Where can I find K-Line 3790-4015S Big Boy Parts (Smoke Unit Parts, Screws)

Just did some more looking. Would it possibly be K3790-X033 or K3790-X033A for the smoke resistor?

@dkdkrd posted:

I thought I read somewhere that Brasseur's (Saginaw, MI) bought out the remnants of K-Line parts inventory?

KD

That was the site I linked actually

Its most likely a common 27 ohm wire wound resistor. Lionel has them. As for the cap you won't find it from Lionel or K-Line. There are hundreds that would work. Some electrolytic with at least a 15volt rating and small enough to fit. Capacitive value not all that critical. K-Line only offered a handful of engines with fan smoke. Someone would have to check theirs to determine an exact match.

Pete

Pete, revise that voltage specification upward!  The peak voltage on that cap, even with half-wave power, will exceed 15 volts.  The caps in the Lionel smoke units are rated at 35V, that's a safer number.  A 100uf 35V cap is pennies, and will be suitable for that smoke unit.

I assume the smoke unit is driven off the R2LC, not track power. I didn't see a regulator on the board but if there is one the cap would only need to be around 6.3v. 

Pete

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Pete, revise that voltage specification upward!  The peak voltage on that cap, even with half-wave power, will exceed 15 volts.  The caps in the Lionel smoke units are rated at 35V, that's a safer number.  A 100uf 35V cap is pennies, and will be suitable for that smoke unit.

So would this work for the cap?

https://www.radioshack.com/pro...ectrolytic-capacitor

I doubt it would fit easily.

Pete

I should also mention I’m missing the screws for the smoke until in addition to the body screws that I already mentioned. Anyone know where I can find those or ones that will fit?

And as far as a capacitor goes, I don’t know a whole lot about them. Should I measure the hole spacing to find the correct size one?

@Norton posted:

I assume the smoke unit is driven off the R2LC, not track power. I didn't see a regulator on the board but if there is one the cap would only need to be around 6.3v.

Pete, the R2LC smoke output puts out half-wave track power in command mode and full-wave track power in conventional mode. Since there is a diode, it would all end up being half-wave. Half-wave 18VAC peaks at 12.7 volts, so the cap will charge up to the peaks. As I said, the Lionel smoke unit with the same arrangement has a 35V cap.  The cap comes BEFORE the regulator, so it sees the full voltage.  There is a regulator, it's missing as well. 

I've never seen any of these smoke units run the fan on unregulated power, that arrangement would put 11-12 VDC on the motor, that would make quick work of that motor!  I think we need to see better pictures.  If they are feeding this with some other source of power, I can't imagine what the diode and cap are doing there.  Here's a view of the bottom of a K-Line smoke unit, note the regulator.

@jaketrainz posted:

And as far as a capacitor goes, I don’t know a whole lot about them. Should I measure the hole spacing to find the correct size one?

Measure the space between the leads and then the diameter available between the connectors to install the cap.  Find a 35V 100uf cap that fits, there should be tons of them.

Here's a suitable cap, pretty sure the lead spacing is .1".  Kemet ESH107M035AE3AA.  Pretty sure you'll also need the regulator if it's not there.  TI LM78L05ACZ/NOPB.

John, since you have a K-Line fan smoke unit why didn't you post the picture in the first place instead of letting folks make guesses on what the poster has?

Save me from your condescending assumptions. A 3.3 volt motor will burn up with 12 volts applied, really? Save that crap for your fan club.

Pete

Pete, I found the picture on the web, I don't have one in hand or I'd have posted the picture sooner.

I'd burn up a motor for you, but I don't have any of them I want to sacrifice.  Have you ever heard one of the smoke fan motors running on higher voltage?  It's pretty loud, and I'm sure it won't last very long that way.

Not entirely sure why you're getting so worked up.

I will post a better picture of the board shortly. I will also include a top shot. Didn’t know a regulator was missing so I’m glad that was caught

Here are some (hopefully) better pictures

I’m also not seeing where a regulator would go although looking back at my original post, the wires were covering another element on the board so that may be it

You're not seeing where a regulator "might" go because there's already one on the board!  We couldn't see it with the other photo, look again at the board.  The black component with three leads is the regulator!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

You're not seeing where a regulator "might" go because there's already one on the board!  We couldn't see it with the other photo, look again at the board.  The black component with three leads is the regulator!

I thought that might be it! Alright, so it looks like I need a resistor and a capacitor. Anyone know what size screws are used for the smoke unit?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

They're metric screws, 3mm and 6mm long if they right into the PCB, 8 or 9 mm long if they are holding a smoke funnel.

What’s the best place to source the screws? I have an assortment of random train screws, none of which fit. A google search for 3,6,8,or 9mm screws gives me wood screws and others that are far too big. Is there something more specific I should search? Also, what size screws for the body? Then I’ll have everything I need.

McMaster Carr has a vast assortment of screws in metric and SAW sizes.  Round Head Screws at McMaster Carr.

Smoke Unit Screws.

If you're going to be doing a lot of this work, these are very useful tools to have in the toolkit

Screw Size Checker

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

They're metric screws, 3mm and 6mm long if they right into the PCB, 8 or 9 mm long if they are holding a smoke funnel.

I ordered the specified screws and unfortunately they did not fit. I actually ordered 3 different sizes just in case and none of those fit either. I don't happen to have any of the original screws any more for reference. I called someone as Brasseur Electric Trains (traindoctor.com) and they did not know what the screws were either. I was told the service manuals were likely destroyed by Lionel! I still also need body screws. It was either 5 or 7 of them. If anyone out there happens to know what size screws I need for everything, please let me know. Thanks!

The body screws are very likely #6-32 size by about 1/2" long. Thats what K-Line used for most body mount screws that I have delt with.

Also the smoke unit body screws may be #4-40 but I wouldn't want to guarantee that. I have never worked on one of those smoke units.

If you take the body shell and the smoke unit to your local Ace hardware, Lowes, Home Depot whatever, you should be able to match up the sizes and then you will at least know what sizes you need.

Rod

I just had a K-Line smoke unit apart, the screws in it were 4-40 screws.  Lionel also used them in a lot of the TMCC smoke units.  The body screws are like Rod says, 6-32.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I just had a K-Line smoke unit apart, the screws in it were 4-40 screws.  Lionel also used them in a lot of the TMCC smoke units.  The body screws are like Rod says, 6-32.

Excellent. Would you happen to know how long for the smoke unit screws? Would 1/2 inch fit or should i get 1/4 inch?

Go for 3/8" if it's just the PCB, 1/2" if it's also holding down a stack extension.  Also, sometimes it's useful to have longer screws.  I just worked on a Lionel Challenger, and half the smoke unit screws were stripped in the pot metal bowl!  Since it looked like it was never opened, I suspect it happened at the factory, runaway power tools.  I just used some longer 4-40 screws to engage the remaining threads and all was well. 

This is also why I use screwdrivers with a 1/2" handle for most of the work, makes it harder to get carried away and strip screws.  I've lost count of all the plastic shells I've repaired when people either strip the screws or twist the mounting posts off!  It's plastic people, you don't need 100 ft/lb of torque to put them back on!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Go for 3/8" if it's just the PCB, 1/2" if it's also holding down a stack extension.  Also, sometimes it's useful to have longer screws.  I just worked on a Lionel Challenger, and half the smoke unit screws were stripped in the pot metal bowl!  Since it looked like it was never opened, I suspect it happened at the factory, runaway power tools.  I just used some longer 4-40 screws to engage the remaining threads and all was well. 

This is also why I use screwdrivers with a 1/2" handle for most of the work, makes it harder to get carried away and strip screws.  I've lost count of all the plastic shells I've repaired when people either strip the screws or twist the mounting posts off!  It's plastic people, you don't need 100 ft/lb of torque to put them back on!

So I ordered what I believe to be a smoke funnel but it turns out it was just the small brass ring like thing at the hole if the smoke unit which I already have. I’m in need of the funnel that funneled the smoke and fluid to and from the dual stacks of the big boy to the single hole of the smoke unit. I’ve looked everywhere and can’t seem to find it. Is there a substitute that would work or does anyone know where I can find this piece. If I’ve learned anything from this repair, it’s don’t lose parts, especially K-Line parts, at just about any cost. I’m very close to having this engine fully functional once again and I’m looking forward to it. Any help is appreciated

You may have to break out the soldering iron and make one from brass tubing and brass sheet.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

You may have to break out the soldering iron and make one from brass tubing and brass sheet.

I think I found something that may work. Lionel’s American Flyer Big Boy uses a smoke funnel that looks nearly identical to the old one. I’ve even heard the A/F big boy used the same exact k-line tooling. I purchased the part directly from Lionel and I will see if it fits. Worst case scenario, I will make something

Ok, well I finally got everything in the mail and soldered everything together, added a new wick, added smoke fluid, screwed the unit together and plugged it in. Then turned the smoke switch on the engine to on. The fan sounds horrible, making a high pitch screeching noise, and when in neutral turns on and off every few seconds. I’m also getting either very little smoke, or no smoke at all. At this point, I’m done with trying to fix the existing smoke unit, and would rather cut my losses and add a new one. I’m looking at a Lionel unit (see picture) for $35 with a 3 pin connector that appears the closely match the K-Line unit. Is the 3 pin connector the same as the K-Line and can I simply just plug it in or is the pin out different?

Jake, all you need is a motor, much cheaper than the smoke unit.  Also, the smoke unit turning on and off won't be fixed by a new smoke unit, that's a function of the R2LC.  Did you program it for a steamer with smoke?

In the course of normal operation, static electricity or an electrical “spike” can cause a loss of function. Following the procedure outlined below will restore functions.

STEP 1: Move switch on locomotive from run to program.
STEP 2: Turn on Command Base.
STEP 3: Place locomotive on track, then turn on power to track.
STEP 4: Press “ENG” then input locomotive ID ##. Press “SET”.
STEP 5: Press ”ENG” then input locomotive ID ## again.
STEP 6: Press AUX1, then input the reprogramming code 4
STEP 7: Turn off power to track, wait ten seconds.
STEP 8: Remove locomotive from track, move switch from program to run.
STEP 9: Place locomotive back on track. Turn power on to track.
STEP 10: Press “ENG” and ID#, then operate as normal.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Jake, all you need is a motor, much cheaper than the smoke unit.  Also, the smoke unit turning on and off won't be fixed by a new smoke unit, that's a function of the R2LC.  Did you program it for a steamer with smoke?

In the course of normal operation, static electricity or an electrical “spike” can cause a loss of function. Following the procedure outlined below will restore functions.

STEP 1: Move switch on locomotive from run to program.
STEP 2: Turn on Command Base.
STEP 3: Place locomotive on track, then turn on power to track.
STEP 4: Press “ENG” then input locomotive ID ##. Press “SET”.
STEP 5: Press ”ENG” then input locomotive ID ## again.
STEP 6: Press AUX1, then input the reprogramming code 4
STEP 7: Turn off power to track, wait ten seconds.
STEP 8: Remove locomotive from track, move switch from program to run.
STEP 9: Place locomotive back on track. Turn power on to track.
STEP 10: Press “ENG” and ID#, then operate as normal.

I don’t have a CAB-1 remote. I have a TMCC command base but use MTH’s DCS to operate my TMCC engines. Could I do that on the DCS remote?

Also, this was happening when I was running in conventional mode.

And finally, would the fan for that smoke unit I just showed work as a replacement?

Brasseur train repair has the biggest inventory of K-line parts. https://traindoctor.com/service/service.asp

They have pages of K-line parts, I just ordered from them and they are very helpful and easy to work with. Don

Since he doesn't know what he really needs yet Don, it's premature to order anything.

Jake, the one thing that the DCS doesn't emulate is the SET button, there is no corresponding button for SET.  If you go to add a TMCC engine, it does send out a simulated SET for the TMCC ID change, but it doesn't know to do it for the locomotive type.

Find someone with TMCC or Legacy and get it programmed correctly.  You can get a smoke motor for a few bucks to fix the noisy motor.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Jake, all you need is a motor, much cheaper than the smoke unit.  Also, the smoke unit turning on and off won't be fixed by a new smoke unit, that's a function of the R2LC.  Did you program it for a steamer with smoke?

In the course of normal operation, static electricity or an electrical “spike” can cause a loss of function. Following the procedure outlined below will restore functions.

STEP 1: Move switch on locomotive from run to program.
STEP 2: Turn on Command Base.
STEP 3: Place locomotive on track, then turn on power to track.
STEP 4: Press “ENG” then input locomotive ID ##. Press “SET”.
STEP 5: Press ”ENG” then input locomotive ID ## again.
STEP 6: Press AUX1, then input the reprogramming code 4
STEP 7: Turn off power to track, wait ten seconds.
STEP 8: Remove locomotive from track, move switch from program to run.
STEP 9: Place locomotive back on track. Turn power on to track.
STEP 10: Press “ENG” and ID#, then operate as normal.

Well, it’s been a few months. Engine runs just fine in TMCC and conventional except for the fact that the smoke still “pulses” in neutral in conventional mode. I now have a CAB-1 remote and programmed it to “4” for a steamer with smoke. I ended up just installing a plug and play Lionel smoke unit. I know I might not of needed to, but my less than perfect soldering skills at the time (I’ve brushed up since then), they must’ve bled over each other and I had smoke coming from the resistor. At that point, I didn’t feel comfortable trying to fix it any longer and just went the “easy” route with a new smoke unit. Still working on fabricating a funnel, but with the construction of my new layout, it’s on the back burner for now. Any fix for the “pulsing” smoke in neutral in conventional?

All versions of the R2LC pulse the smoke in neutral to avoid burning up conventional smoke units.  Apparently, Lionel never thought anyone would want smoke when they weren't running.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

All versions of the R2LC pulse the smoke in neutral to avoid burning up conventional smoke units.  Apparently, Lionel never thought anyone would want smoke when they weren't running.

Odd but makes sense. I normally only run in command mode anyway, but thought something was wrong with my engine. Glad to know it’s a “feature”.

I guess this is the model train equivalent of, “Its not a bug, it’s a feature!”

I've run across this in the past when I worked on conventional stuff, kinda' annoying, but that's the nature of the beast.