Who here actually owns a Lionel Legacy Big Boy and can provide an accurate measurement

I recently measured a Legacy Big Boy for the purposes of turntable sizing.  It measured 31 1/4" from flange to flange.

John,

 

I measure 33 3/4" with the engine and tender coupled using the same items that you used as a reference. It is just possible that my Legacy Big Boy is more closely coupled than your earlier release. I thoroughly enjoy my Big Boy and I hope that you are equally pleased with the new version.

 

Eric Hofberg

TCA, LCCA 

Eric

 

Interesting point about it maybe being more closely coupled. I had not considered that.

 

Thanks

Close coupled by 1 1/2 inches?  That sure sounds strange. I have close coupled many of my MTH, Sunset/3rd Rail,  and Lionel steam locomotive models, but NEVER by as much as an inch, let alone an inch and a half.

Mine fits perfect on the Ross 33" turntable....depending on how it is coupled it hangs over on each end 1/8" to 1/4". As I said that is on each end. That is the main reason that I ordered the 33" from Ross. It looks fantastic on the turntable.

Another VERY good point.

Thanks HW

supporting HW's point about close coupling, I only see a total of about 1.5 inches of gap available. Don't see how it could all be eliminated.

 

Would still like to hear from more owners but at least for now it appears like Lionel shrunk the big boy when they issued the JLC Legacy version

Did you read this man's post..."Flange to Flange"? Therein lies your 1.5"

All they have to do is use the expandable (butterfly bracket) drawbar like they did on the American Flyer Y3:

 

 

And it goes around 20" radius curves, too.

Rusty

 

Not really interested in what they COULD do, only care about what they DID do!!

sorry, apples and oranges. Has nothing to do with the question.

My my, a little touchy today, aren't we?  Pardon me.

 

Rusty

I will try to help you.  Below are pictures I took of my 2 Lionel scale Big Boys.

 

Lionel Legacy #4012, (6-11126) vs Lionel #4006, (6-28029)

 

In ALL photos, the Legacy version is closest/bottom engine in the pictures!

 

 

 

(ABOVE, Legacy on RIGHT of photo) First, I 'squared' the angle iron to the edge of the table.  Then put the track against it, so I have an equal starting point for measurements and perpendicular track.

 

 

(ABOVE)  Next, I put the locomotives on the track.  I gently pushed the 'cow catcher' each engine against the angle iron so no damage occurred.  Again, Legacy is in the front.  Ensured there was no 'play' in the engine / tender.

 

 

(ABOVE).  This photo was taken square to the tape measure.  The Legacy one is right about 34" as measured at the coupler.

 

 

(ABOVE, Legacy front) The TMCC version is just a bit over 35".  I then turned each Big Boy over and examined them.  There doesn't appear to be any way to change the draw bar length on either version.  Mine are fixed. Slack in the engine / tender draw bar isn't enough to account for the different lengths.  Besides, I ensured there was no slack before photos.

 

 

(ABOVE, Legacy on bottom)  Here are the two Big Boys side by side.  As you can see, there is quite a bit difference in length.  Why?

 

 

(ABOVE, Legacy bottom).  The tender body lengths are exactly the same.  Not shown here, but I measured them.

 

 

(ABOVE, Legacy bottom).  Look at the difference here!  The Legacy version is much 'closer coupled' than the TMCC version.  Both Big Boys are correctly attached to the tenders and even with the angle iron.  Pictures are worth a 1000 words!

 

 

(ABOVE, Legacy bottom).  I removed the tenders again, and this caught my eye!  Anyone notice something?  Look how much shorter the Legacy cab is versus the TMCC version.

 

 

(ABOVE, Legacy front).  Another picture showing the difference in actual engine lengths.

 

 

(ABOVE, Legacy on RIGHT).  Look at the back of the cab edges, the cow catchers are even in the picture.  Also, notice how the Legacy version everything (smoke stacks, whistle, etc) is closer to the bottom of the picture.  Part of this is the photo, but there is a noticeable difference in item locations on the two different Big Boys.

 

I bought each Big Boy for different reasons.  I'm not a 'rivet counter' but I do have a preference for scale engines.  Too me, they both look great.  The 'close coupled' look of the Legacy version is nice.  Which one is best?  I don't know, depends on what you prefer.  Each engine was top of the line when it was introduced.  The Legacy is much better detailed overall, which is too be expected.

 

I would say the following if you are looking for a Big Boy:  If you are a die-hard train buff and can't afford the new Vision Line Big Boy, the Legacy version is great.  It'll do anything you want.  If you can't afford the older Legacy BB, the TMCC version would allow you to have a lot of fun and play value.  It is acceptably detailed and sounds decent.  Careful hunting can reward you with deals that are well below $1,000.  I've saw them from $500-$900 frequently, depending on condition.

 

I don't think you can go wrong with any Big Boy.  They're just awesome.  If you are a Union Pacific steam fan, you need to have at least one!

 

I'll have to update this thread when my Vision Line Big Boy arrives.  It would be awesome to see all 3 compared.  HHHMMM, I have an idea.  Hope you all enjoy!

 

 

 

 

 

 

86TA, great and useful post. I'm not a steam guy, but your post is now the gold standard.  Thank you. 

Chris, thank you for the kind words.  I really enjoy helping where I can.  It gives me an excuse to get my engines out and play with them.

 

Here is the Lionel Legacy Union Pacific H-7, if you are interested in seeing another. Towards the bottom of the thread.

 

https://ogrforum.com/t...lionel-union-pacific

Excellent report and explanations, 86TA. The lower photos do indeed show that the engine/boiler portion is definitely shorter on the Legacy version, when compared to the earlier "JLC model" (if that is what that is). The real differences for me were, the 2-chuffs per revolution on the earlier model, while the later Legacy does have 4-chuffs per rev, but the whistle is incorrect.

 

Obviously the new Vision Line model will be much more correct, with 4-chuffs AND the correct UP deep whistle, even if it is more than an inch shorter. That "shortness may very well be a good thing!

I have the JLC Big Boy.  Set up on the track now it is, with 20 reefers and flatcars behind it, etc.   At rest on the rails, with the tender coupled, it is 33 7/8 inches from the tip of the cowcatcher to the very end of the rear coupler on the tender.  No measurement is without some error, and this might be off by 1/16th or maybe 1/8 inch plus or minus but no more.

A bit tough to tell for sure, but it almost looks like the pilot is a bit closer to the smokebox door on the legacy version. The larger gap makes the older model longer as well:

 

86TA

 

Thank you for the very comprehensive response to my question complete with side by side pictures.

 

So puzzle solved. Regardless of the closer coupling, the Legacy locomotive itself is shorter.

 

Thanks,

John

Hot Water

 

fyi, the early version was not JLC, just plain old TMCC

I didn't notice that until you mentioned it.  If I'd saw it earlier, I would have measured or compared it.  Both engines are back in the boxes now, so I guess we'll have to wait for my comparison of the new Vision Line BB to the older ones! 

 

Glad you saw it RickO!

Is it also possible that the location/length of the rear coupler is different in each BB model? Looks like the Legacy's coupler is located a bit closer under the tender, if I see that correctly from the pix.

Yes Jim I did.  I was just trying to offer the information I had at hand. 

 

Thanks though for another post where you put someone down and inject your predictable dose of sarcasm.  Try building someone up instead of tearing them down, you might like it.

The real 4014 is just a tad shy of 133' total. In O scale thats 33 1/4".... so that tells me the JLC TMCC version is too long, and the Legacy version is more accurate in total length. The extra gap in front of the boiler on the JLC TMCC version is not prototypical. 

To avoid confusion, the JLC "IS" the Legacy model.

The original TMCC BB was listed in the classic line.

The new VL model will be a reiisue of the JLC BB with updated electronics plus the coal load feature.

Joe

 

Is it just me, or does the engine on the left look like the cowcatcher is about an inch "behind" the legacy version on the right?

 

Rod

The Legacy BB has more detail the brass Westside/KTM super detailed BB of the late 70's. I have this and an early 1995 Sunset 2-rail BB. I bought the Legacy version because of the detail. The new vision version, as stated above is the same as the Legacy, except for the additional smoke and coal functions. I am happy with the one I have.

Rod,

It's an illusion by the camera.  Both cow catchers are even in the picture with the angle iron.

 

The one on the left is also sitting on a 1x4, which is hard to see in the picture.  The height difference changes the perspective and makes it look much different than it really is.

It looks that way because it appears he has the engine in the back (left) sitting higher, on a shelf board, in lieu of them both on the same surface or elevation.

Exactly.

Glad somebody brought in the dimensions of the real thing.  As your models get more realistic, the pilots get somewhat shorter, and the risk of fouling a pilot wheel on the cylinders or pilot goes up.  On an articulated, there is also the problem of the rear driver on the front engine striking the front of the rear cylinder while going around a curve.  Even 2- rail models have to build in a bit of extra clearance there.

 

So the question is not whether a more accurate model will be shorter - it will be - but whether it can still go around O-27 curves. As you reduce these clearances, your model will be increasingly restricted.  My Big Boy is reasonably accurate, and is restricted to 74" radius, which is O-148.

I don't think that any of the big articulated locomotive models in 3-Rail from Lionel, MTH, or Sunset/3rd Rail are "rated" for anything under 072 curves. 

You should say that as any scale big articulated locomotives.  Don't forget about us that buy and happily run semi and non scale big articulated.  My K-Line Big Boy is rated at O-31 and does do O-27.  It's not happy to, but it can do it.  My K-Line Allegheny and MTH Cab Forward are also rated at O-31.  So there are big articulated locomotives rated under O72, just not any scale big articulated locomotives.

Actually Charlie, my post was not directed to you and I was only trying to support your info. 

However, it was my mistake because after reading the word "turntable" in your post, it threw my mind into the "will it fit on a turntable" mode and that was not what was asked to begin with.

Looks like there is quite a bit of difference in the smokebox area, between the rear stack and the whistle, also between the whistle and where boiler is painted black.

 

May I suggest that you please refer to the title of this whole thread, and the questions the original poster asked? This whole thread is all about SCALE MODELS, by Lionel of the UP 4-8-8-4s. Thus my having to restate "scale" would have been redundant.

The title of the tread does not say scale in it, only Legacy Big Boys.  And Lionel did make Legacy Big Boys that weren't scale, hence my point of your sweeping comment about big articulated locomotives when someone talked about O-27.

Hot Water, thank you.  I got the Challenger book you recommended.  Also picked up the Big Boy book.  I have a lot more reading to do!  Been learning a lot about these beasts 

 

You're welcome.  Glad to help.

 

I don't recall this being the case.  I measured the tender bodies and they're the same size.  Just don't remember measuring the coupler location/length.  I'll check on it, but it'll be next weekend. 

 

When I scratch built my first turntable for my own layout I had built it to 33". This was before I got my Legacy BB. Once I got the BB I found that the front and rear couplers hung over the ends of my bridge, which I had to be careful not to park any engines close to the pit edge on the whisker tracks around the pit. Once I started producing TT I decided to expand the bridge to 34" so elimination that problem plus you could also put a PRR S1 on it also with a little overhang but the wheels would fit on the bridge. I couldn't do that with my original 33" TT. I hope this helps. 

 

 

Charlie, I'll see you at York.