What can we do to get Lionel to create modern rolling stock

Well, if you could demonstrate that the sales for the "modern" cars made by American Models shot up when Lionel produced the "Modern" engines, that might be something that they would respect.

I think that you really have to demonstrate that there is some demand out there for the product, I don't think that they will "buy into" building a product to create demand. 

I would bet that Lionel feels that, for such a small market, that they will build only for the most popularly modeled era, which in all scales seems to be the "transition era"

LittleTommy

Rocco:  I wish I could say something to be encouraging about Lionel, but as I said yesterday even MTH is not interested.  

I think you guys would do better if you approached Ron at American Models.  Especially since so may of you talk like you are more scale than Flyer.  Have you thought of AM as your real solution?

BANDOB posted:

I don't understand. What is not "modern" about big boxcars, auto parts cars, tank trains,  auto carriers, double stack cars, spine cars, etc. etc.

 

 

Being this is the S Scale Trains Forum, such things do not exist in the Flyer line.

Perhaps the OP should add "for Flyer" in the subject line or change to "What can we do to encourage modern American Flyer rolling stock from Lionel."

Rusty

Rocco posted:

 

Some thoughts I have had were creating a survey or poll.  I think whatever we come up with has to be a can't miss hit and once tooled can produced in many multiple road names and be part of multi-car sets.  It needs to be something that a significant number of people would commit to in buying.

What does everyone think?  What are your ideas?  Maybe we can start an effort here.

--Rocco--

Do you really think the members of this forum are representative of the entire S community?  Do you think there is a large enough sample available here to get a valid answer?  What will prevent the non-S people from participating in the survey?

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

My apologies. Saw it in "recent posts" and did not realize it was in S Scale forum.

If enough people asked for specific modern freight cars using the CONTACT US section on lionel.com then they will do something.

"I think you guys would do better if you approached Ron at American Models.  Especially since so may of you talk like you are more scale than Flyer.  Have you thought of AM as your real solution?"

This approach makes the most sense. American Models rolling stock works right out of the box, allows scale or high rail wheels (easily interchangeable if a user changes his or her mind) and American Flyer-style or scale style couplers, and can handle relatively narrow radii if the car is long. Replacement parts are readily available if a user breaks something or wants to modify the car. Even with all this flexibility, the prices are reasonable. If Ron announces a product, it is often available the following month. He doesn't cancel the project and accidentally let you know two years later in the month you expect to receive the product you paid for two years earlier. The rolling stock represents cars you see or have seen some time in your life--unless zombies have invaded your town or there is a Life Saver factory or a baseball team with their own railroads that run locally.

American Models likes to surprise customers with models that suddenly show up fully clothed and ready to run, like the RS-11s. However, in the past Ron did ask for advances for the Pacific locomotive to offset the high cost of development. If there is a consensus on a model that S gauges would support and we were willing to support the effort with advance payment, that might work. Autoracks, modern hoppers, and container cars are the three that have been mentioned most often on this forum as desirable modern rolling stock. If there were a poll on this site, perhaps the results could convince him to entertain the notion of developing a new car with advance funding. At the moment American Models appears to be the only trustworthy source of S gauge rolling stock or locomotives.

He (Ron at AM) might be the most "trust worthy" source, but compaired to L&M there seems to be a real lack of information flow.  Maybe because no one asks him, I don't know.  But I don't see any interviews with him (or Des Plaines Hobbies) and neither seem to post here (even if this Little corner of the Internet is not the end all be all of S gauge chatter). Lionel and MTH will answer our questions (more often than not) we just generally don't like what they have to say.  

Reading the intro to AMs new catalog, there is talk of economy sucks this and that, not promising in the way of new tooled stuff. 

Ben

Guys, a friend of mine sells AM and visits with him pretty often.  Word from my friend is Ron has been fully engaged in the construction of a new building for his business.  The building is about done.  

When I have called to ask a question about a product or an order I often get him to talk to.  Why don't one of you call and ask to talk with him.  The worst that can happen is he will say no. 

American Models 248-437-6800

This week I scanned about 25 years worth of S Gaugian and noted that there were several interviews with Ron in the past. There were also advertisements about development on GP35s, SD60s, F40PHs, and cabooses. S Helper did the same, and every one of the promised products from both companies became a reality. There were far more interviews with Lionel personnel who made vague generalizations about the value of American Flyer and S Gauge and who promised changes in the future. Those changes were generally their personnel replacements with new pictures who began their interviews with the same vague generalizations. The introductions of the U33C, Challenger, SD70ACe, ES44AC, and cylindrical hoppers created some real excitement in our hobby, but much of that appears to be the work of a group in Santa Clara that may be gone. I have talked to Lionel people on the phone, written emails, and even wrote letters; but I have gotten no response. If I call American Models, I can often talk to Ron himself; and he is always helpful with advice on a modification or the rare repair. He won't divulge what's coming, though; and he stated as much in an S Gaugian interview years ago. He didn't like to make promises or set dates because there were always delays, and delays made people unhappy. Apparently a "delay" to him was a slip measured in months, not in years.  

Getting back to the original topic of this thread, if Lionel ever catalogs a modern freight car, or anything new for that matter, the best way to get it into production is to pre-order those items. Those who say "I want to see what it looks like first," are the ones who kill a project. I ordered all the prototype paint schemes in the cylindrical hoppers even though the first run was unusable due to the weird scale flange, out of gauge/Flyer coupler combo. I still ordered the second run with deeper flanges still sitting too high with the incomprehensible bolster design. They'd at least run out of the box.

So I have a fleet of cars to re-truck. At least they exist.

I trust Lionel would have made a nice body for the 57' reefers, how they would have rode on the trucks would have been a complete crap-shoot. Correct height would be nice. Things like that count.

I agree, AM may have a few tricks up their sleeves when the economy recovers. I have faith in them.

I haven't checked to confirm, but Ron of American Models usually attends and has a booth at the Spring S Spree.  So if you are near Strongsville (Cleveland), Ohio this May 12-14th, stop by this year's event hosted by the Cuyahoga Valley S Gauge Association.  You can get more information at the CVSGA Website. 

Ron made a surprise release of the RS-11's at the last Spree held last year in the Dayton area.

Mike A.

TOKELLY posted:

However, in the past Ron did ask for advances for the Pacific locomotive to offset the high cost of development. If there is a consensus on a model that S gauges would support and we were willing to support the effort with advance payment, that might work. Autoracks, modern hoppers, and container cars are the three that have been mentioned most often on this forum as desirable modern rolling stock. If there were a poll on this site, perhaps the results could convince him to entertain the notion of developing a new car with advance funding. At the moment American Models appears to be the only trustworthy source of S gauge rolling stock or locomotives.

Actually, I think the Pacific was one of the last collaborations with S-Helper Service, hence the deposits.  I remember the drawings being in an SHS newsletter.  No deposits were sought for the 4-8-4 and it was already in stock when the flyers went out.

Still...  If Ron's constructing a new building, things may be going pretty well for AM.  He sure is good at keeping his light under a basket.  Maybe he'll be in a better position to take advantage of the drought from Lionel and MTH now.

Rusty

What was the time interval between the AM RS11 and the previous locomotive offering?

Rich

The T&P GP9's arrived in December 2014.  (Not really a new product, except for paint.)  They were due in October, but were delayed by the west coast dock strike.

The RS11's arrived in July 2015.

The prior to those releases, the SD60's and Train Master's were the previous *NEW* locomotives arriving waaaay back in 2006.

Rusty

Quite a gap. Thanks Rusty.

Rich

So the thought is that this forum may not be representative of the entire S gauge market.  I have a friend who is very active in S clubs in the Central states area.  He has often said that groups like our are not representative of the S market, yet many of the top asks are the same.  I think we need to start somewhere.  We have to pick something to tell Lionel to make that

1) Appeals to both Hirail and scale S potential customers (minor cost to convert to full scale)

2) Can be made for a reasonable cost

3) Would be a piece that you would buy multiple cars with different numbers (i.e. Sold as 3 car sets)

4) Multiple road names could be issued each year.

I suggest we come up with a list of 4 to 5 items.   I would post it here, on the Yahoo forum and the Facebook page.  I would then ask those who know club members to circulate the list and get results from clubs.  I would be happy to compile and share this with Lionel or any other manufacture who would have interest.

To start us off I would offer the following for consideration

1)89' Auto Carrier (Auto Racks)

2) TTX Flat cars with trailers

3) 60" Boxcars

NOTE: Would have listed the 57' Reefers but I am convinced that Lionel will not reconsider.

Let's first come up with our list then we can vote on what we want and how many we might buy if they are made a quality pieces.

--Rocco--

SPSF posted:

Did the 86 foot boxcar and the 89 foot Autorack almost bankrupt Lionel?

I can't see why they would run a 2nd release of these if the sales weren't there.

Maybe more people need to pester them.

 

I think this post is meant for the S gauge market. Not O.

My 2 cents - I bet Lionel would consider an AF scale rolling stock piece if there were enough S modelers to buy the offering and help Lionel turn a profit. As we all know, tooling isn't cheap.

Certainly seems the AF catalog gets smaller and smaller. And they keep cataloging the cylindrical hoppers. Must mean they have a ton in stock. I think the best thing S-gaugers could do is preorder what they can from the catalogs to show Lionel there's still a demand. Then maybe they'll consider cutting tools for a new piece.

I enjoy the new Waffle-side boxcars despite the fact hat may others may not.  

RadioRon posted:

I enjoy the new Waffle-side boxcars despite the fact hat may others may not.  

There were some prototype 40' waffle-side boxcars.  Pretty rare, but they did exist...

The prototype's waffle pattern is different than Flyer's and of course, the GN car has a plug door, but the Flyer model itself came off much better than it's O27 counterpart:

And they're detailed enough to hold their own in a scale environment:

This one belongs to a friend of mine.  I've considered getting one or two for scalification, but another project I don't need right now.

Rusty

banjoflyer posted:

Rocco posted:

 

To start us off I would offer the following for consideration

1)89' Auto Carrier (Auto Racks)

 

 

 

Well while those would be nice to see I'm not sure they could negotiate r20 curves. At 89' that scales out to about 16.75 inches in S scale.

The SD70ACe  at 74.25 feet long scales out to right at 14" and runs on r20 curves just fine.  Maybe if we could accept a little "compression" in size a 14" car would almost be equal to a much earlier autorack from 1957 in S scale. It ain't modern but it did exist.

from Wiki: "In late 1957, Canadian National CN) introduced an innovative group of bi-level auto carriers. These CN cars were similar to conventional boxcars, except they had a second floor and doors at both ends of the car instead of the usual side doors. They were huge by the standards of the time; the cars were 75 ft (22.86 m) long and could carry eight vehicles. These cars were a big success and helped lead to the development of today's enclosed auto racks."

While these cars could run on r20 curves they certainly don't look like modern autoracks but more like boxcars:

The fastrack r27 curves would accomodate longer cars but without any long cars to test who knows what the longest smooth running car might be? It's a chicken or the egg problem. Maybe a kitbasher will throw a set of trucks under 16.75 inch stick like a 5 gallon bucket paint stirrer and see what happens!

Mark

I would guess that IF Lionel could be convinced to try modern Flyer cars again, forget about the 80+ foot long cars.  Yeah, they'd be impressive and neato, (Heck, an 86' auto parts boxcar is even impressive in N Scale and the old Atlas ones made it around a 9-3/4" radius curve...) but in the current climate, a snowball in an extremely hot place would stand a better chance.  I also doubt you'd see anything that wasn't in already the O Gauge line.

The truck catastrophe aside, Lionel has shown that they can make some really nice scale proportioned stuff in S.

So...

If there were to be a valid poll for lobbying purposes: 1) Stop using the generic phrase "modern car," get more specific.  2) Look at what's been available in the O Gauge catalog, Lionel already has the information collected.  3) Settle on three different cars in order of desirability.  4) Lobby away.

Rusty

A concern of putting accurately scaled 89" cars into production is how many could be sold? Most layouts could not accommodate them. I have no doubt a 16.75" car could run on 20"curves with truck mounted couplers. The problem is the center of the car would hit the Flyer switch stands and derail. Even the AM Budd cars rub on the SHS switch stands. A key difference between the long diesel engines and the even longer freight cars is the distance between the truck pivot points. They are much closer together on the diesel than they would be on an 89' scale length freight car. The layout I have under construction has 30" minimum curves, easements and #6 and #8 turnouts. But it could not run a 16.75" car without significant changes to clearances, scenery and wider track separation in some curves. I have used all the large S models available to set clearances on the layout including the oversize Big Boy but the overhang at the center of an 89' scale freight car would be a killer.

All the O Gauge O72  track layouts would look more realistic if they switched to S Gauge track with 36" and 40" curves.

Make it possible to put the S gauge track over the O gauge track and people would have a reason to buy more S Scale.

Andrew 

First off in regards to the comment that we should look at the Lionel catalog as they already have the info for those items, all 3 of the items I listed were in recent Lionel catalogs in the O gauge section.

Next I am not an expert but how long are the S Passenger cars in relation to the Autoracks.  I mention this because they seem to negotiate everything just fine.  

In addition we have R20, R24 (MTH) R27 and R30.  I think this is a solvable problem.  

Now if 89' Autoracks are too large to get the sell thru because not everyone can use them, that's OK.  What are your suggestions for more modern rolling stock that SD70's and ES44's could pull?

Again let's develop a list of what we would be willing to buy.  Then we will float it out to as many people, forums and clubs that we can and then share it with the Lionel, MTH and American Models world.

--Rocco--

I'm no freight car guru...but it would seem we could use a tank car that is seen on the rails today.  

Ben

To me, one of the biggest downsides to modeling "modern" is the length much modern equipment has evolved to.  I routinely switch huge covered hoppers, center beams, etc, that are almost as long as the earlier piggy back flats.  Also, the modern 6 axle locomotives are L-O-N--G.

In a model railroad environment, long equipment can aggravate several issues:

* Mechanically bending it around model railroad-sized curvature and switches. The tighter your curves, the worse the problem will become.

* The way longer equipment physically shrinks your layout in regards to siding/spur track capacities.

* To me, longer equipment is aesthetically unsightly going around model railroad-sized curvature/switches.

When it comes to model railroading, give me 40' boxcars and 4 axle diesels any day.

I'd be a buyer for Lionel  S Scale Auto Racks...................................

Regards, Swafford

Here is an experiment. Find a Lionel Traditional O gauge CENTER BEAM flat car with removable trucks in a clearance sale at a train store. Remove the O gauge trucks. Install S gauge trucks and couplers. Test it out on S Gauge track with S Scale freight cars.

Andrew

A lot of what-ifs and suggestions for others to execute.  For other than real scalers and maybe collectors an 89' car is a very long car.  I'm in the scale camp but a layout with even 36" minimum curves (what mine will have) an 89' autorack will look a little strange and along side 80 foot plus foot passenger cars that are shortened to 74 feet or so. I've started but am long stalled on a conversion of the Lionel 'toy' autorack to S scale, which when done will be shorter in length and height than the 89' prototype and look good on the same layout as the shortened passenger cars and not too bad with SSA well cars (husky stacks).   Part of the my delay other than moving is that I'm making parts to give the conversion more detail and better fidelity and I have to learn how to prep the car and new parts for painting and how to paint.  There are easier conversions of this car than what I'm attempting.

Another member of our club (PPSSW) in the Twin Cities area has taken the center beam of the Lionel opera window beam car and built an S scale beam car that looks quite good. 

For whatever reasons Lionel has stumbled in the scale and/or modern S scale/gauge market.  I can see how their gun shy and IMHO they have a lot of good will to make up for among scalers for the disaster of a scale truck that are on the first and current catalog listing of the cylindrical hoppers.  I had such high hopes when I heard they had rotating endcaps only to find the trucks are unusable for even my less that pure scale inclinations.  I have 10 or so cylindrical hoppers and until I find a reliable and easy way to modify the trucks' bolsters I will install AM trucks on them with about 1/10" nylon washer to set the car floor at the correct height.  I was also quite disappointed when they canceled the 57' reefer.  I had ordered several even knowing the truck issue might not be solved.  I'd rather see the model with correctable flaws than no model.

Waiting for AM to fill the modern void might take some time.  My impression is that SD60s and PS CD2 3 bay covered hoppers were slow sellers.  The 50 foot box cars have been around forever, but lack details and the details they have are rather crude.  The AM tank cars are pretty nice if a little bit chunky in the ladders and piping.  Ron Bashista also needs to make money and the scale's market wheel house is steam and into transition era and Flyer/Hirail.  He seems to keep his own council when deciding what to produce.

S Scale America has for S scale a fabulous offering of modern era cars including several flavors of 50 plus foot box cars and reefers, the Bethgon coal porters, Husky Stack well cars and the rebadged old PRS centerflow covered hoppers.  I think a reasonably modern gondola is also being considered.  The master mind there, Ron Sebastian, seems to be very much self directed and I don't know how open he is to persuasion.

Good luck with your persuasion efforts.

Ben

Ben Trousdale posted:

 I think a reasonably modern gondola is also being considered.  The master mind there, Ron Sebastian, seems to be very much self directed and I don't know how open he is to persuasion.

Good luck with your persuasion efforts.

Ben

Here's a photo of a test shot of the Des Plaines Thrall gondola purloined off the S-Scale Yahoo board:

According to his last post on Yahoo, Ron will be bringing a sample to O/S West in Santa Clara this week.  Unknown if it will be a standard kit, flat kit or assembled.  ETA is also unknown, other than he's hoping for a "timely delivery."

Rusty

Ben Trousdale posted:

 

S Scale America has for S scale a fabulous offering of modern era cars including several flavors of 50 plus foot box cars and reefers, the Bethgon coal porters, Husky Stack well cars and the rebadged old PRS centerflow covered hoppers.  I think a reasonably modern gondola is also being considered.  The master mind there, Ron Sebastian, seems to be very much self directed and I don't know how open he is to persuasion.

 

I am confused… this thread is about the lack of modern freight cars.  However, there seems to be plenty of variety available from S Scale America.

What gives?

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

Tom Stoltz posted:

Ben Trousdale posted:

 

S Scale America has for S scale a fabulous offering of modern era cars including several flavors of 50 plus foot box cars and reefers, the Bethgon coal porters, Husky Stack well cars and the rebadged old PRS centerflow covered hoppers.  I think a reasonably modern gondola is also being considered.  The master mind there, Ron Sebastian, seems to be very much self directed and I don't know how open he is to persuasion.

 

I am confused… this thread is about the lack of modern freight cars.  However, there seems to be plenty of variety available from S Scale America.

What gives?

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

The main complaints I've heard is some of their prototypes are getting long in the tooth and there hasn't been any new additions to the product line. 

And of course they're not Lionel/American Flyer...

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:

 

And of course they're not Lionel/American Flyer...

Rusty

Does that really matter? 

Tom

S Scale Americas products are really nice, it would be nice to see the product line grow a little in the way of their "modern" rolling stock.  Only real issue is the limited selection of road names and paint schemes on their current product.  Wonderful Evans box cars, nice redo of the PRS center flow (need MORE road names here) and I think their PFE reefer can rival anyone's in any scale.  I have a nice collection of BNSF coal porter cars for a unit train with my BNSF ES44s. 

Ben

Tom Stoltz posted:

Rusty Traque posted:

 

And of course they're not Lionel/American Flyer...

Rusty

Does that really matter? 

Tom

It sure does to many of the Lionel/AF crowd.

How it matters to me...

Lionel has been around 100 plus years (even if only in name), MTH has 35 years under their belt and has quite the foot print in the hobby.  

Pacific Rail Shops - gone

Downs Models - gone

SHS - gone (obviously the product line sill has a heart beat)

I'm sure one of the more "seasoned" guys could throw up another dozen names of companies that have faded off into the S gauge sunset.  

LOVE Des Plains Hobbies stuff...but what happens when Des Plaines hobbies is gone?  Lionel and MTH will be here for a long time (maybe their S products won't be - who knows).  As a guy who is making a commitment to S gauge, I am concerned if S gauge can make the commitment to me....I am comfortable (or should say I feel I should be) with a company that seems to have the legs to go the long hall.  

Side note...if S scale America had a decent website one would not have to go to a "S" specific train show to discover them.  We talk about wanting to bring in new blood, but it does not always seem that the manufactures of our products do the best job of putting S infront of people.  

Ben

The topic for this thread is how to get Lionel to produce modern freight cars.  They haven't really unless you consider an early to mid '60s cylindrical hopper modern.  For my freelance 'looks and quacks like a...' purposes it does.  But the effort wasn't adequately executed in this scaler's opinion and along with the canceled 57' reefer seems to have scared big L from modern.

S Scale America has the best selection in S scale for modern cars.  Offerings overall, however, are quite thin:  No 4750 +/- cuft covered hoppers in any of its iterations and copycat variants, no updated ACF center flows, no real variety of tank cars, no modern flat cars, no modern reefers, no modern high cubes, no modern beam or truss cars, no modern auto racks, only one style of modern open hopper car, only one style of well car, only one style of modern tank car, only one pending style of modern gondola, ...  I'm out of breath!

My now not-so-secret hope would be for someone like Atlas to pick up and expand the SSA line if when Des Plaines/Ron S. decides he's done with producing new product.  (Dream on, silly!)

Ben

Ben