Why such a large price difference between Lionel and MTH Reading T-1 locomotives?

It tells me that doing your homework before purchasing can save one a pant load of money.   That is of course IF MTH actually made the Premier T1.

Am I to understand that this T1 will be Lionel's first offering since the LTI days?  If so, it explains why you'll be paying a premium for new tooling, etc.

Bruce

The MTH model will be made from existing tooling - that accounts for some of the price difference.  Lionel's model will be made from new tooling - there's some of your price differential.  It has whistle steam - the MTH doesn't.  It says Lionel and comes in an orange and blue box - the MTH doesn't.  I'm pretty sure you'll soon receive a lecture on Lionel's pricing structure - I hope I'm wrong, but it seems to be a pretty dependable phenomenon.  My hunch is this will be an extremely nice locomotive - Lionel seems to be listening to folks about specific detailing for their latest premium models.

Your paying for the Lionel name. 

david1 posted:

Your paying for the Lionel name. 

People have always paid a premium for the Lionel name - it's no different now than it was 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100, 110 years ago,,,

brwebster posted:

It tells me that doing your homework before purchasing can save one a pant load of money.   That is of course IF MTH actually made the Premier T1.

Bruce

MTH's has been out for several months now---if you want whistle steam in one http://www.jdslimitedproductions.com/  had one of the Proto 3's upgraded with whistle steam at York.

Scott Smith

scott.smith posted:

brwebster posted:

It tells me that doing your homework before purchasing can save one a pant load of money.   That is of course IF MTH actually made the Premier T1.

Bruce

MTH's has been out for several months now---if you want whistle steam in one http://www.jdslimitedproductions.com/  had one of the Proto 3's upgraded with whistle steam at York.

Scott Smith

How much does the whistle steam upgrade cost to install?

MTN posted:

scott.smith posted:

brwebster posted:

It tells me that doing your homework before purchasing can save one a pant load of money.   That is of course IF MTH actually made the Premier T1.

Bruce

MTH's has been out for several months now---if you want whistle steam in one http://www.jdslimitedproductions.com/  had one of the Proto 3's upgraded with whistle steam at York.

Scott Smith

How much does the whistle steam upgrade cost to install?

Follow the link and ask. It varies depending on space and work involved. They do great work.

Scott Smith

MTN posted:

...  I'm pretty sure you'll soon receive a lecture on Lionel's pricing structure - I hope I'm wrong, but it seems to be a pretty dependable phenomenon.  ...

Paul -- nor anyone else here -- needs to be "lectured" on Lionel's pricing structure.    It is what it is.  Lionel prices things with pride up in the stratosphere because they can, and enthusiasts pay the prices anyway.

The new Vision Line GG-1 has a $1190 MAP with a $1399 MSRP.  Today I visited a large LHS in Southeast PA, and they had 3 Lionel JLC-class GG-1's on display:  two at $610 (pre-owned but otherwise in Mint/LN condition), and one brand new at $650.   I also saw  a brand new MTH premier single-stripe GG-1 w/PS3 "on sale" for $450.

Are folks gonna order the new VL GG-1 at $1190?  You bet. 

That exact same scenario will play out repeatedly for every other big ticket item as well.  And those items all make the exact same journey starting roughly 9,000 miles away on the other side of the world. 

David

I had a lot to say but David said it better!

MTH's tooling is probably from over a decade ago.  Lionel's is new.  Figure in inflation and the dramatically increased costs of making tooling in China or Korea.  And, of course,  Lionel is evil, manipulative and out to make people angry.  Never forget those .

Landsteiner posted:

MTH's tooling is probably from over a decade ago.  Lionel's is new.  Figure in inflation and the dramatically increased costs of making tooling in China or Korea.  And, of course,  Lionel is evil, manipulative and out to make people angry.  Never forget those .

The MTH T1 tooling was first cataloged in 2006.  And I bet that the detail is just as good as the new Lionel tooling.

ATSF Doug posted:

Landsteiner posted:

MTH's tooling is probably from over a decade ago. 

The MTH T1 tooling was first cataloged in 2006.  And I bet that the detail is just as good as the new Lionel tooling.

OK. I wouldn't bet too much, though.  MTH T1. 2004, actually:

MTH will most likely make more of the T1 than Lionel.

Lionel high-end items are often scarce, then that drives up the price even further.

Andrew 

I have seen more MTH steam and diesel locomotives in person the past 10 years than I have ever seen from Lionel over the past 40 years at hobby shops, train store, and on operating layouts.

Andrew

"And I bet that the detail is just as good as the new Lionel tooling"

And it had PS2 and a free battery inside every loco .  The new one has PS3 and no battery, which is sad, but the realities of modern economics.

Simple enough.  If you are charmed by DCS, the MTH loco makes sense.  If not, or you are charmed by Legacy, the Lionel loco makes sense.  If you wind up amongst the 1-5% of consumers needing service, the Lionel loco makes sense as well, based upon most people's experience with post-purchase service.  Some folks think the Lionel sound system/speakers are substantially superior, some do not.  Some like MTH smoke units better.  Not worth getting all exercised about in my view.  Strictly personal preference.  Not a moral, religious, political or earth shaking issue I'd think.

Are folks gonna order the new VL GG-1 at $1190?  You bet. 

I have six scale GG1, most MTH. I do not need a seventh. 

But I would like to see MTH do a old Rivets # 4800. I would buy it in a NYHB,

John P

For me personally, I would spend the extra cash on the Lionel model. Both brands are great ,but, for me, I feel the sounds on a Legacy Steamer really ads to the fun factor of these models. As Landsteiner said, it really is personal preference.  On a side note though, I can not stand the fact MTH steamers have the same one or two "chuffing" sound effects on all of their engines; that is a deal breaker for me. It makes all of their models seem the same.

Nick

Paul,

  I have said it on other threads.......the Legacy sounds and control plus the steam whistle are well worth the difference in price. Go with the Lionel you will not be disappointed.

  If you want to do the math and we do not really know each companies costs, profit  margins etc go ahead, today I will be running Legacy engines at my clubs open house (BDSME Bethlehem Pa see announcements forum)

JohnB

Landsteiner posted:

"And I bet that the detail is just as good as the new Lionel tooling"

And it had PS2 and a free battery inside every loco .  The new one has PS3 and no battery, which is sad, but the realities of modern economics.

Simple enough.  If you are charmed by DCS, the MTH loco makes sense.  If not, or you are charmed by Legacy, the Lionel loco makes sense.  If you wind up amongst the 1-5% of consumers needing service, the Lionel loco makes sense as well, based upon most people's experience with post-purchase service.  Some folks think the Lionel sound system/speakers are substantially superior, some do not.  Some like MTH smoke units better.  Not worth getting all exercised about in my view.  Strictly personal preference.  Not a moral, religious, political or earth shaking issue I'd think.

And it had PS2 and a free battery inside every loco .  The new one has PS3 and no battery, which is sad, but the realities of modern economics.

Why is this sad no battery?  PS-3 uses supercaps.  The feature increase for operating lighting in the engine is multiplied through a single board.  Not economics, new capability.  G

By the way, it occurs to me that the MTH T-1 tooling may be older than 2004, as MTH probably made this loco for the first time in the 1990s.  Someone more interested in MTH history than I can check.  Tooling costs are the major component in any steam engine,  or any other new product, I'm told.  If your tooling costs are from the 1990s rather than 2016, that would account for almost all of the price differential.

And as for comparing prices on the secondary market with new prices, that's an apples to camels comparison.  Depreciation begins the minute you walk out the door with the loco, and zooms higher when the warranty expires.  New products carry a warranty, which is expensive insurance from the manufacturer.  Secondary market items are caveat emptor.

I'm not in the market for expensive new locos, but I recognize that Lionel is virtually the only company doing new tooling in large numbers,  or significant investment in new technology right now, thus I'm expecting their products to be innovative and expensive .  LionChief and LionChief Plus are an exception, which is remarkable.  But if you're looking for new rolling stock, accessories and locos beyond what's been made in the last 20 years, you have few choices other than Lionel.  Certainly Atlas, Williams and MTH aren't producing any new accessories or technology (MTH's wi-fi aside).  Menard's is producing track, rolling stock and buildings.  But if you're looking for a full service provider doing new "stuff" Lionel is about it.

GGG posted:

Landsteiner posted:

"And I bet that the detail is just as good as the new Lionel tooling"

And it had PS2 and a free battery inside every loco .  The new one has PS3 and no battery, which is sad, but the realities of modern economics.

Simple enough.  If you are charmed by DCS, the MTH loco makes sense.  If not, or you are charmed by Legacy, the Lionel loco makes sense.  If you wind up amongst the 1-5% of consumers needing service, the Lionel loco makes sense as well, based upon most people's experience with post-purchase service.  Some folks think the Lionel sound system/speakers are substantially superior, some do not.  Some like MTH smoke units better.  Not worth getting all exercised about in my view.  Strictly personal preference.  Not a moral, religious, political or earth shaking issue I'd think.

And it had PS2 and a free battery inside every loco .  The new one has PS3 and no battery, which is sad, but the realities of modern economics.

 

Why is this sad no battery?  PS-3 uses supercaps.  The feature increase for operating lighting in the engine is multiplied through a single board.  Not economics, new capability.  G

Let's not forget the power of marketing..  One example,  Lionel has reverted back to the use of the less expensive and ugly anaconda wire between loco and tender on smaller legacy engines and advertises the cost cutting move as an upgrade for better electrical pickup.. LOL    

Fact is, my 0-8-0 switcher from a previous run with the wireless drawbar has never had a connectivity problem.  You would have thought, on a $900.00 engine, Lionel would have found a way to keep it wireless..  

Here's another, my JLC ht BigBoy has more add on piping detail then the new VL  BigBoy 

My new MTH P3  SF set of E6's has the best most prototypical sound I've ever heard from any diesel engine.. ever....Blows legacy sound out of the water...  

Bottom line, I've learned over the years those fixated on one brand over another and express it loudly as the best have no idea what they're talking about..    

Joe

Lionel executives drive Bentleys. Mth executives drive a Benz...............

I have both of the MTH PS2 Reading and Reading and Blue Mountain T1s.  I paid about 1K for both,combined.  Took out the batteries and replaced with BCRs.  Run great!!!  I don't run smoke to often so it doesn't bother me not having whistle steam effect.  I do like it but running it all the time isn't for me.   These two MTH engines are great runners and with a heavy price of 1400 bucks for the Legacy version, I'll wait a few years and when someone is done running their T1, maybe I'll be able to pick up one of these for a great price?

Tiss the name my friend. Buy what you like but the Lionel will always be a Lionel. As for smoke it's fun to see heaps of it..... for awhile, but gets your eyes and nose watering pretty quick.

JC642 posted:

Let's not forget the power of marketing..  One example,  Lionel has reverted back to the use of the less expensive and ugly anaconda wire between loco and tender on smaller legacy engines and advertises the cost cutting move as an upgrade for better electrical pickup.. LOL    

Fact is, my 0-8-0 switcher from a previous run with the wireless drawbar has never had a connectivity problem.  You would have thought, on a $900.00 engine, Lionel would have found a way to keep it wireless.. 

Bottom line, I've learned over the years those fixated on one brand over another and express it loudly as the best have no idea what they're talking about..    

Joe

So which brand do you know most about??

From Lionels parts site:

New Legacy B6B:   Drawbar $8.50          Legacy K4 ( used as an example)  Loco Drawbar w/ infra red sensor $12.60

                                   Tether     $18.50                                                                   Tender Drawbar w/infra red sensor $12.00

                                    Total      $27.00                                                                                                                        Total  $24.60

FWIW Lionels wired tether is about half the diameter of any other O guage wire tether.

Aside from anyone ( outside of yourself) who may stalling issues with previous 0-8-0  ( certainly 4 rollers are better than 2), the scale 4 or 5 feet between the loco and tender is a bigger eyesore than the wire tether.

I believe the wire tether also allows for closer coupling which is evident on the 0-6-0.

Lionel has been addressing the loco/tender coupling distances on many of its models. The T1 the OP mentions is no exception as it will be designed with a kinematic drawbar.

MTH knows marketing too, they slapped the PS3 name on the same old generic " cookie cutter" steam sounds from 10 years ago. 

Go Panthers!!

RickO posted:

JC642 posted:

Let's not forget the power of marketing..  One example,  Lionel has reverted back to the use of the less expensive and ugly anaconda wire between loco and tender on smaller legacy engines and advertises the cost cutting move as an upgrade for better electrical pickup.. LOL    

Fact is, my 0-8-0 switcher from a previous run with the wireless drawbar has never had a connectivity problem.  You would have thought, on a $900.00 engine, Lionel would have found a way to keep it wireless.. 

Bottom line, I've learned over the years those fixated on one brand over another and express it loudly as the best have no idea what they're talking about..    

Joe

So which brand do you know most about??

From Lionels parts site:

New Legacy B6B:   Drawbar $8.50          Legacy K4 ( used as an example)  Loco Drawbar w/ infra red sensor $12.60

                                   Tether     $18.50                                                                   Tender Drawbar w/infra red sensor $12.00

                                    Total      $27.00                                                                                                                        Total  $24.60

FWIW Lionels wired tether is about half the diameter of any other O guage wire tether.

Aside from anyone ( outside of yourself) who may stalling issues with previous 0-8-0  ( certainly 4 rollers are better than 2), the scale 4 or 5 feet between the loco and tender is a bigger eyesore than the wire tether.

I believe the wire tether also allows for closer coupling which is evident on the 0-6-0.

Lionel has been addressing the loco/tender coupling distances on many of its models. The T1 the OP mentions is no exception as it will be designed with a kinematic drawbar.

MTH knows marketing too, they slapped the PS3 name on the same old generic " cookie cutter" steam sounds from 10 years ago. 

Go Panthers!!

 

Wow, talk about perfuming a rotten egg.  The wired tether on my B6 is just plain "UGLY" no matter what the distance..    There's no excuse for reverting backward other then cost saving.

BTW, as other Lionel models show, you can get real close with a wireless tether...  Also, at $900.00, where's the deck platform that hides the drawbar?     For the record, the two pickup rollers on my 0-8-0 are spaced 4" apart.    I've never had a problem... That's further then larger Lionel engines I own plus there's two more on the tender..  

Joe

I read that Lionel's T1 will have a "kinematic" drawbar for closing engine to tender gaps - I have never seen this in operation before - is it neat and are their videos of it in operation? If this is as neat as it sounds - then this and whistle steam will increase the ante with the Lionel version - still not sure if they're worth $300 more, I guess it all depends on how one rationalizes ones expenditures.

Like I mentioned, Lionel's scale Berks released in 2014 had a very competitive price with MTH's scale Berks, street prices on Lionel's were even cheaper.

Lionel made new tooling for the Milw. Rd. S-3 back in 2010 or so and released that model for about $1,000 street price. I once read an interview from either Mike Wolf or Jerry Calabrese that importers make their investments back when re-releasing models...obviously I and others would have preferred a more reasonable intro price on the T1 like they did on the S-3. That was 6 years ago and times have changed in China - and I don't begrudge Asian workers wanting more money and a better standard of living, if that is indeed the cause of the price increase, although I thought MTH made their models in China as well, maybe they make them in a different province!

John, thanks for the invite to the Bethlehem train running...maybe I can get up there another day.

Go to 11:27 on Erics video

There was also another forum member who pushed the limits of this new drawbar running the o-54 rated loco on o-42 track

Paul Kallus posted:

I read that Lionel's T1 will have a "kinematic" drawbar for closing engine to tender gaps - I have never seen this in operation before - is it neat and are their videos of it in operation? If this is as neat as it sounds

Yes, it is neat as it sounds.  It brings the loco/tender gap closer to scale and closer on straight while expanding it on curves.

The Flyer Y3 uses it:

It's operation is very subtle, but for those of use who don't like a huge gap between loco and tender, it's the greatest thing since sliced bread.

The European HO train manufacturers have been using it for almost 20 years.

Rusty

JC642 posted:

Wow, talk about perfuming a rotten egg.  The wired tether on my B6 is just plain "UGLY" no matter what the distance..    There's no excuse for reverting backward other then cost saving.

The wire tether and seperate drawbar cost $3.40 MORE than the infra red.

BTW, as other Lionel models show, you can get real close with a wireless tether... 

Yes, larger models,that run on wider radius track, with more room under the cab and at the front of the tender.

Oh BTW how are those tethers on those MTH E6's???

 

Gentlemen,

     I also suggest you shop around when looking to Purchase, granted the new Legacy Engines are a little on the high side, however I really like my Meadow River Legacy Shay and our Northern Pacific GP9, great runners both.  I only wish Lionel would put out some Legacy Tin Plate, I would be more interested in the Legacy Tin complete sets, than the Reading RR Engines.  If you want a less expensive Lionel Engine look at the LC+.  If you want the latest top shelf technology you are going to pay for it.   Myself I like the MTH P2 Engines just fine, I own no P3 Engines at this time, and my Legacy & P2 Engines run fine, even on the same tracks even at the same time.  Remember also this has always been an expensive hobby, it is nothing new that some families can not afford certain parts of it, or in some cases any of it at all.

PCRR/Dave

RickO posted:

JC642 posted:

Wow, talk about perfuming a rotten egg.  The wired tether on my B6 is just plain "UGLY" no matter what the distance..    There's no excuse for reverting backward other then cost saving.

The wire tether and seperate drawbar cost $3.40 MORE than the infra red.

BTW, as other Lionel models show, you can get real close with a wireless tether... 

Yes, larger models,that run on wider radius track, with more room under the cab and at the front of the tender.

Oh BTW how are those tethers on those MTH E6's???

 

 

 Even if it was cheaper, its still stone ugly and visually, a huge step backward.    engine size make little difference in placement of pick up rollers,   Even though theres no mention of it, if the MR 2-8-0 in the 2015 catalog shows up with that same super ugly wire, I will surely cancel my preorder.

BTW, if you're referring to those very prototypical electrical connections between the cab units, they are fine, thank you for asking.. 

Joe 

That kinematic drawbar is very effective - that and whistle steam effect will probably push me to order the Lionel version, that is assuming I can arrange the finances. This is one model I hope will be delivered a good time in the future.

Thanks for posting the videos.

Paul,

Judging by Lionel's shipping pattern in the past 2 years, expect it to be out during the Thanksgiving or Christmas season this year.

More likely January 16th, or the Monday following the weekend that you finally give up Hope, and take down the Christmas Carpet Layout, that you had Hoped to run it on.

Meant in Humor, but likely to be reality,

Doug

JC642 posted:

BTW, if you're referring to those very prototypical electrical connections between the cab units, they are fine, thank you for asking.. 

Actually, I think that he was referring to the Premier Line Pennsy E-6   4-4-2 Atlantics,

Doug

david1 posted:

Your paying for the Lionel name. 

Like David1 says; "Your paying for the Lionel name!!"

For somebody new to the hobby their thinking is; it's Lionel it's gotta be worth a fortune!

That's why I would buy the MTH model, if I would buy another one, plus I would save a couple hundred $$$!

Lee Fritz

ATSF Doug posted:

Landsteiner posted:

MTH's tooling is probably from over a decade ago.  Lionel's is new.  Figure in inflation and the dramatically increased costs of making tooling in China or Korea.  And, of course,  Lionel is evil, manipulative and out to make people angry.  Never forget those .

The MTH T1 tooling was first cataloged in 2006.  And I bet that the detail is just as good as the new Lionel tooling.

I bought the MTH T-1 Reading steam engine new from around 2006 and I am not going to buy another anytime soon. Also bought used the sister T-1 engine for Blue Mountain & Reading, so now having a pair of MTH T-1's I am happy.

Lee Fritz

Mikado 4501 posted:

Paul,

Judging by Lionel's shipping pattern in the past 2 years, expect it to be out during the Thanksgiving or Christmas season this year.

Judging from Lionel's past catalog issuing of items, I would give this engine a 50% chance of ever being produced! I don't pre-order because you never know if it will be made!!

Lee Fritz