Where F3's always back to back..?

Yes....nose to tail is called Elephant style.....and some roads, like SRR, ran this way most of the time. Both ways are correct.....vary by road.

The real ones...every once in a blue moon.  Lionel F3s?    Never!  You'd lose your automatic coupler on one end if  ya did it.   It's like running your LW on "B-U".....

it can be done, but should it be done.   But, hey it's your chooch!

I used to teach math and basic logic to fellow employees. If someone had asked me that question, I would have said:

"You can figure this out without asking anyone. Assuming that you're talking about three or more units, and are asking about IF it can be done, rather than WAS it ever done,...Take a piece of paper, and cut out three A units. Put them down on the table, and try to arrange them in a straight line without allowing the nose of any one to touch the tail of any other.  I'll bet that you can figure out the answer."

Early on, the real EMD F3 units did NOT have MU Connections in/on their bulldog noses, i.e. the "Cab End", thus the "A" units could NOT be connected and MUed together.

Arthur,

You could also put that same logic to work and come to the conclusion that the original poster is likely talking about a postwar set of F3's which usually consisted of only 2 A units and, occasionally, a B unit or two.

You all have it wrong. He's asking where they were always back to back.

It's a trick question.

Of course, after adding MU recepticals on the nose, they could indeed run "elephant style."

And yes, that is an F3, so is the 21, the following unit.  Shoppings are wonderful things...

Rusty

There is the infamous #21 (tin ATSF diesel made by Marx), or at least its prototype.

and to ask a similar question,

Did they ever put an A unit at the front of a train and another A unit at the end of the train, each facing in opposite directions?

Ed

In the mid to late 60's I used to travel by rail Jacksonville, FL to and from Raleigh, NC via SCL. They used E units where elephant style was standard. I don't ever recall a rear facing "E" A unit during any of my trips

Ed, 

this is done on moderen dinner trains.  dont recall any pictures of that done in the day

Did they ever put an A unit at the front of a train and another A unit at the end of the train, each facing in opposite directions?

Ed, the answer to your question is "yes". SEPTA ran a pull/pull train up the old Hellertown branch back in the early 1980s. I got stopped at the Hellertown crossing late one afternoon, and watched as an F7A(?), 5 coaches, and another F7A facing the other way went by on their way to Bethlehem. There are no turning facilities there, so all the engineer had to do was walk to the other end of the train. I presume the coaches had the flip over seat backs so the seats would be facing the correct direction for the return trip to Philadelphia. As far as I know, the engines were operated independently of each other, and only one at a time. I do not believe the coaches had MU connections to allow the units to operate together.

Chris

LVHR

Another F-3 question.  When did the F3's start appearing?  Were there any in the 1930's?

No, there were no F3s in the 1930s.  The F3 entered production after WW II.

The FT demonstrators were the first F units.  They debuted in 1939.

F3's were made post WWll, starting around 1947.

Jeff C

FTs are the only prewar, starting in 1940. Passenger E units - that's 1937.

NO

There are, or were, F units at Steamtown, Scranton, PA.  Both F3, (Bangor and Aroostook, Jersey Central, Lackawanna), and F7, (Reading), units.  Here are pictures from several years ago.

The earliest Lionel F3s had no centering springs for the blind end couplers, these were introduced when the A-B sets went into production in '54.  For some reason, the little Alcos in 027 always had a centering spring in the earlier version.   So...sure you can run 'em elephant style, but Ol' Josh would never approve....and you risk ripping a  hole in the space- time continuum ! ! !

A few corrections to my post above:

First, the units involved were Reading FP7s. The "P" indicates the car body was lengthened to accommodate a steam generator. Thank you Mike, for posting the picture of the FP7s at Steamtown.

Secondly, the train was indeed operated as a push/pull, with both units operating and supplying traction to the train.

The Reading installed a permanent MU cable on the roofs of these cars to allow control from either cab.

Thirdly, the date was the late 1970s to early 1980s. The train was taken out of service by 1983. Sadly, most of the rails north of Quakertown are now gone. Some of the roadbed has been converted with Rails to Trails.

Chris

LVHR

Rails to Trails is OK, because the right-of-way is preserved. With reference to Q-town, I believe passenger service will make it northward to Hellertown. Here is an old study, but indicative of the interest that IMO still exists, especially with Bucks County. At some point, our economy will recover enough for expansion of service; it has to, as we cannot keep building highways.

Running nose forward on all units is okay if the line has a means of turning an engine for the return trip.

Would there be any greater efficiency or power running them pull, pull rather than pull push?  There must be some reasoning (other than return trip) for a pull, pull combo?

Doesn't make any difference to a diesel engine or electric traction motors as to what direction. They will produce the same amount of power and traction effort. Sometimes engines are added to consists just to get them back to where they might be needed and are essentially "dead headed".

Certainly they can be run in any configuration, but they sure look a whole lot better operating back-to-back.

No...even today many trains are built with an east/west facing engine consist for the purpose of the return trip. They run a train out to a siding somewhere, swap ends, and return back to the yard/terminal. There is no horsepower or fuel consumption difference whether running the units forward or backwards.

A lot of those single F units were added to the head end as "extra" or "helper" power for a specific territory, or when an ABA or ABBA was broken up for major service to one of the units.

Al has it right. And Allan, I could not agree with you more as a modeler. The only way to run them for me is back to back, period. I think they look just plain silly elephant style.

I presume air resistance is too small a factor to matter?  Back to back probably has less air turbulence losses.

Turbulence has nothing to do with how the railroads MU'd their diesels.

As Hot Water mentioned ealier, the early F3's did not have MU connections on the nose.  This inflexibility was later corrected by many, if not all railroads using F-Units so an A unit could be face either direction or be anywhere in the MU consist.

Rusty