Vision Line Stock Cars

I try to stay with true 1/48 scale so this is disappointing. I purchased 2-CP and 2-UP 3 packs. Now I'm reluctant to open them. A lot of money for Traditional scale. I looked up the Lionel catalog they were in thinking I missed something, Lionel only listed them as "O gauge". That was misleading. I guess anything in the Lionel catalog that doesn't specify scale and only gauge I will stay away from. Not trustworthy. Thankyou for responding.👍😃

Not all stock cars were the same size in real life. Have you compared the measurements with the actual prototype?  Perhaps the prototypes for MTH and Atlas were simply different in dimensions?   

@Landsteiner posted:

Not all stock cars were the same size in real life. Have you compared the measurements with the actual prototype?  Perhaps the prototypes for MTH and Atlas were simply different in dimensions?   

This. They are two different cars from different eras, with Lionel based on an older prototype. Compare the roofs and car ends, they’re completely different. I’m guessing, too, that the CP car on the right is steel-sided, whereas the Lionel has wood slats.

The Lionel cars are scale and have much nicer detail than the MTH or Atlas Trainman models.  Lionel did a steam era prototype, probably 30s or 40s era design while the others are a later design, not sure but guessing 50s.

As pointed out by Ryan, above, while nicely detailed, Lionel’s scale stock cars are, in the setting of other scale pieces, noticeably smaller, and cause a somewhat jarring visual incongruity. They look perfect in an O31 environment. The included cows maybe closer to 1:48. 😜

Here is a short video of the OG Vision Line Stock Car.

I couldn't put up with that noise for very long!
Now, if they had a smoking stock car with Cigarette & A-No.1, I might buy one!

" Not trustworthy."

You might want to edit this to reflect the fact that the error was not Lionel's.

@MartyE posted:

Here is a short video of the OG Vision Line Stock Car.

Thanks for the comments Guys. Yes I have heard that the Atlas stock cars are just a touch bigger, the MTH are apparently true scale scale cars though. I did suspect that earlier cars were smaller and the only dimensions I could find for this era these cars are bit smaller. I like the detail it was well done. If you put the cattle in the door, as (Mark V -scale cows has mentioned) they look a little big for the car. I did think about switching bodies but the frame is also narrower. Thanks for the info Guys... not sure what I'm going to do. The worst part is I have all 3 of the different livestock stock cars 11 3pks, 2 I have opened. Lesson learned I guess.👍😣🙂

"the MTH are apparently true scale scale cars though."

All of them are true scale cars apparently.  In the real world, cars varied in size and appearance.

Hi Landsteiner, I think the cars were very well done for detail. My problem is Lionel chose not to disclose the actual scale of these cars. Gauge is not scale and yes I should have called Lionel to check the actual scale sizing but you would naturally think that being "Vision Line" along with the placement in the catalog one shouldn't have to call. If I would have known these cars are of Traditional scale I wouldn't have purchased them. Maybe some don't care about scale and that's fine, I do and Lionel's info on these cars appears to me to be a bit misleading. I still think the cars are cool... just will look out of place on my layout. Thankyou for responding.😃

"My problem is Lionel chose not to disclose the actual scale of these cars."

Sorry to be blunt.  The problem is you are in error about this issue.  Lionel's cars are scale size, not traditional in size.  The prototype for the Lionel model was smaller than the prototype of the Atlas and MTH cars. The error is yours, not Lionel's.  They did not mislead you.  You assumed that all stock cars would be the same size.  That is incorrect.

@Highballen posted:

Hi Landsteiner, I think the cars were very well done for detail. My problem is Lionel chose not to disclose the actual scale of these cars. Gauge is not scale and yes I should have called Lionel to check the actual scale sizing but you would naturally think that being "Vision Line" along with the placement in the catalog one shouldn't have to call. If I would have known these cars are of Traditional scale I wouldn't have purchased them. Maybe some don't care about scale and that's fine, I do and Lionel's info on these cars appears to me to be a bit misleading. I still think the cars are cool... just will look out of place on my layout. Thankyou for responding.😃

Good to know, bullet dodged, almost bought the UP set, I'd have been disappointed to see they are smaller than scale, regardless of era.

@MartyE posted:

Here is a short video of the OG Vision Line Stock Car.

It is immediately clear that this car is not made from the same molds as the OP's stock cars.

@Rod M. posted:

Good to know, bullet dodged, almost bought the UP set, I'd have been disappointed to see they are smaller than scale, regardless of era.

Gah! The Lionel cars ARE SCALE sized. They are NOT traditional!
The Lionel car is a SCALE mode of an ACF 40 ton stock car. It has been in production since 2002 or 2003.
The MTH and Atlas cars are models of a later steel side stock car. Neither company specifies what the prototype is for their models.

Real freight cars came in a variety of sizes. Steam era cars were smaller. Starting in the late 30s and 40s, freight cars started getting larger and continued to do so into the 80s and 90s. In the 19th century cars were normally 30’ long, then they grew to 40’, then 50’; these days, many freight cars are 60’. Over the years, width and height increased as well to maximize the amount of goods.

Lots of errors and misconceptions in the above discussion. Ryan is right - they are scale cars. The rest of what he says is correct as well. The Lionel Vision stockcars, as well as the identical scale non-Vision stockcars Lionel made previously that didn't have sounds, are ACF 40 ton cars, that are wood-sided. Prototypically, they were smaller than some other cars. But these scale ACF stockcars are larger than Lionel's traditional-sized stockcars.

Incidentally, the car shown in Marty's video is not one of Lionel's scale ACF 40 ton cars, but rather is a traditional sized car. Lionel made a few of these with sounds, and even called the Pennsy one Vision, but it's not really. It does not have the Vision sound system, no quilling capability, for example. Rather, as it says in the ad and on the box label, although they are command control equipped,  they have a RailSounds sound system. I have a UP Joseph McCoy Chisholm Trail version, which is identical to the Pennsy. Besides being smaller than the scale ones, these traditional stockcars, like all the traditional cars, also have molded in ladders and grab handles and are lacking other details that the scale ones have.

Here are some actual cars pictured for comparison. As for the size comparison, you can judge for yourself. There's a scale Lionel NP steelside reefer, a scale Lionel Burlington stockcar (the same car as the Vision line ones - I have those, too), and a traditional Lionel stockcar. The Burlington scale stockcar is about the same size as the scale steel-sided reefer. The traditional stockcar has a significantly smaller body, rides higher, is somewhat shorter, and, as one of the photos shows, is also narrower. The scale stockcar also has all the add-on detail parts that scale cars have, which the traditional one lacks.

As Ryan says, freight cars come in all different sizes. They did in in years past, and they still do today. PS-1 boxcars, for example, are relatively tall cars, much higher than the ACF stockcars. Since cattle weren't stacked, there was no need to make stockcars tall. It should be noted that the Lionel scale PS-1 boxcars, which were 40' cars, and the Lionel scale ACF 40' stockcars, are exactly the same length. A modern 50' boxcar dwarfs the 40' ACF stockcar, both in length and height, but then, prototypically, it would.

Bottom line: As Ryan said, the Lionel ACF 40' stockcars are indeed scale-sized. One further note - the traditional-sized Lionel stockcars are relatively long for a traditional car. They measure 11 1/4", whereas Lionel traditional boxcars measure 10 1/2".

Thankyou so much for your input. I inadvertently bought a car listed on Ebay that was Traditional and after lining the 2 cars up matched perfectly. The livestock looked a little big for the cars also so I came to the O Gauge Forum. In a consist they look out of place but if this is the actual scale sizing of that era... this is kind of a big relief as I have purchased so many. I will maybe run them with a couple of empty flats front and back... not prototypical... so this size difference isn't so dramatic as these cars are quite a bit narrower and shorter in height. Your right though the length is the same as my other stock cars. I will tell people it's just the way it is if asked. Thanks again... love this forum!👍😃

@Ryan Selvius posted:

The MTH and Atlas cars are models of a later steel side stock car.

Thought I would send you a pic of the Atlas stock car close-up showing the wood siding FYI. Got to admit for a Trainman product this is pretty detailed, expand if necessary. Wood just the same.👍😃

So the Atlas is a composite (both wood and steel) car then. I have plenty of Atlas cars but no stock cars so haven’t seen the up close detail.
Composite cars were common in the 40s, especially with war time shortages of steel. This was the last hurrah for wood as a construction material for railroad equipment. Many of these cars lasted in service into the 60s and 70s.

@breezinup posted:

Incidentally, the car shown in Marty's video is not one of Lionel's scale ACF 40 ton cars, but rather is a traditional sized car. Lionel made a few of these with sounds, and even called the Pennsy one Vision, but it's not really.

To be fair, it actually is a Vision car.  It was one of the first three Vision pieces of rolling stock, along with a flatcar with a digital LCD screen "billboard," and a 3-pack of ethanol tank cars (one was Vision, with sound).   Only the ethanol tank cars were scale.  Thankfully, Lionel figured out that the market for the Vision Line was the people buying scale items.

I have one of those first Vision stock cars, and I have no problems running it with scale equipment.  I've seen enough film of 40's and 50's era mixed freight trains to know that you could see similar car types of sometimes very different sizes running together in the same consist.  And if anyone asks, I just say that the smaller cars were from a narrow gauge line that regularly interchanged with the standard O gauge line.

Andy

@Andy Hummell posted:

To be fair, it actually is a Vision car.  It was one of the first three Vision pieces of rolling stock, along with a flatcar with a digital LCD screen "billboard," and a 3-pack of ethanol tank cars (one was Vision, with sound).   Only the ethanol tank cars were scale.  Thankfully, Lionel figured out that the market for the Vision Line was the people buying scale items.

Actually, the Ethanol tank car set had two cars with sound, I have a couple sets of those as well as the matching three car sets.  Also, these cars had an angle sensor so it changed the sounds for speed changes and on curves.  It's disappointing that later Vision Line sound cars dropped this cool feature.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Actually, the Ethanol tank car set had two cars with sound, I have a couple sets of those as well as the matching three car sets.  Also, these cars had an angle sensor so it changed the sounds for speed changes and on curves.  It's disappointing that later Vision Line sound cars dropped this cool feature.

Thanks for refreshing my memory.  I guess I'm too used to the 3-packs coming now with only one Vision car per set -- another cool dropped feature, although at today's prices, I'd hate to see the price tag of a 3-pack with two Vision cars.  I also have that ethanol set, but haven't run them in years.

Andy

@Landsteiner posted:

"My problem is Lionel chose not to disclose the actual scale of these cars."

Sorry to be blunt.  The problem is you are in error about this issue.  Lionel's cars are scale size, not traditional in size.  The prototype for the Lionel model was smaller than the prototype of the Atlas and MTH cars. The error is yours, not Lionel's.  They did not mislead you.  You assumed that all stock cars would be the same size.  That is incorrect.

Sorry I missed this post. First I did not assume all cars are the same size. As a kid in the early 60's I got to watch the unloading of stock cars and the cattle had lots of room to turn around in these cars. These cars with the scale cattle they barely fit perpendicular to the door. As for the Lionel description it states "O Gauge". We already knew that, why not put scale? They do in other listing. I have taken more out since the beginning of this post and they would go great on a layout that uses semi-scale or traditional cars. In the end it doesn't matter, if your happy with the way it looks.. awsome.👍 From here on in if Lionel has it listed as the obvious... "O Gauge" I will really have to want it before I give them a call to verify what scale it is. Maybe Lionel made a mistake as the length looks close or maybe China, not like this hasn't happened before. What ever way a person looks at it if their happy great. They don't look right on my layout.. oh well. 😃

@Andy Hummell posted:

To be fair, it actually is a Vision car.  It was one of the first three Vision pieces of rolling stock, along with a flatcar with a digital LCD screen "billboard," and a 3-pack of ethanol tank cars (one was Vision, with sound).   Only the ethanol tank cars were scale.  Thankfully, Lionel figured out that the market for the Vision Line was the people buying scale items.

I have one of those first Vision stock cars, and I have no problems running it with scale equipment.  I've seen enough film of 40's and 50's era mixed freight trains to know that you could see similar car types of sometimes very different sizes running together in the same consist.  And if anyone asks, I just say that the smaller cars were from a narrow gauge line that regularly interchanged with the standard O gauge line.

Andy

You're right, Andy. Thanks very much for pointing this out. I'm glad I was wrong! I hadn't had my 29305 UP Chisholm Trail stockcar out to examine it, just looked at the catalog (which wasn't clear about it being Vision) and the box label (which doesn't mention Vision). Looking at the owner's manual, it was clear this is a Vision Line Legacy sound car, with all the features, and also an end of train device (with on/off switch if you don't want it on). Although it's a lttle smaller than the scale stockcars in dimensions, given its relatively long length (just 1/4 inch shorter than the scale version), it'll blend in fine with scale equipment, as you noted.

I noticed that Marty posted his video, shown above, on the Forum 4 years ago as well. He commented on the visual problem on his Pennsylvania version of the car with the overly long electrocoupler on one end. Interestingly, on the UP car, which came out the next year, they removed the electocoupler, so the coupler lengths are fine on this car.

@breezinup posted:

I noticed that Marty posted his video, shown above, on the Forum 4 years ago as well. He commented on the visual problem on his Pennsylvania version of the car with the overly long electrocoupler on one end. Interestingly, on the UP car, which came out the next year, they removed the electocoupler, so the coupler lengths are fine on this car.

I think electrocouplers are another way Lionel has missed the mark on the Vision Line rolling stock.  Does anyone actually use the electrocouplers on their Vision rolling stock?  Personally, I don't, and have had the electrocouplers open on their own at random times -- not often enough to be a problem, but often enough to be an annoyance.

Andy

@Andy Hummell posted:

I think electrocouplers are another way Lionel has missed the mark on the Vision Line rolling stock.  Does anyone actually use the electrocouplers on their Vision rolling stock?  Personally, I don't, and have had the electrocouplers open on their own at random times -- not often enough to be a problem, but often enough to be an annoyance.

Andy

Yep, cut the price and leave them off.   Now, if they could put electrocouplers on every freight car, that would make for some neat operational capability in the switch yards.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Now, if they could put electrocouplers on every freight car, that would make for some neat operational capability in the switch yards.

And would also put the Base3's 4-digit addressing to the test if every freight car had its own unique address, and I can only imagine the fun of finding that one freight car out of hundreds in the app.

Andy

@Andy Hummell posted:

I can only imagine the fun of finding that one freight car out of hundreds in the app.

We might need a better app at that point.