White Glue for Homasote and Ballast

Mike Miller posted:

I searched both the forum and the internet and find that Elmer's white glue comes in different versions.  There is school glue, and 2 versions of "Glue All".  One has a lighter blue label and another with a darker blue label on which the Glue All is written.  Is there a difference or preference in which one to use for gluing Homasote and/or the ballast ? 

I hope this isn't a dumb question ?

Mike Miller 

Mike; 

I don't find it a dumb question... I am getting to the point of doing some scenic work on my first layout and had a similar question. Not to hijack your question, but several things I've read online suggest thinning white glue (whichever version is recommended, I'm sure) with water. I also used homasote which, I believe, is made from recycled paper - I was wondering if the glue or glue/water combo will damage the homasote.

White glue will not hurt Homasote, but will stick to it, even when cut with water for ballasting. Homasote is moisture resistant. Try spilling water on it, it beads up and doesn't soak in.

Mike,  This may be off question, but I used vinyl flooring mastic spread with a notched trowel to glue Homasote to plywood. I used diluted Matte Medium to glue the ballast to the cork roadbed.  I think any white glue diluted would work to glue ballast.

Allan O

To sort of answer the question, which to use, well, depends.  the 'school glue' type is water soluble, even after it has fully dried.  this could be good if you need to re lay ballast or some such, but could also be bad if humidity, over time, breaks the glue down.  I have to hand glue card-stock photo frames for my work and strictly avoid the 'school-glue' type as the frames will fall apart in humidity over time if it is used.  I recommend the 'glue-all' product.  I've used it for years, and it is wonderful stuff.  I also recommend not skimping on an off brand.  you can get the name brand stuff in a gallon size at the big box stores for about $15.  If you need a smaller applicator bottle, buy one small bottle, then refill from the gallon jug.  As an aside, don't let the stuff freeze.  it will still work once thawed, but becomes clumpy.   the white glue will do the job for gluing down your homasote, but when it comes to gluing anything to wood I prefer the yellow wood glue.  

In the end the school-glue is just that.  best used only if you expect a mess to clean up days later.  

As an aside the school-glue is also not photo safe.  meaning contact with photo paper can have odd discoloring effects, where as the glue-all is photo safe.  I bring this up as some folks like to use printed photos inside tunnel walls or on signs and the like so the 'school-glue is a poor choice here as well.. though the testing process for this was on real color-lab photo prints. it may not be as harmful on inkjet prints.  Not worth my trouble to ever find out, the last think I need is a customer complaining that their photo's have discolored.  

IMO.  It takes a lot of white glue,  note the temporary boards on the ends of this module. helps keep the glue/water mixture on the module.  I also have plugged hole in the module where wiring attaches to the track.  The glue/water,  applied liberally, will find the cracks/holes.   Also note the shine-ee on the black road, where the glue water mixture seeped out from the ballast.  White glue dries clear but may have a shine to it.  Keep in mind, that a 50-50 mix, glue and water, when it dries, more that 1/2 of it goes away.  Even using white glue, full strength, for model building, you're kind of amazed at how much it shrinks-up/goes away when it dries.   IMO

Note that you want to use good quality plywood or luan board that is water resistant.  Some of the cheaper grades that we have used tend to come-apart, delaminate, when the glue/water mixture soaks in.  Water resistant is good. Also note the brown latex paint to the left, helps protect the wood from the water. 

I use the Glue-All and youre not going to be able to apply it to ballast at 50/50, its too thick. Ive been at a ratio of 3 parts water to 1 part glue or 4 parts water to 1 part glue. Somewhere in there is the sweet spot. Plus you will need a good shot of dish soap to break the surface tension and get it to flow into the ballast. It works well and is cheap, hold very well but you will need to come back and do a second application of glue. I use it in a spray bottle for household cleaners and I have yet to need to apply so much that it runs thru holes in the table. Just remember, your gluing ballast to hold in in place, not to make it structurally sound

Whether I glue or screw homasote to plywood, is it advisable to leave a small gap between butted ends, or should I leave no gap at all ?  In a moisture controlled basement, will there be any expansion of the homasote even after the top side is painted/sealed ? 

Mike Miller   

I have had no movement in my homasote in my climate controlled basement. I also remember eric's trains the forum sponsor did a few videos on the use of glue and ballast.

To apply ballast to track, use a brush to spread it evenly. This is the most tedious part. Then take a spray bottle with a mixture of water and a touch of dish detergent and soak the area of ballast. Once done take an old squeezable mustard or ketchup bottle and mix up a solution of "Wet Water."  This is a mixture of less then 1/2 full of Elmers White Glue. Fill the rest of the bottle with water, 3 drops of dish detergent per oz. of glue mix & 2 drops of vinegar. Shake well. When squeezing onto ballast, soak the hell out of it. Everything will look all white and wet. You will think this is not right. Leave it be for 12 to 24 hours. It will be dried clear, clean and solid.

For securing the homosote to plywood use a floor covering glue then screw it down as well.

 Mike, my layout is over 25 years old. I screwed the homesote to the plywood. In a few spots you can see cracks in the ballast a swells the surrounding area where the homesote has shrunk at joints.  Easily fixed by adding in some finer grade ballast. My gaps were fairly tight and if I had any at all. I filled them with joint compound. Looking back. I probably should have left a slight gap between and filled in with a black flexible caulk or some strips of window sealer. I have what I consider a typical New England basement.

I like the ketchup bottle suggestion.   Have to remember that.  I also like using the matte medium solution more than white glue.

Baby bottles work well also.

Karl

Regarding attaching Homasote:

I live in Oklahoma.  In the region where I live there are very few homes with basements.  In fact, many of the underground storm shelters are "popping out of the ground" due to the clay rich soil and the ground water after heavy rains which floated the concrete or steel storm shelters out of the ground.

Thus we build in the house, in the garage or in my case, I built a 16x20 storage building just for the layout.  While it has AC and baseboard electric heat, they only run when I am in the building.  Homasote has been in place for well over 15 years. Rainy seasons, dry seasons, summer heat and winter cold. 

I NAILED mine in place with small finishing nails intended to hold 1/4 inch paneling and have NO noticeable movement.  Granted, there is no scenery in place that would crack if the Homasote shifted.  But there is no sign it shifted, so I am confident that will be a minor issue for my layout when I finally get around to scenery on this 3 rail layout.

Prior to the storage/"train" building, I used one of the bedrooms for my HO layout.  It was 80-85% scenery complete.  I used matte medium, cork roadbed on plywood and some Homasote, cardboard strips and paper towels soaked in plaster along with acrylic paints and ink washes...all the scenery techniques from Dave Frary's book.  In that environment it worked fine.  I plan to use much of the same...however, this is an Oklahoma City industrial switching district layout, so no hills like the Arkansas coal region of HO days.

My attitude is build it...if you have problems, it makes for a great thread topic to show how you "repaired" or tore it out and "rebuilt" the problems.