Lionel Base 3: Worth the Upgrade? Video Review & Discussion

Got it. Love it. Use the app.

Coming from the live music production world, app updates and revisions to both software and firmware is normal.

I run DCS and Legacy/Base 3, and I am incorporating my new WTIU into the setup as well.

For me it was not worth it. In fact, it's a total boat anchor at this point and Lionel really screwed this up badly. The day I crashed my nice 3rd Rail M1b into the side of a moving boxcar was the day I disconnected it. I think it was a huge mistake for them to cram the Lionchief  stuff into the works. The app is awful, overcrowded and unintuitive. I can't believe Lionel made something that made my layout actually run worse. I've never hooked up a piece of Lionel TMCC/Legacy hardware and had that happen! They would have done well to study the good works of TMCC and Legacy before they attempted this. Simplicity made that stuff great. I had high hopes for this system and thought it could future-proof my layout since they didn't want to update Legacy properly but right now I am absolutely unimpressed. In any case I am having way more fun with Blunami!

Until I can do ALL the CAB2 functions on the CAB3 app,  no.    I still must use my CAB2 to run my postwar/conventional engines.

If anything this thing gave me more appreciation for the good engineering that went into TMCC and early Legacy. All I really wanted to do was turn off those godawful creaking and groaning sounds in the new stuff and maybe get the correct whistle once in a while. Instead, they decided to give you an app (WOW an app OMG!!) to gloss over how stale they let Legacy get over the years.

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

For me it was not worth it. In fact, it's a total boat anchor at this point and Lionel really screwed this up badly. The day I crashed my nice 3rd Rail M1b into the side of a moving boxcar was the day I disconnected it. I think it was a huge mistake for them to cram the Lionchief  stuff into the works. The app is awful, overcrowded and unintuitive. I can't believe Lionel made something that made my layout actually run worse. I've never hooked up a piece of Lionel TMCC/Legacy hardware and had that happen! They would have done well to study the good works of TMCC and Legacy before they attempted this. Simplicity made that stuff great. I had high hopes for this system and thought it could future-proof my layout since they didn't want to update Legacy properly but right now I am absolutely unimpressed. In any case I am having way more fun with Blunami!

That's awful!  Sorry that happened with your M1b.  Were you using the app to control things or one of the remotes?  I've run into issues controlling things with the app so that's another reason I'm using a CAB-1L pretty much all the time with this system.  One of the things I didn't like with the app was the "emergency stop" button doesn't work whereas it functions fine on my remote.

At this time I only have one BluNami controlleed engine and I LOVE it!  I only wish the BluNami could trick my Base 3 into thinking it was a Lionel engine so I could control it through my CAB-1L.  As much of an improvement the BluNami app is to control over the CAB-3, I still like to do everything from one remote if I can help it.  That'd be a slick feature if BluNami could work with other control systems.  The speed control on the BluNami is probably one of the best I've seen!

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

If anything this thing gave me more appreciation for the good engineering that went into TMCC and early Legacy. All I really wanted to do was turn off those godawful creaking and groaning sounds in the new stuff and maybe get the correct whistle once in a while. Instead, they decided to give you an app (WOW an app OMG!!) to gloss over how stale they let Legacy get over the years.

You hit the nail on the head with the background sounds.  It's not even so much that they included background sounds, but they're all the same for every engine, be it diesel or steam!

I’ve been very happy with the Base 3. I started my layout at the time Lionel had discontinued the Cab 2, and as we know, it became impossible to purchase one at a reasonable price. I ran my Legacy and LC+2.0 engines with the universal remote or LC app. With that being said, it’s been a pleasure working with the Base/Cab 3 even though the app isn’t fully functional (yet).

Gene

@VHubbard posted:

Until I can do ALL the CAB2 functions on the CAB3 app,  no.    I still must use my CAB2 to run my postwar/conventional engines.

I've never used the Base/Cab2 before.  What functions can you access with the Cab2 that aren't available on the Cab3 App?

The major intent of the BASE3 and CAB3 Combo was to replace the no-longer-manufactured CAB2 (#991) and its #992 Legacy Base.

While the BASE3 can be used as a reasonable functional substitute for the #992 Legacy Base, the CAB2 handheld still provides the most reliable train control.

IMHO, there remain too many issues with the BASE3 Tab on the CAB3 app (as reported in multiple OGR Forum Threads) to recommend the upgrade if you already own the CAB2 and its Legacy base. 

Hopefully, Lionel will continue to invest in the necessary software programming to make the CAB3 app work as well or better than the CAB2 some day.

No plans to upgrade.  My 990's Base2 is still going strong as is its CAB2, and I bought a 993 CAB2 as a spare.  I love the CAB2 and I'm trying to get *less* apps in my life, not more.  So between my working Legacy hardware and new stuff like Blunami and Dave's amazing Python Legacy control code as well as the feedback from early adopters, I see zero reasons to move to a Base3, now or in the future.  Just my $0.02.

@Bruce Brown posted:

The major intent of the BASE3 and CAB3 Combo was to replace the no-longer-manufactured CAB2 (#991) and its #992 Legacy Base.

While the BASE3 can be used as a reasonable functional substitute for the #992 Legacy Base, the CAB2 handheld still provides the most reliable train control.

IMHO, there remain too many issues with the BASE3 Tab on the CAB3 app (as reported in multiple OGR Forum Threads) to recommend the upgrade if you already own the CAB2 and its Legacy base.

Hopefully, Lionel will continue to invest in the necessary software programming to make the CAB3 app work as well or better than the CAB2 some day.

A common theme I've observed is folks that love the Base 3 don't have the Base/CAB 2.  Unsurprisingly those that don't like the Base 3 already have a fully functioning Base/CAB 2.

Lionel is still making trains, picking up new customers, and chugging along.  So for folks already established in the hobby with the previous Legacy equipment it seems like there's been a step back from that.

But for newer operators that don't want to pay $990 for a 990 (or $992 for your 992), the Base 3 makes more sense on the surface.  Seems like any of the issues people have had with the Base 3 have mostly been with the CAB-3 App.  I see far fewer issues and complaints from operators using a CAB-1L or CAB-2 to control the Base 3.

@Dadified posted:

Seems like any of the issues people have had with the Base 3 have mostly been with the CAB-3 App.  I see far fewer issues and complaints from operators using a CAB-1L or CAB-2 to control the Base 3.

You are correct on this point.  The BASE3 has been pretty stable, and pretty much everything seems to work using the CAB1L or CAB2 with the BASE3.  I haven't tried the Lionchief stuff from the Legacy remote through the BASE3, but I'll get around to that someday.

@Dadified posted:

A common theme I've observed is folks that love the Base 3 don't have the Base/CAB 2.  Unsurprisingly those that don't like the Base 3 already have a fully functioning Base/CAB 2.

Be careful with assumptions based on what you read here.

I  personally know many people who had and have the 990 system, and have for years.  I am one of them.  I got my first TMCC set back in 1995.  Eventually added DCS when it came around.   Then replaced the basic TMCC with Legacy.

And now Base 3/App, and WTIU

I still have all my remotes from MTH and Lionel.

I have my layout wired and powered in such a way I can run my old conventional trains when I want.

Reality was that there wasn't going to be a practical and cost effective way to continue Legacy, so the Base 3 is the result.  While they were doing it, they made the decision to integrate LionChief into the system.  That makes sense I think given that LionChief is the introduction to Lionel in the current marketplace.  The new battery powered sets will also be accessible through the Base 3 according to Ryan Kunkle. 

What this did however, is increase complexity strikingly and create high expectations for the first iteration of the app.  This has failed some folks with sophisticated needs although it works for most basic functions from what I hear.  So time and evolution will address the needs of the 99% of the folks who just need something that works like Legacy/TMCC with a few extra features.  Turns out that introducing the Base 3 and Cab 3 app into existing layouts has teething problems for many.  That's the price of progress I suppose, and change.

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah

You're an angry little man.

It's fine you don't like it,  but to go the lengths you do to disparage a product or company with the consistent, uncivil discourse is odd.  Very muck like when you called out the YouTube creators who are a part of this forum.

You stated your displeasure.  Fine.   You then doubled down with the 'This Is Crap' video.

@Dadified posted:

A common theme I've observed is folks that love the Base 3 don't have the Base/CAB 2.  Unsurprisingly those that don't like the Base 3 already have a fully functioning Base/CAB 2.

Well, your question was, "is it worth the upgrade?"

It's not an upgrade if you don't have a control system to begin with.  It is if you've got Base2 / CAB2 or CAB-1L.

I haven't heard anyone say that they love the Base3 app so much they're selling off their CAB2s -- quite the opposite.  That's probably the most important data point IMHO.

@EscapeRocks posted:

You're an angry little man.

It's fine you don't like it,  but to go the lengths you do to disparage a product or company with the consistent, uncivil discourse is odd.  Very muck like when you called out the YouTube creators who are a part of this forum.

You stated your displeasure.  Fine.   You then doubled down with the 'This Is Crap' video.

Try decaf.

@EscapeRocks posted:

You're an angry little man.

It's fine you don't like it,  but to go the lengths you do to disparage a product or company with the consistent, uncivil discourse is odd.  Very muck like when you called out the YouTube creators who are a part of this forum.

You stated your displeasure.  Fine.   You then doubled down with the 'This Is Crap' video.

The thing is, everything he has said is correct.

Frankly, though there are some nice guys at Lionel, I don't think they are short either the engineering acumen or manpower to make something as capable as the original TMCC or Legacy bases.

The CAB3 app wasn't good from day one. It's like they tried to cram the entire CAB2 interface into one screen using the look and feel of the iCab app. Swiping to change screens is absolutely horrible as it's way too easy to accidentally tap a function while trying to swipe. I know they added a screen change button but how do you mess up the most basic feature of smart devices like swiping?

The CAB3 needs a serious overhaul before I'd consider it for mainstream use on my layout. Ditch the slider controls, it's too hard to make single speedstep & precise movements or at least add a plus and minus button to make for precision control. Redesign the entire interface to make functions more intuitive so we don't have to play the guessing game of what an icon means by trial and error.

If you don't have a cab2, and upgrading from an original TMCC system, you're not getting much. The MSRP for the Base3 and cab1L is over $750 and you can't do much more than the original cab1 other than get a partial quilling whistle and a way to run Lionchief stuff that doesn't have TMCC with a cab1L.

At this point it’s just a very expensive Base 2 replacement. I was looking forward to what they could do with the app until I got it. I was hoping their approach to the app would be as creative as the original TMCC and early Legacy products but it just tuned into a poorly performing CAB-2 emulator. They just tried to cram too much into it imo. Maybe if they made a Legacy only app it might be worth putzing with again. For now the Base 3 is just laying around under my layout doing nothing.

My TMCC/Cab1 was sitting under my layout doing nothing for a few weeks after I got the Base 3 going.  Then I donated it to my local club and now there's two layouts that have command control there.  There's all gauges represented at the clubhouse here, a few tables of N-Scale, S Gauge, G scale, HO of course, and three O-Gauge but only one of em had command control on it.  Thought it'd be nice to get a second one going!

Kids like to use the Lionchief on this one, but it was nice to finally get my Legacy Challenger going along with them.  It's a neat layout and I find myself gravitating towards it every time we visit.  I think it's the elevation changes that I like most.

For those who have had issues with the Base 3, I'd say give it a shot with one of the remotes.  I am sort of bummed that there's issues to fix with the app after such a lengthy wait, but I'm hoping they get it sorted out.  I think the Base 3 successfully covering all of the control types is possible.  Much like how TMCC and Legacy control revolutionized a lot of control system stuff before, the plan for Base 3 was ambitious.  Just needs more time and troubleshooting.