What can we do to get Lionel to create modern rolling stock

NotInWI posted:

How it matters to me...

Side note...if S scale America had a decent website one would not have to go to a "S" specific train show to discover them.  We talk about wanting to bring in new blood, but it does not always seem that the manufactures of our products do the best job of putting S infront of people.  

Ben

Out of curiosity, I Googled S Scale America. They were the first one listed, I went right to their site… So I am a bit puzzled by this statement. If you want modern freight cars, they are right there.

Why try to goad Lionel into something that is an apparently small market? Heck, S is a comparatively small market let alone S modern… In S, if it weren’t for the cottage industries, we would be nowhere.

Tom

To see what might run on a Gilbert layout I experimented with an American models passenger car. The car is 13.25" long and the three axle truck mounting points  are 9" apart. These cars run fine on original Gilbert track as well as SHS and Fastrack, all of which is nominally 20"radius. They will not operate on a smaller radius since the couplers are right at the stairs. At 10" between the truck mounting points the center of the car hits the Gilbert switch housings. At 11" the car center hits the housing on the uncouplers.

To calculate the maximum freight car length with two axle trucks I used 1.25 inches in from the car end as a typical truck mounting point for freight cars. That calculates to a maximum freight car length of 12.5" that will operate on a Gilbert layout unless the trucks are mounted non-prototypically farther in from the car ends. A postwar American Flyer boxcar is about 8" long so these would appear quite large in comparison. Any S gauge freight car that will not run on a Gilbert layout will be selling into a much smaller market so they would have to meet all the expectations of the S scale modelers to be viable. I do not see that as Lionel's S gauge strategy.

Tom

They have a web site for Des Plaines Hobbies (the store), go to that site and you can find your way to an inventory that lists the S Scale America products...without pictures...the Google search just takes you to the listing of S gauge product on the Des Plaines hobbies website.  

Lame website, and hardly does the product line any justice.  I would have thought they would have a web page that displays the product in a way that has some curb appeal.  Looks more like an auto parts website than anything.  

Ben

From reading this topics replies I have a list of 5 items that should be considered by Lionel

1) Modern Tank Car

2) Centerbeam 73' Car

3) Auto Racks

4) 60' Boxcar

5) TTX Flat Cars

Are there any others we should be considering?

--Rocco--

1) Modern Tank Car

2) Centerbeam 73' Car

3) Auto Racks

4) 60' Boxcar

5) TTX Flat Cars

6) Pullman Standard 4750 CUFT PS-CD2 covered hopper 

Added as requested

AmFlyer posted:

To see what might run on a Gilbert layout I experimented with an American models passenger car. The car is 13.25" long and the three axle truck mounting points  are 9" apart. These cars run fine on original Gilbert track as well as SHS and Fastrack, all of which is nominally 20"radius. They will not operate on a smaller radius since the couplers are right at the stairs. At 10" between the truck mounting points the center of the car hits the Gilbert switch housings. At 11" the car center hits the housing on the uncouplers.

To calculate the maximum freight car length with two axle trucks I used 1.25 inches in from the car end as a typical truck mounting point for freight cars. That calculates to a maximum freight car length of 12.5" that will operate on a Gilbert layout unless the trucks are mounted non-prototypically farther in from the car ends. A postwar American Flyer boxcar is about 8" long so these would appear quite large in comparison. Any S gauge freight car that will not run on a Gilbert layout will be selling into a much smaller market so they would have to meet all the expectations of the S scale modelers to be viable. I do not see that as Lionel's S gauge strategy.

I think that is an excellent analysis. S-scale is such a small market that it does not make business sense for Lionel to further fragment their market.

I don't disagree about fragmenting the market but my position is we should pick something that the most number of people will buy.  I think those two thoughts are fairly close.  Now I can't confirm if a 60', 73' for 89' foot car will run on R20 curves.  I will leave that for others to debate and I am sure Lionel would have the expertise to know the answer.

How long is the longest S Passenger car.  I have heard 74' to 79'. Does anyone know the answer?

--Rocco--

Is there a market for modern stuff? Most Lionel or 3-rail types I know make such a big deal about their pasts and the appeal of Lionel, I was always left wondering if there was much of a market for anything out of the steam era as most folks I know into 3-rail are mostly interested in the steam era...

Not trying to start an argument, just legitimately asking a question as I wouldn't have thought there was much of a market for modern-era 3-rail models...

The AM passenger cars I discussed above are advertised as 72'. The AM Budd cars are advertised as 74'. AM also makes 80' passenger cars but they will not run on Gilbert track and turnouts. They require the 27" radius AM track. The longest freight car that will run on Flyer track and turnouts would be a 65' to 67' car. This is based on the inside curve overhang caused by the distance between the truck mounting points on the car. The Thrall center beam flat car should work. 

OK so or list is as follows:

1) Modern Tank Car (Should have no issues with R20 Curves)

2) Centerbeam 73' Car/ 63' Car (73' may have issues/63' will have no issues with R20 Curves)

3) Auto Racks (May have issues with R20 curves but should be OK with R27)

4) 60' Boxcar (Should have no issues with R20 Curves)

5) TTX Flat Cars (May have issues with R20 curves but should be OK with R27)

6) Pullman Standard 4750 CUFT PS-CD2 covered hopper (Should have no issues with R20 Curves)

Let's finalize the list by this weekend and then I will at that time create a message topic where people can vote on what they would be willing to buy (Without knowing price and road names) to give an indication as to which would have greater sales potential.

I will also try to post on the yahoo boards and Facebook.  I will also ask at that time anyone belonging to clubs to share the selection and get feedback to me so I can pull all of the data together.

If at that time anyone from Lionel, MTH, American models wants to discuss this further, they can email me here, private message me or even ask for my phone number. 

Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

--Rocco--

Rocco posted:

OK so or list is as follows:

1) Modern Tank Car (Should have no issues with R20 Curves)

2) Centerbeam 73' Car/ 63' Car (73' may have issues/63' will have no issues with R20 Curves)

3) Auto Racks (May have issues with R20 curves but should be OK with R27)

4) 60' Boxcar (Should have no issues with R20 Curves)

5) TTX Flat Cars (May have issues with R20 curves but should be OK with R27)

6) Pullman Standard 4750 CUFT PS-CD2 covered hopper (Should have no issues with R20 Curves)

 

Let's finalize the list by this weekend and then I will at that time create a message topic where people can vote on what they would be willing to buy (Without knowing price and road names) to give an indication as to which would have greater sales potential.

I will also try to post on the yahoo boards and Facebook.  I will also ask at that time anyone belonging to clubs to share the selection and get feedback to me so I can pull all of the data together.

If at that time anyone from Lionel, MTH, American models wants to discuss this further, they can email me here, private message me or even ask for my phone number. 

Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

--Rocco--

If you would really like to get a feel for what people want, perhaps you should include a category like; “not interested in modern rolling stock”. That way you might get a better reading of the overall market.

Tom Stoltz

Rocco,

I know you mentioned that you didn't think Lionel would reconsider producing the 57' Reefers, but shouldn't they be on the list anyway?  If enough people show interest maybe they will change their mind.

Mike A.

I agree with Mike A about the 57' reefer.  I was trying to get Smoky Mountain to make the 57' reefers and had rounded up enough interest to get it on Jim King's list.  It dropped off his list after Lionel announced the car and now is back on his list because Lionel canceled the project, though timing is rather vague.  The basic body style goes back to the '70s with revisions to the roof in later versions.

Ben Trousdale

Interesting thought about the 57' Mechanical Reefers.  I originally had them on my list and per someone's suggestion they said adding them back on would be like rubbing Lionel's nose in it.  As such they said if you want them to have an open mind, don't include something they already cancelled, instead present new items that they may have an open mind to because they never considered them.

What do you all think?  Is this a valid position?

--Rocco--

Tom,

With all due respect, the “not interested in modern rolling stock” position does not need any support as Lionel has been very successful at fulfilling that goad in the last few years.  This topic is how to get Lionel to make more Modern rolling stock to support the SD70's ES44's etc. that they produce.  As a separate topic if this is successful I will be happy to broaden the approach.  For now I see the lack of Modern rolling stock is where the real shortage is.

--Rocco--

I have with m fried Martin been doing some research on train lengths and curves R20 and R27.  In regards to the TTX double stacks.  In real life there were two main versions 40ft and 53ft well sizes.  The 53ft well has a length coupler to of 76ft 9 inches (74ft car length).  This may be able to handle R20 curves.  The 40 well definitely should be able to handle it.

In regards to the Autoracks, the very modern 85ft+ ones will be too large for the R20 curves but in 1957 they made Autoracks that carried 8 cars and were 75ft in length.  These may be able to negotiate R20 curves.

Thoughts?

--Rocco--

Rocco posted:

Tom,

With all due respect, the “not interested in modern rolling stock” position does not need any support as Lionel has been very successful at fulfilling that goad in the last few years.  This topic is how to get Lionel to make more Modern rolling stock to support the SD70's ES44's etc. that they produce.  As a separate topic if this is successful I will be happy to broaden the approach.  For now I see the lack of Modern rolling stock is where the real shortage is.

--Rocco--

 

Hi Rocco,

It was only a suggestion meant to present a broader view. As I see it, you are presenting a petition to Lionel of what you would like them to produce rather than a survey of the potential market from the 0GF side of the S gauge community. We seem to have an oversupply of ‘I want’ as opposed to ‘allow me to demonstrate the market potential’.

just 2¢, Tom Stoltz

Tom,

I appreciate your two cents.  I guess I am concerned that for "S" to have a future a variety of time periods need to be represented.  The Pre-Mid 50's has a lot of options.  The late 60's+ does not.

Just looking for some balance so we can have future growth.

--Rocco--