which transformer to buy Lionel or MTH ?

Your best bet I would say would be a MTH Z1000. Reasonable price and works great on pretty much any brand.  Also has a fast trip breaker to protect your electronics in the event of a derailment.  TrainWorld has them in stock. 

 

The most powerful ready-to-run train set transformer you can find, the Z-1000 boasts 100 watts of power, a U.L. approved design and separate 14v Accessory Ports. Its robust design will provide years of service and power enough to for any starter set to a moderate size layout. Available in many RailKing starter sets or separately, the Z-1000 is the perfect solution for a growing O Gauge layout.

Features - U.L. Approved
- 100 Watts Max Power Output
- Controller LED On Light
- Smooth Operating Throttle Knob
- Built-In Circuit Breaker Protection
- Individual Bell, Horn and Direction Buttons
- 14v Accessory Port
- 60Hz Operation Only - Unit Measures: - Operates On Curves

 

KKNAPPER

Where in NY are you located, If down State maybe you and your grandson can visit our club. See below

You cant go wrong with the MTH Z1000, I have a few on my home layout and they work very well. If you are looking at some of the Lionel Sets I can recommend the Pennys Flyer set. It comes with a transformer

Chris Lonero posted:

 

Your best bet I would say would be a MTH Z1000. Reasonable price and works great on pretty much any brand.  Also has a fast trip breaker to protect your electronics in the event of a derailment.  TrainWorld has them in stock. 

 

 

 

The most powerful ready-to-run train set transformer you can find, the Z-1000 boasts 100 watts of power, a U.L. approved design and separate 14v Accessory Ports. Its robust design will provide years of service and power enough to for any starter set to a moderate size layout. Available in many RailKing starter sets or separately, the Z-1000 is the perfect solution for a growing O Gauge layout.

Features - U.L. Approved
- 100 Watts Max Power Output
- Controller LED On Light
- Smooth Operating Throttle Knob
- Built-In Circuit Breaker Protection
- Individual Bell, Horn and Direction Buttons
- 14v Accessory Port
- 60Hz Operation Only - Unit Measures: - Operates On Curves

 

Thank you Chris and Steve. I had not heard of the MTH Z1000, so i will check it out. But if that would be enough power for both of our Trains on the track , it seems like the way to go. The Lionel Chief Plus came with a remote that controls all of the features. From what i have read , we would just turn on the transformer , put the power handle up and use the remotes for the rest. Can you add multiple Transformers for additional power if ever needed ? Again rookie question. I live in Upstate Steve in Ilion,NY ( near Utica). I see your on the Island.

I bought the GW-180 starting out and now it powers my entire Fastrack layout. Running 3 engines plus rolling stock / passenger cars at once is no issue at all. 

KKNAPPER posted:

Thank you Chris and Steve. I had not heard of the MTH Z1000, so i will check it out. But if that would be enough power for both of our Trains on the track , it seems like the way to go. The Lionel Chief Plus came with a remote that controls all of the features. From what i have read , we would just turn on the transformer , put the power handle up and use the remotes for the rest. Can you add multiple Transformers for additional power if ever needed ? Again rookie question. I live in Upstate Steve in Ilion,NY ( near Utica). I see your on the Island.

I can’t see any problem with running 2 engines on the same track if your using 2 lionchief locomotives. I have 4 Z1000’s running independent loops thru my command control TIU and that includes a Standard gauge line so I think you’ll be OK. 

Z-1000.  I am using 9 of them.  Very decent power.  Some are 14 years old.  

Get a z4000 

When using a Z-1000, will the locomotive speed up or slow down when using the horn or bell button?

When I use the whistle function on my ZW the loco speeds up.

If you were running other than Lionchief those transformers are great.  But if you are just running LC use a 72 watt DC power pack that Lionel sells just for Lionchief and Lienchief plus engines.   I use one on each main line of my 11x17 around the room layout.  Have ran 4 trains on one loop with one power pack.   And the DC power may double or triple the life of your LC and LC+ engines.  Add that they only cost 49.99 and you got a winner!  Plugs directly into Fastrack and you use your factory supplied remote!  The LC sets come with a 54 watt pack that will work on a smaller layout just fine. 

Jim   

To give you an idea of what can be run with a z-1000 brick:

This year on my under tree layout I ran, two trains (with smoke on), 6 lite cars (only two were LED), my 2 loops of Fastack had one command switch(on track power), one Operating/Uncouple Track Section(on track power), and a two small building lights(incandescent).

Since I just purchased the brick this fall I was just happy that it all ran. I don't try to push the limits of the Z1000. Also, I don't think I tried to fire the switch and the Uncoupler at the same time.

Since you seem to be budget conscious, MTH offers a Z1000A. This is what I purchased. It's the same transformer brick as the z1000, it was $25 cheaper. You just don't get the controller for running conventional trains, that you get with the Z1000.

 "I was thinking the Lionel GW-180 180 WATT."

If you buy the Lionel Powerhouse 180 ( I am assuming that is what you meant) it doesn't come with a controller either.  I don't think the new GW180 is available yet, which does come with a controller unit. It has a MSRP of $279.99 in the Lionel 2019 Catalogue.

I do understand from other Forum members that the Powerhouse 180 does have a faster circuit breaker. There  are plenty of threads here on that subject that you can read.

Mark W

Please note what the Lionchief sets come with.   54 watt DC power packs.   And check out the power pack supplied with the Polar Express trolley set!    It is DC also with adjustable voltage output!!   Everything in a LC, LC+, and LC+2.0 is DC.    So if you run any AC transformer you are converting wall power to 18volts AC, to send through a track, into the train to be changed to DC via the bridge rectifier .   Then to be cleaned up via the capacitor.   Only to power DC electronics and motor.      

Then consider the wall pack.   That changed wall power to 18v DC, through the track to the engine that now doesn't have to change anything.   Just run on the DC provided.  While your saving 450.00  Notice there isn't a CW 40 or CW80 in the catalog this year? 

Jim 

Good thing you're a newbie with a simple question. Welcome. You could get a Chevy or a Ford or a Plymouth. Or a Honda or a Camry. Or a Hyundai or a Subaru.

Lots of choices and lots of opinions. Try to figure out what you will need in WATTS. So many engines, so many lighted cars, so many accessories. Then get something that exceeds your requirements by a reasonable amount. It doesn't have to be 400 watts or more. But do get a new model power supply with a fast acting circuit breaker to protect the electronics in your engines. If you are just going to run Lionchief engines, you might save some bucks by just getting a brick (power supply) such as a Lionel 180 or 135 brick. They will supply a constant 18 volts and your remote will  control the engine.

Gerry 

Welcome to the Forum
Tons of great folks ready to help.
I have a CW-80 and I can say without a doubt- DON'T GET ONE OF THESE!  I only use it for my Christmas layout and for bench power but it has been nothing but trouble for me.

I'm planning on picking up a Z-1000 this year. If all of your trains are new and have remotes then the brick power supply is all you need. But if you happen to pick up some older conventional engines then you will need the throttle control.
Bob

PS- The D&H is one of my favorite lines. Love the colors on the locos.

I have several Z1000 bricks powering my layout. No complaints on my end!

Over the years I have purchased many ready to run sets, most with CW-80s and all have worked well. I use several at once plus a ZW.

But if you only want one transformer for the whole layout, get a Z-1000.

Charlie Nassau has it for under a $ 100.

A Lionel Transformer will give your layout / train room “The Wow Factor”

It is the focal point and visitors to your train room will recognize company name: LIONEL, even non train visitors.

The first photo is from Trainworld / Trainland Web Store an OGR Sponsor and you can find a link to them, in the OGR Banner. Lionel maybe phasing this 6-14198 out. You may want to purchase 2 of these at $124,99

The second photo is how it looks in my train room. Lionel 6-14198 next to an older Lionel ZW-L.

Hope this helps: Gary

MTH Z4000 - runs everything!

Two Lionel LionChief or LionChief-Plus trains? An MTH Z1000 will serve your needs quite well, with ample power for some operating accessories as well. My advice would be to avoid the Lionel CW-80. If you guys really get into the hobby and decide to expand, consider an MTH Z4000 or a Lionel ZW.

In answer to a question back near the top, yes you can use multiple Z-1000's on a layout, BUT whenever two or more transformers are on the same layout, one must verify that they are properly phased, and if not, correct the issue.  Checking phasing is very simple; correcting misphasing is easily done, with care.

You don’t need to worry about a “WOW” factor most people won’t care anyway! In your post money is a factor to consider so you don’t need a Z4000 or a ZW-L you need a reliable power source like the Z1000 especially getting started in the hobby.   Keep it simple to start out and maybe later you could step up to other options. 

Like I said all of these are great options depending on what you are running.  I know I am in the minority on this one because I run strictly LC, LC+, and soon LC+2.0.   I am no electronics expert and that's why I have consulted with many including Lionel.  The main breaking point in the LC system is the capacitor. And another weak link is the bridge rectifier. Both sigh a huge huff of relief when you run them on DC.

  Id venture to say nobody else that has commented runs strictly LC equipment. So they have no choice but to run AC. If you do run only LC engines you have a choice.  With no huge investment you can run your trains the way they were intended.  

Jim 

Allan,

Curious why you mentioned not using a CW80 Transformer vs Z1000 when running just LionChief Plus engines.

It appears the Z1000 puts out 100 watts versus 80 watts but is that a big deal?

Probably missing something here as I am just a newbie on transformers.

Thanks,

Bart

Bart1 posted:

Allan,

Curious why you mentioned not using a CW80 Transformer vs Z1000 when running just LionChief Plus engines.

It appears the Z1000 puts out 100 watts versus 80 watts but is that a big deal?

Probably missing something here as I am just a newbie on transformers.

Thanks,

Bart

 

Based on my own experience the CW80 is a problem child. There have been many posts about problems with that transformer. I had 2 die on me a few years back.  From my own personal experience the Z1000 has worked flawlessly for me.  I'm not brand loyal whatever works reliably is the way I go no matter who makes the product.  I also have a ZW-L which has worked very well with no problems. I also know many people that have the Z4000 which is a great transformer as well.    Here is a link to the Trainworld site. The Z1000 is also cheaper than the outgoing CW80.

https://www.trainworld.com/man...-z-1000-transformer/  

Chris,

I did notice the price was less expensive for the Z1000.  

Thank you for your input...

I started with the CW80 and was fine until I started to use the MTH DCS Explorer WiFi which is outstanding to run my MTH engines.  

While the CW80 had plenty of power it kept on blowing fuses in the DCS Explorer.  I swapped the CW80 with a Z1000 brick and have never blown a fuse.

 I have equal amounts of Lionel and MTH products and think that both brands are excellent so I’m not loyal to either.  I would recommend the Z1000 as this will allow for expansion into DCS if you choose at a later date. 

Whatever transformer you decide to purchase remember as your railroad empire grows you will need more power.  Plan expansion into your decision.

Carsntrains above has a point. If you are restricting yourself to LionChief and LionChief+ locos for now, no need at all to spring for an AC transformer like the CW80, ZW-L, Z4000, GW180 or Z1000.  You can get by with two LionChief DC wallwarts power sources.

If you are planning on a Lionel accessory or two, they have a system that allows you to pull power off a Fastrack section to power the accessory. With this approach no additional wiring is needed between the powerpack (as would be necessary with a CW80 or Z1000).  For this simple system, a GW180 or even a Powerhouse 180 watt with a command lockon is probably overkill.  Even the Z1000 with a variable controller may be more than you need and a greater expense. You already have one LionChief wallwart perhaps. If you buy another set, you'll have two. If you buy a LC or LC+ separate sale loco, a single wallwart for under $75 (for the more powerful one) will be sufficient.  You'll have more wattage (power capacity) than a single CW80 or Z1000, and for less expense.

As others have said, if you want to expand later to DCS/Legacy/Conventional, then a regular transformer (for conventional) will be needed at some point (for conventional only) or for command (DCS, Legacy, LC, LC+) a Lionel Powerhouse with a Command Lockon works beautifully with Fastrack and your total cost will not be much more than a Z1000 and much less than a GW180 or Z4000. 

Get the new Lionel catalog or look at it on line.  If you have a hobby shop that carries Lionel, they can show you the Fastrack section that provides accessory power at the site of the accessory, and cost out another LionChief wallwart (you may not need one if you have one and buy another set).  This costs you nothing or at least less compared with the other alternatives.  They can also price out a Lionel Powerhouse 180 watt and lockon for you if you want 180 watts and reserve for the future.  If you have no local dealer, look at Charlie Ro's prices online, they tend to be about 20% off MSRP for power and track, give or take.

Thank you all for being so kind and informative. I am not sure how to reply to all, so hopefully all will see this post. I know much, much more now than i did a couple days ago. I think we will be only running LionChief plus for right now, so the 72 watt power supply , seems to be the plan. I understand the benefits of the others , and as we grow (hopefully) , we can upgrade then. This is a nice forum and again thank you all.

I was curious about the load on a z1000 with 3 lionchief + locos.  Here is a screen shot of meters on three tracks running a  Gp-20 freight with 8 cars, a sd-60 with 9 cars, and a FT ABA with two powered units, 3 boxcars, and 6  lighted passenger cars (not LEDS).  All are powered by a single z 1000.

Assuming these are watts (probably not precise, but close?) this is near to the limit for a z-1000.  Didn't I read on the forum that 5 amps is about what the circuit breaker handles? this is about 4.5. 

Meters are left to right, the GP_20, the SD60 and the FT with two of the units powered and the passenger cars.

KKNAPPER,

Welcome to the forum!  If you haven't found us already, we are your local friendly model train store about 45 minutes west down the thruway.  Stop in!  We have all the great MTH transformers suggested above in stock and we can help you pick the right one for you and anything else you might need.  We are also an authorized service station for Lionel & MTH Electric Trains.  Bring your grandson in a few weeks (2nd March 12:00-4pm) to our O Gauge clubs OPEN HOUSE featuring a huge operating layout in their club room behind our store.

KKNAPPER posted:

Thank you Chris and Steve. I had not heard of the MTH Z1000, so i will check it out. But if that would be enough power for both of our Trains on the track , it seems like the way to go. The Lionel Chief Plus came with a remote that controls all of the features. From what i have read , we would just turn on the transformer , put the power handle up and use the remotes for the rest. Can you add multiple Transformers for additional power if ever needed ? Again rookie question. I live in Upstate Steve in Ilion,NY ( near Utica). I see your on the Island.

Welcome to the family!

Theres a few of us from the Utica area. I’m from New Hartford, my parents are from Utica and I live in Rome. 

I’m also a member of the O Gauge Club that JR Junction mentioned above, and would love to meet you at our open house!  JRJ is second to none, and has all of the above in stock, and so, so much more!

thanks!

-Mario

Here's my $ .02.  Most guys I know end up trying a few postwar Lionel locos, because they are fun.  They add nostalgia and a low cost collectible factor, and I have found the kids even like the old ones with all the buzzing and ozone!!  Nothing like 'em!!  

So, IF you EVER think you might want to do that, and if you have only the DC power packs, you will be faced with buying a different transformer. 

And (I hope) that almost anyone will never run the locos enough to kill a LC or LC+ loco with AC power, converted to DC, etc.  If I am wrong about that, then I guess I will have dead LC+'s at some point. 

So far- only failures out of 2+ years with my 5 or 6 LC's are from broken plastic gears on my early Pennsy RS-3.  All of the ones with Bluetooth (and maybe even some older as well) have metal gears, so just the old RS-3 has had a problem.

Since you're running Lionchief from the start you don't really need a handle transformer. Just buy a 180w powerhouse with a lock-on. You can add Legacy control later if you want.

The postwar note is a good one imo.  Without a throttle, that cant ever happen.

Few folks ever complain about buying too much power. It's the other way around; and usually involves regret and more being spent in the long run.

100w is "just right" for one big draw postwar unit too. I wouldn't consider less.

  So 100w or more and it should be a sine wave unit, not chopped sine.

 I don't doubt someone actually told you this, but you can't just state something along the lines of "dc doubles or triples life" without some better facts to back it, and still expect folk have it be accepted as "gospel".  The facts need a little more attention.

...Oops, the "box" inserted the quote a paragraph too low.... no copy/paste today either....

carsntrains posted:

Like I said all of these are great options depending on what you are running.  I know I am in the minority on this one because I run strictly LC, LC+, and soon LC+2.0.   I am no electronics expert and that's why I have consulted with many including Lionel.  The main breaking point in the LC system is the capacitor. And another weak link is the bridge rectifier. Both sigh a huge huff of relief when you run them on DC.

  Id venture to say nobody else that has commented runs strictly LC equipment. So they have no choice but to run AC. If you do run only LC engines you have a choice.  With no huge investment you can run your trains the way they were intended.  

Jim 

  Keep in mind "they" will also tell you brand X is better than brand Y transformers for running brand X, though it would take a NASA scientist and some pricy equipment to tell the difference between two sine outputs at times.

  If there is dc fed, half the rectifying diodes never really have to work. But the other half works just about as hard, maybe harder.  There is no reverse voltage for them to block, but 2 of 4 still use up voltage and emit some heat doing it on dc. They also now lack some of the "cooling break" ac may provide as the wave reverses and volts drop to 0v for a split second (at 60hz) and then moves to the other diode set.  Most diode failures involve not enough cooling/ too small an amp choice in my experience... or simply chance. So it seems to me to have a higher chance at a diode failing.

 IMO you'll never use the parts your attempting to "save" with dc, while using dc, so of course the theory is "certain parts last longer".  But most electronics don't "wear out" in the same sense we are used to either. Heat damage over time is the #1 issue I've seen, normally an engineering choice based on increased profit vs maintaining a bulletproof quality.

  Most diodes have an "infinate" cycle life. Cap cycling life, kinda like a battery, can be chemically worn out, but is usually more about a maker, type, and some luck than anything.  I have caps from the 40s still doing their jobs, but have had countless new ones die in a year.... But yea, that cap might last longer.... might...and again, on dc it isn't doing much, and if failed open(no leg to leg contact), it would still run fine on dc fed to it. A cap only smooths voltage peaks into a steadier voltage by absorbing and releasing excess energy as needed.

  If the internal rectification and filtering is that weak, then that filtering seems to me to be the deep issue vs the actual supply type. (and i know it changes nothing about what is out there already and has to be dealt with "as is") Fail predictions do become more accurate with no overkill built in...hmm.   I.e.; imo, omission of adequate ac filtering means "designed to fail early" for the vast majority of the O gauge crowd.

   So, if it is accurate to predict twice the life or better on dc , they are designed weakly and should be avoided just as the better parts needed to work great on ac obviously were.... Think about YOUR price difference between a set of 4- 4a and 6a diodes... now between a good cap and a cheapie. You didn't likely hit anywhere $1 in total cost difference did you? Now apply wholesale costs and your looking at maybe a quarter...  

I.e., something here doesn't sit right with me; be it the info, or the build itself.

(No, I don't think you made it up. I've been told total crap on the phone by a few businesses before, including the one in question... Just like my ISP, device maker, browsers, and email companies all point at each other when there is an issue.

  Few companies today admit a flaw not easily found or publicised and change it.

Only better experiences can return the optimism and faith I once had in big buisnesses too

Get a Z4000 - no worries - runs everything and, in my experience, is incredibly durable.

Question: New to the hobby & just got hold of the MTH 7 #30-2274-1 train set -I was told not to use my Lionel CW 80 with it- that it will screw up my MTh set ( Something about different wave frequency) Should I just go with the Z-1000 I saw a used one for $60 or should I buy new for $100? any insight would be helpful- Thanks!

Try the CW80 first. Won’t harm it and might work. 

@JR Junction Train & Hobby posted:

KKNAPPER,

Welcome to the forum!  If you haven't found us already, we are your local friendly model train store about 45 minutes west down the thruway.  Stop in!  We have all the great MTH transformers suggested above in stock and we can help you pick the right one for you and anything else you might need.  We are also an authorized service station for Lionel & MTH Electric Trains.  Bring your grandson in a few weeks (2nd March 12:00-4pm) to our O Gauge clubs OPEN HOUSE featuring a huge operating layout in their club room behind our store.

Question: New to the hobby & just got hold of the MTH 7 #30-2274-1 train set -I was told not to use my Lionel CW 80 with it- that it will screw up my MTh set ( Something about different wave frequency) Should I just go with the Z-1000 I saw a used one for $60 or should I buy new for $100? any insight would be helpful- Thanks!