the sale description of the Challenger. I would contact them to answer your questions that way it is not hear say.

I sent them a message on FB, but I didn't ask them technical question, just if it had the articulation sounds or not and could they post a video if possible. My message was read but no response. I figure something will be said at some point and I can always ring them up.

zhubl posted:

Hot Water posted:

zhubl posted:

Hot Water posted:

Peter Araujo posted:

Hot Water posted:

Hard to tell from that video but, is the model of 3985 that of a coal burner, as she was originally, or converted to an oil burner in about 1989?

Just to confirm, this model is an oil burner.

OK, but then I wonder why it doesn't have twin Dynamotors?

That may be. But then also why does the VL Big Boy have NO dynamo?

Maybe Lionel modeled the second order of 4000 class locomotive, i.e. 4020 thru 4024 (the last 5), which were delivered with the Dynamo mounted down low, on the Engineer's side, just forward of the ash pan. 

I figured if I said something that there would be something I didn’t know. That being said though and correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t the second order have the (I’m going to call them “air coils”) up front in the pilot rather than under the handrails like the 1st ordered was delivered?

Yes, those "intercooler radiators" were mounted behind the front shields on the second order of 5, 4000 class locomotives. They were so successful, that after WWII, the UP Mechanical Dept. converted all locomotives of the first order of 20, to the same configuration as the last 5. Thus, by about 1948 all 25 of the 4000s looked pretty much the same, as do all those currently on display, not to mention the restored #4014.

What I can’t get a straight answer to is if I send it into Lionel, are they going to just try and refund me, or fix the sounds? That’s been my only question from the beginning and no response here or from Lionel has been willing to answer that...

Surefire posted:

What I can’t get a straight answer to is if I send it into Lionel, are they going to just try and refund me, or fix the sounds? That’s been my only question from the beginning and no response here or from Lionel has been willing to answer that...

Again, just my opinion, and I may be totally wrong but, I really don't thing the Lionel folks are about to "fix the sound issue"! They will refund your money, because you are not satisfied, but will NOT admit that they made an error.

Surefire posted:

What I can’t get a straight answer to is if I send it into Lionel, are they going to just try and refund me, or fix the sounds? That’s been my only question from the beginning and no response here or from Lionel has been willing to answer that...

I tried to send you an email using the one in your profile and it was returned if you like to hear what I have to say email me.

Hot Water posted:

zhubl posted:

Hot Water posted:

zhubl posted:

Hot Water posted:

Peter Araujo posted:

Hot Water posted:

Hard to tell from that video but, is the model of 3985 that of a coal burner, as she was originally, or converted to an oil burner in about 1989?

Just to confirm, this model is an oil burner.

OK, but then I wonder why it doesn't have twin Dynamotors?

That may be. But then also why does the VL Big Boy have NO dynamo?

Maybe Lionel modeled the second order of 4000 class locomotive, i.e. 4020 thru 4024 (the last 5), which were delivered with the Dynamo mounted down low, on the Engineer's side, just forward of the ash pan. 

I figured if I said something that there would be something I didn’t know. That being said though and correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t the second order have the (I’m going to call them “air coils”) up front in the pilot rather than under the handrails like the 1st ordered was delivered?

Yes, those "intercooler radiators" were mounted behind the front shields on the second order of 5, 4000 class locomotives. They were so successful, that after WWII, the UP Mechanical Dept. converted all locomotives of the first order of 20, to the same configuration as the last 5. Thus, by about 1948 all 25 of the 4000s looked pretty much the same, as do all those currently on display, not to mention the restored #4014.

Why I couldn’t key the term intercooler earlier I may never know but thanks for the information 😁