What's your preference Z4000 or ZW-L?

Hi both transformers are good but ZWL is over $800.00 now I believe MTH Z4000 is a little over $500 to 560.00! the ZWL has a higher wattage rating then MTH but Lionel does not always have parts anymore!

Alan

I like both and use both.

I haven't run trains since 2010. At that time, I was using three Z-4000 transformers from MTH. Everything worked fine.

Both are good, but if you are using the Lionel Legacy control system, the ZW-L has a distinct advantage in that you can program the 4 power channels on the ZW-L as either Engines 1-4 or Trains 1-4 and control each power channel individually with your CAB2 (or CAB1L or CAB1 if TMCC connected to your Legacy base).  You can then run conventional trains (including MTH if you don't have DCS) with your CAB2, and another advantage is that if you get a short from a derailment, you can reset the ZW-L without touching it, using the CAB2.  Also, with the ZW-L, if you have a derailment and short, only the one channel shuts off and you can see from a glance at the meters which channel shorted.

If you are not using Legacy, and have no plans to in the future, go with the Z4000 and save the $$$.

Andy

I personally like and use the Z4000 over a ZWL. I have a friend who has a ZWL so I've put hands on both transformers and performed various operations. While there is a time and place for analog gauges, and they can be useful and look cool retro, the fact for me was that the tiny ZWL gauges I find hard to read and further, I just didn't find them all that useful. Contrast that with the bright digital LEDs of the Z4000, and it being extremely useful at troubleshooting current draw and voltage of a given engine or piece of equipment. I know the relative health of any engine or train I am running. I also have a fair amount of MTH engines, some being PS1. The Z4000 and the programming feature makes using a PS1 engine that much better. I would say easily (since I do repairs as well) I use the full features and programming function at least twice a week.

It's kind of an interesting situation also as a tech. I can get parts for the MTH Z4000 today, specifically both control board sets, where for a Lionel, I can get almost nothing if it needs repaired. I'm also not trying to say they need repaired often or have problems. Sure it's possible to damage nearly any electronic device. I'm just saying if you did need a repair, it's not under warranty or even if it is-can it be repaired?

I also did extensive testing of the Z4000, under various loads and posted that info. There is what looks like internal resistance so under load, the voltage does drop (from your setpoint) the Z4000. It's designed with enough range and max voltage, for the typical layout even at max load, I'm in spec for wattage easily achieving real 17-18V output at well into 11-12 Amps. Again, yes, if you set the handle exactly at 18V displayed but no load, and then load it, there is voltage drop and the harder the load the more voltage drop. I will agree, this is not ideal in what most people think of a train power source (some people instantly condemn it for this).

Again, I've put hands on the ZWL. While it tries to copy the basic layout and design of the original postwar ZW, it is physically larger. I don't care for the bell and whistle function buttons- again they attempted to keep that feel of the old school ZW, but it's just not my thing. Also, I find the bell and whistle buttons and really Lionel's firmware which very much works the DC offsets like other lower transformer models (CW80) is not the greatest for controlling an MTH engine using bell and whistle commands.

The bottom line, while I know MTH prices rose on the Z4000, the used market still exists. You can buy 2 used MTH Z4000s for roughly the street price of one ZWL.

Also, again, sadly, prices are a point in time. Most of my Z4000s were bought between 2018 and 2022 (I have 4, the local club also has 4) and I paid less than $300 each, in some cases as low as $200. This new pricing is just out of control IMO.

Again, buy whatever you want and parts is always kind of a moving target. It just happens that after a long time of them being out of stock and not available, MTH imported control boards when they made the last batch of Z4000.

Today- a search for Z4000 at MTH parts, and a fair bit I can get, especially the 2 main control boards. (note, cannot direct link a search so you have to put in that search criteria Z4000).

https://www.mthpartsandsales.com/shop/search/results

A search for Lionel ZW-L, the listings are there, but very little I can order and definitely not the boards https://www.lionelsupport.com/ZW-L-Transformers

z4000, I run only MTH.

I've owned 2 Z-4000s in the past and they were nice.

But right now, the answer is neither.  Since I run TMCC, I tend to favor Power House 180 & 135 "bricks".  That way I don't have to fiddle with the handles of the Z4000 every time I flip the power strip (connects everything) ON/OFF.

That's my transformer cart below.  Each of the 8 districts has its own "brick".  Yeah, it is overkill. 

The cost of the ZW-C seems a bit extreme.

Electricity is electricity.  It isn't Purple or Orange flavored, if you know what I mean. 

I'm guessing there even more reasonably priced and equivalent electrical transformers available commercially that would do the same job as these 2 products.  I haven't researched it, but it might be an option.

George

@G3750 posted:

The cost of the ZW-C seems a bit extreme.

Hopefully you meant ZW-L

ZW-C- let's not go down that path in the mix. If you have one, fine, use it until you can't, but for a new build, really hard for me to recommend buying one (the older ZW-C) for a newer layout. Again, a ZW-C is a dead end path (key parts are NLA), at best use the 180 powerhouses when the ZW-C dies.

@G3750 posted:

I'm guessing there even more reasonably priced and equivalent electrical transformers available commercially that would do the same job as these 2 products.  I haven't researched it, but it might be an option.

No, variable voltage hobby transformers with AC output, but even more so, UL listed is just not some huge market. There are not a lot of use cases- even in scientific and industrial for this scenario, and thus why there are not other bulk or commodity sources as being implied.

Being the world has gone digital- DC power supplies, sure we can find a bunch of those. Line powered AC variable output with 100% isolation from the line side, not so much. And let me add- for this hobby and the typical mixed older and modern equipment scenario- you don't want to power your track with DC. I know this comes up from time to time can I power X with DC, but for a bunch of reasons, there is a whole lot of Lionel equipment that can be damaged with a DC track power source.

As suggested, a lot depends on what equipment you own or will own. If you have PS1 locos and/or only/mostly MTH locos, the Z4000 might be more attractive. If you have TMCC/Legacy as your primary control system and only/mostly Lionel equipment, the ZW-L might be more attractive.

The cost difference for new purchases reflects a similar approximate cost per watt (about $1.61 for the ZW-L; $1.63 for the Z4000 at MSRP),   so that's not a big factor to my thinking.  $650 for the Z4000 at 400 watts vs. $1,000 for the ZW-L at 620 watts.  Street prices vary, but in general you can get a slightly bigger discount on ZW-Ls than Z4000s, not that this makes much of a difference.

Currently you cannot buy a remote/receiver for the Z4000 which has remote capability and the ZW-L has built in remote capability and responds to the cab-1L.  Matters to some folks.  Some people like Vernon prefer the digital display of the Z4000.  Some folks don't need the additional wattage available through the ZW-L, etc.

As for the future, some might think the future availability of service/parts from Lionel appears more promising than for MTH, whose future is a bit more uncertain due to the age of the sole proprietor(s) and the size of the company.  The future is not readily predictable .

@Vernon Barry posted:

Hopefully you meant ZW-L

ZW-C- let's not go down that path in the mix. If you have one, fine, use it until you can't, but for a new build, really hard for me to recommend buying one (the older ZW-C) for a newer layout. Again, a ZW-C is a dead end path (key parts are NLA), at best use the 180 powerhouses when the ZW-C dies.

No, variable voltage hobby transformers with AC output, but even more so, UL listed is just not some huge market. There are not a lot of use cases- even in scientific and industrial for this scenario, and thus why there are not other bulk or commodity sources as being implied.

Being the world has gone digital- DC power supplies, sure we can find a bunch of those. Line powered AC variable output with 100% isolation from the line side, not so much. And let me add- for this hobby and the typical mixed older and modern equipment scenario- you don't want to power your track with DC. I know this comes up from time to time can I power X with DC, but for a bunch of reasons, there is a whole lot of Lionel equipment that can be damaged with a DC track power source.

I did mean ZW-L.

George

ZW-L

@Landsteiner posted:

As suggested, a lot depends on what equipment you own or will own. If you have PS1 locos and/or only/mostly MTH locos, the Z4000 might be more attractive. If you have TMCC/Legacy as your primary control system and only/mostly Lionel equipment, the ZW-L might be more attractive.

The cost difference for new purchases reflects a similar approximate cost per watt (about $1.61 for the ZW-L; $1.63 for the Z4000 at MSRP),   so that's not a big factor to my thinking.  $650 for the Z4000 at 400 watts vs. $1,000 for the ZW-L at 620 watts.  Street prices vary, but in general you can get a slightly bigger discount on ZW-Ls than Z4000s, not that this makes much of a difference.

Currently you cannot buy a remote/receiver for the Z4000 which has remote capability and the ZW-L has built in remote capability and responds to the cab-1L.  Matters to some folks.  Some people like Vernon prefer the digital display of the Z4000.  Some folks don't need the additional wattage available through the ZW-L, etc.

As for the future, some might think the future availability of service/parts from Lionel appears more promising than for MTH, whose future is a bit more uncertain due to the age of the sole proprietor(s) and the size of the company.  The future is not readily predictable .

A very good summary of the situation.

FWIW, during a recent sale by a forum sponsor I picked up a ZW-L delivered for $760.  Still a bit more than a Z-4000, but a lot better than the current regular price. 

Once again, what and how you run makes a huge difference. Both are great transformers.

I have both. I own the ZW-L for a couple years, but I had the Z4K since the late 98. And had no issues. Hard to believe its turning 25.  I can say I like both but they have their own advantages. Prices, power, control, parts, etc. I like the digital gauges of the z4k over the analog on the ZW-L. I see it if your more of a lionel guy the ZW-L would be better, especially if you are in tmcc or legacy. But you have MTH models especially PS1 models the z4k has the buttons to reset and or program the locomotives. Its all give and take.

I was goaded into buying a brand new ZWL by a friend at the first York meet right after Covid. He convinced me that it is supposedly a great transformer and priced at the time for 500 dollars I would be foolish not to buy it.

I at the time (and still am) was/is running a 1998 Z4000 and figured it could go bad at anytime.

The ZWL is never been out of the box as of yet.

Neither, a KW and an AF 19-B.

@taycotrains posted:

I was goaded into buying a brand new ZWL by a friend at the first York meet right after Covid. He convinced me that it is supposedly a great transformer and priced at the time for 500 dollars I would be foolish not to buy it.

I at the time (and still am) was/is running a 1998 Z4000 and figured it could go bad at anytime.

The ZWL is never been out of the box as of yet.

At $500 it was a good investment!

I had a Z4000 and it worked fine. Then, I went to four separate power districts....two mains, an engine yard, two subway loops and used the ZWL. Now, I am back to just two power districts, but I stayed with my ZWL and have the Z4000 if I ever need back up.

Both are great and recommend both......we use two Z4000's on the modular layout.

I use a refurbished Z or ZW for accessories.

Peter