Vision Line - What's the Story, Lionel?

Very nicely presented

PJB,

I am also disappointed there have been so few Vision Line products. I think that the Vision Hudson and Challengers are the most amazing locomotives yet produced. I have long felt that Lionel utilizes its tech resources in other areas and, as a consequence, there is much less emphasis on Vision Line items. In addition, producing Vision Line items has probably become more problematic with changing conditions and valuations in China. Another factor might be that some of the Vision Line features might be very costly to repair for Lionel and that Lionel might not want to continue their two year warranty on those features. The last factor might be that Vision features work best on steam locomotives and not nearly so well on diesels or electrics. I had  Vision Line Centipede and I have a Vision Line GG-1. The Centipede added little or no value for me and the Vision Line GG-1 is essentially exactly the same as the JLC GG-1's except for sparkling pantographs, a second speaker, and a hatch that opens. Are those features worth so much money? That is a personal choice. For that matter, I would have gladly deleted the shrinking coal pile in the Vision Big Boy to save $200. I thought that feature was not very noticeable.

Scrappy

Lionel seems to be making it clear that they are just headed in a different direction. When you print a box for a Vision Line GG1 that says STEAM LOCOMOTIVE, and send them out knowing that..... tells me everything I need to know.

I guess my money is just headed in a different direction as well, and I have no problem with that.

I was always under the impression VL stuff was supposed to be new and unlike anything offered before. I think the 0-8-8-0 and 2-10-10-2 fit the bill rather nicely.

IMO the VL Hudson was a big step backward with the 100 year old muddy tooling. I was going to buy one, until I saw it.

I also feel Lionel watered down VL by adding smoke effects to the regular Legacy line.

Lionel has yet to offer a perfected smoke unit for stack smoke, putting 3 or 4 of them in VL stuff has probably been a nightmare for the service dept.

Certainly the bad fan motor epidemic was a factor.

I don't own any VL locos, but my quietest, most reliable smoke units are well before legacy and vl.

 I would be just fine with one smoke unit in my regular legacy stuff. One less headache.

Let's be real clear about it.  First, VisionLine was simply the Jerry Calabrese-era version of what was formally Lionel's JLC family of products.  New features may have been introduced with VisionLine, but the introduction of a super detailed high-end product line was certainly not a new concept with VisionLine.

Secondly, the intent was always to have VisionLine features percolate downward to the regular high-end product line, wherever feasible.  And therein is the wiggle-phrase, namely wherever feasible.  In case you haven't noticed, we're not living in Kansas anymore.    So what may have seemed feasible in 2007 has long been deemed a dream in 2017.

Communication, coordination, and overall supervision of overseas product manufacturing seems all but non-existent nowadays at Lionel.  I gave up all hope when we couldn't even get anyone Stateside to tell us whether Lionel's CZ observation car was gonna have a dome -- which it ultimately didn't.    And that wasn't even a VisionLine product for gosh sakes.  Similarly, the regular line of freightsounds boxcars was so poorly implemented, many folks returned them when they couldn't even hold a candle to the original VL Tankers with freight-sounds.  So much for VL features percolating downward to the regular product line.  

Then the latest glitch with the VL GG1 "steam locomotive" label on the box should pretty much tell us how little attention Lionel is really devoting to its flagship product line these days.  That was downright embarassing.

So given the fact that Lionel's Chinese factories are now pretty much telling Lionel Stateside how things are gonna get made (and at what cost), it's probably safe to conclude that whatever premises were in place when the JLC and VisionLine concepts were first envisioned have pretty much gone out the window over the past few years.  The VL BigBoy just might have been the last product truly worthy of the VisionLine name. 

Neither the recent VL GG1 nor the VL reefers with freight-sounds were products made with any features having true pizazz in the original VL sense.

Where Lionel plans to take the VisionLine product line from here is anyone's guess.     And that's really the kindest way to say it.

David

It may just be that the VISION LINE is not profitable if they continue with added features.  They most likely have no faith in their China contractor.

Rod Miller

romiller49 posted:

It may just be that the VISION LINE is not profitable if they continue with added features.  .... 

Profitability is often determined by looking at the "big picture", when corporations offer different families of product lines.  And believe it or not, the super high-end exotic products aren't always the most profitable.  And a worst-case scenario could very well be that the most exotic product isn't profitable at all -- but instead exists as a statement piece or an attention-grabber for brand recognition.

This was PRECISELY the situation with Sony's XES car audio systems of the early-1990's.  These components were super-expensive to say the least (i.e., the pricetag approaching that of a budget car ), and built with NASA-like quality and reliability.  Only crack audio shops could do them any justice when installing them in exotic automobiles.  And that wasn't cheap either!  Word on the street was Sony never made a dime on those XES systems, but those systems established Sony as a serious contender for the regular Mobile ES line as well as Sony's more affordable standard car audio gear -- both of which went on to be highly profitable product lines.

Just sayin... You often need to look at the big picture to understand the why's and wherefore's.  Then again, sometimes one of these things can also be an executive's pet project.  And when a new executive team takes over, all bets are off with the "not invented here" attitude.

David

I think the"Vision"at Lionel got blurred with the poor sales performance of the centipedes.

Maybe a visit to the optometrist to get their "VISION" corrected is in order.

A long shot"  Make VL in the USA. 

Brent

I think after the 2-10-10-2, CC2, Challengers, Hudsons and ES44s The vision line wasn't really anything special. Just my opinion here of course. I mean the BB, Centipedes, GG1s and Gensets are neat but the GG1 really wasn't anything cutting edge unless you count the sparking pans on top. The Gensets could've been alright if they smoked well. My uncle's NS unit now doesn't run or smoke and won't take a program at all, probably a board issue due to too much smoke fluid. Again, these are just my opinions. 

I agree with most of the comments on this post, but all I can say is that "I still get excited every time Lionel announces a new VisionLine offering"!  Happy railroading folks!  Bill' O-gauge Trains

Scrapiron Scher posted:

PJB,

I am also disappointed there have been so few Vision Line products. I think that the Vision Hudson and Challengers are the most amazing locomotives yet produced. I have long felt that Lionel utilizes its tech resources in other areas and, as a consequence, there is much less emphasis on Vision Line items. In addition, producing Vision Line items has probably become more problematic with changing conditions and valuations in China. Another factor might be that some of the Vision Line features might be very costly to repair for Lionel and that Lionel might not want to continue their two year warranty on those features. The last factor might be that Vision features work best on steam locomotives and not nearly so well on diesels or electrics. I had  Vision Line Centipede and I have a Vision Line GG-1. The Centipede added little or no value for me and the Vision Line GG-1 is essentially exactly the same as the JLC GG-1's except for sparkling pantographs, a second speaker, and a hatch that opens. Are those features worth so much money? That is a personal choice. For that matter, I would have gladly deleted the shrinking coal pile in the Vision Big Boy to save $200. I thought that feature was not very noticeable.

Scrappy

Hey Elliot, this is Bill Yates from youtube!  Just wandering how the new Munoz Lines layout is coming along?  Hope all is well with you and the family!  Take care bro and as always "Keep those trains rolling" LOL  P.S.  How about a youtube layout update video!  Bill's O-gauge Trains

Lionel seems to be targeting outlets such as Amazon for their product.  Many of their items are targeted at the non-traditional collector.  Look at the amount of licensed and "thematic" items that they are releasing.  If you go to York you will see tons of Lionchief sets.  Keep in mind that we are a niche market and Lionel is trying to get the most bang for the buck.  I, personally, am more of a traditionalist and while I like the technology, there is a point  past which I will NOT spend the kind of bucks this stuff is selling for.

It could simply be that the Vision line didn't pan out for them. As others have written high end lines in anything, like the Vl, often act as test beds for features to show up on regular cars, things like ABS, Fuel Injection used to be the province of high end cars, today are common for example, or on bikes Shimano components that were once top end go 'down the line' as new top end appears, and so forth. 

It could also be that the amount they spent on tooling and the like didn't pay out in the end, leaving out whether the VL units themselves were profitable, it could be they found out the advanced features weren't scalable down to the rest of the series, that happens not infrequently, or they weren't reliable, could be a lot of reasons. 

The big thing about the VL series is it very much is a niche market in a niche market, those with the resources to drop a grand and a half or more on an engine and care about the kind of features those units have to want to buy them is a small group, so it is also something that is likely to die out more easily. If Lionel is promoting the lionchief products (and I think personally it is a brilliant strategy, having command control on relatively affordable units is going to appeal to a lot more people, when I get my layout done sometime this century, I'll likely get some of those, even if I decide to hook up legacy and DCS as well), and on a starter set it will appeal a lot more to kids than a transformer did, to be honest. Plus that is the gateway for new people into the hobby, a 1500 buck engine is going to draw an already in the market train nut, not new generations, someone getting into the hobby likely isn't going to shell out 1500 bucks for something with a swinging bell and a great sound system and prototypical level detail. 

I doubt the VL stuff has anything to do with the stuff being made in China, without reopening tired old arguments, like many claims made that likely is a red herring, the real answers to Lionel's issues (real and imagined ) is likely with the management of the place, not the suppliers in China. If a box carrying a GG1 says Steam Engine, that likely is a management screw up in that they didn't even notice it and allowed it to be sold that way. If their suppliers in China can't supply a product or won't supply or it the quality is bad , that is management's fault for the way they handle things, pure and simply, it means that they had no contingency management, no back up plans, no real control over their own product, and they own that. 

My guess is that simply the VL line is very expensive to build and in the end didn't have the benefits they thought it would, and while maintaining the name to justify higher prices (basically a marketing gimmick), they are concentrating on the more volume things they can sell, as others pointed out Lionel is as much a branding firm as a train manufacturer, and that isn't a bad thing, the other merchandise they sell helps support the train line, since that other merchandise like Nascar stuff is hopefully sells a lot more.

. I think the 0-8-8-0 and 2-10-10-2 fit the bill rather nicely.

 

In retrospect I'm thinking this was a HUGE ('YUGE'?) costly mistake in and of itself....which created a debit to that year's balance sheet that may never be paid off!

First, incorporation of all these whiz-bang gizmatic features requires space....volume.  Ergo, they need BIG ('YUGE"?) locos to package the boards, smokers, bell-swingers, Pudgy-Boy speakers, tubes, cables, bulbs, batteries, micro-motors, connectors, etc., blah, blah.  It's no wonder their product VL product line-up so far has 2-10-10-2's, 0-8-8-0's, 4-8-8-4's, 4-6-6-4's, Centipedes, et al.   It's a concession to the packaging issues.......as well as, I suppose, to the usual 'Bigger-is-Better' marketing hype for a male-dominated hobby.

But, back to the selection of the uniquely ATSF 2-10-10-2 and PRR 0-8-8-0 engines.  The bill for the tooling of these engines must have been horrendous!  The dies, finishing, assembly, handling, packaging....good grief, Charlie Brown!!.....and TWO of them in the same year!!!  At what sales volume did they project a long-term profit.....especially after two-years of warranty coverage was absorbed?

But, now......several years down the road, and an O3R market that hasn't improved its buyer demographics that much in the meantime, what does THAT tooling do for an encore???  I mean, what would be the justification for running more production/sales volume of those two particular engines????  Venturing off into the BTO-realm of offering those engines in 50 road names/paint schemes?  An LIRR 2-10-10-2?  A Halloween-orange&Black 0-8-8-0???  And STILL being built 12,500 miles away....but probably not in the same factory by the same 'experienced' work staff

And, unless you include all of the original VL features in the follow-up runs of that tooling.....you've taken a step backwards in the minds/expectations of this choir, haven't you?  Further, as tough as the price pill was to swallow back then.....one can only imagine what the sticker would read this many years later.

I'm sorry.  I just don't get it.  And if there's anything that would cause the remains of JLC to stir, this has to be among them........IMHO, of course.

It's enough to lead one to the man-cave and a hopped-up craft brew just thinking about the absurdity of it all.

....for which it wouldn't take much in this day and age!.....even with the TV turned off!!!

Over 85% of the 360 guests we have had over to look at my train set have not been train aficionados of any sort. They do not know a switcher from a main line locomotive, and although they can tell that steam and diesel locomotives are different, they do not appear to have a preference - both pull trains.

They do express a lot of admiration for many of the features of the layout, and always have lots of questions regarding these. But when it comes to the trains themselves, the features that are always commented on are, in no specific order, (1) the articulation of the Big Boy, whether the MTH or the VL, (2) the passengers in the passenger cars, (3) the VL-BB whistle steam, (4) the steam from any steam locomotive, the (5) VL-BB coal tender replenishment, and all of the locomotive sound effects. Of all of these, the only one that has earned more "wow's" is number (5) - the VL-BB coal replenishment.

When asked which locomotive they like best, the VL-BB is by far the winner. I am very happy with my Vision Line Big Boy.

Alex

I find it interesting that the latest version of the little S-2 NYC electric loco has the "swinging bell" feature.  This looks like it's the only new feature on the updated version of that engine and isn't that limited to other Vision Line products?  Oh, yeah,  it also comes with the latest Legacy for control.  My old one, of course, still has regular TMCC on board and it runs and sounds just great.

Thinking about, however, what other special features could you add to a small, very early design electric locomotive?  The swinging bell feature about does it.

Paul Fischer

...... or it could just be with the changes of management and other influential employees there is no clear overall strategy at Lionel.  Or maybe there is and they are testing the waters with LC+/Bluetooth (Lionel will go where the consumer goes.) .... Don't overthink it, we are not behind the closed doors at the marketing/strategy meetings.   

Here's my contribution to the wild speculation and innuendo:  Lion Chief and LC+ probably have more profit margin and sell in much larger numbers than the Vision line.  Business is about the bottom line, period.

Pete

Didn't we do this with MTH a couple of months ago, asking what was wrong with them, etc.?  For me, and I don't attempt to be an aficionado, I look at the Lionel and MTH catalogs and in the aggregate I think we still have a lot of choices.  I remember the choice in the 80s growing up and all we had were warmed up versions of postwar, many of which lacked postwar quality in terms of how they ran.  Today, sure the stuff can be a pain in the rear when it doesn't work but I think this forum has a tendency to amplify the bad news - such is the nature of  all forums.  And when the new stuff runs correctly, it is fantastic.  

Frankly and and with all respect, I think a lot of the ccomplaints with Lionel and MTH have merit, in terms of QC, but I think a lot of the latest rounds of whining about Lionel is based on the fact people are po'd Mike Reagan left so they no longer like Lionel.  So they knock the product incessantly, beyond what in my perception the facts warrant.  Just my .02.

All I can add to this banter is my recollection about the sticker shock when VL diesels were first offered at $1000+ a copy. I remember thinking that the "vision" was somehow blurred. "Not in this lifetime", or so I thought.

Fast-forward a few years; I don't buy many new engines anymore because how many do you really need? But when something neat comes along I am in. And the VL Bigboy I just had to have, and it is great IMO. Same with the whimsical Daylight Cabforward. To each their own I guess.

Rod

Ray Lombardo posted:

Didn't we do this with MTH a couple of months ago, asking what was wrong with them, etc.?  For me, and I don't attempt to be an aficionado, I look at the Lionel and MTH catalogs and in the aggregate I think we still have a lot of choices.  I remember the choice in the 80s growing up and all we had were warmed up versions of postwar, many of which lacked postwar quality in terms of how they ran.  Today, sure the stuff can be a pain in the rear when it doesn't work but I think this forum has a tendency to amplify the bad news - such is the nature of  all forums.  And when the new stuff runs correctly, it is fantastic.  

 

Frankly and and with all respect, I think a lot of the ccomplaints with Lionel and MTH have merit, in terms of QC, but I think a lot of the latest rounds of whining about Lionel is based on the fact people are po'd Mike Reagan left so they no longer like Lionel.  So they knock the product incessantly, beyond what in my perception the facts warrant.  Just my .02.

 

 

Ray, this isn't the "what's wrong with MTH conversation."  If you read the original post, it is intended to offer  thoughts for Lionel to consider (if they are even tuning in?) about what the Vision product line was touted to be, the recent reality, and how at least one person feels about it.  And this isn't a complaint.  Each new Vision product does offer some new feature(s). It's just that each new Vision locomotive doesn't offer some new feature(s) AND all, or some critical mass of, prior Vision features that would be prototypical on the new offering.  

This product line has been a success from a hobby interest standpoint.  We continue to get behind the product and buy it.  In return, it would be nice if the Vision mission was actively and continuously pursued to continue to bring never-before-seen offerings to market.  As a poor example, imagine a steamer with all the smoke effects of the VL Challenger, plus maybe blow-down, steam chest and maybe a depleting coal load and the self-adjusting close-coupling steamer-tender coupler system.  Incorporate some new feature(s) into that locomotive and I dare say few folks who play in the 3-rail scale market could resist.  Especially if Lionel could get QC under control.  And, this product paradigm would be consistent with the goal of,  if he were alive today, Cowan seeing these products as an extension of his "advancing the art vision."  My point was, maybe Lionel needs to hear this.  Regularly.  Maybe a wake-up call of sorts, or maybe just a reminder of the expectation and hobby support for products that bring the "vision" to life. 

Peter