Williams Engine Resonance

Are any of the flywheels out of balance, or are the shafts that mount the flywheels bent? How does it sound with the shell off?

Actually I had not thought of that. I haven't taken the shell off yet. That will be step one this evening after work. I did look at the other BL2 with the shell off and didn't notice anything out of the ordinary with the flywheels or motors. All of my Williams hum a little on throttle up so it seems to be a common characteristic. Hopefully not a defect of some kind. How would you tell if the flywheels are unbalanced? Is it something you can see?

Thanks

What power supply are you using?  Is it one that produces some sort of chopped waveform?  The can motors may be "chattering" due to the power being delivered.

Scott I have 25 Williams locos (before Bachman) and haven't notice any vibration or unusual noise. I'm using all PW ZW transformers.  Maybe this problem is inherent in WBB locos but no matter they shouldn't vibrate.

I'm willing to bet he's using a CW80, Z1000, or similar chopped-wave power supply. I've used both with my Williams units and it does cause a humming sound in the motors, though I don't notice any resonance in the carbody. I only hear the sound at low speeds; once the train gets moving it's drowned out by the sound of the wheels. When running them with a KW or MRC Pure Power, the motors are basically silent.

The "howling" sound seems to point towards something vibrating against the shell, possibly a wire or loose component inside.

Wow, you guys are steering me in the direction of my dreaded CW80 transformer. Clearly that thing has got to go. The only reason I use it at all is that my Z1000 with the 100 watt brick will cut out (drop to zero) at the 3.5 to 4.5 volts where the Williams like to run. Is there a cure for the Z1000 dropout or better still a reasonable cost Lionel transformer that is MTH compatible?

Thanks

I was thinking along those same lines. The Williams E units use relays that just switch polarity of rectified track power. I don't think there are any capacitors to smooth either the rectified sine wave or chopped wave. Bent motor shafts will vibrate for sure but its unlikely two engines have bad motors.

 

Pete

The CW80 won't hurt the Williams units as far as I know, but if you want to get rid of the humming, you need a pure sine wave. Look into the MRC Pure Power transformers, or a postwar Lionel unit with fuse protection added. You can also wire the motors in series so they'll run slower at higher voltages.

scott,

 

I used a CW80 on a WBB scale GG1 for a year with no problems. I also have a Z750 & Z1000 brick with no problems.

 

Are your williams motors wired in series, this will slow them down and give you better speed control. It will limit the top end speed, so if you have little kids running the trains they won't fly off the track as a rocket heading to the moon.  

Your Z-1000 should not be dropping out. I have used one for several years with williams engines with no issues.

Rob

Rob,

That has also occurred to me that the Z1000 should not be dropping to zero at about 3 volts but can't figure out what could be wrong. I have an extra controller and will try that. May even have Z500 brick to try as well.

Thanks

here are the directions for wiring the motors in series, got these off of the bachmann website forum.

You might have a bad controller on that Z1000. I never checked mine with a meter but I'm sure it doesn't drop out at 3 volts. It goes pretty close to zero from what I can tell.

Thanks Pete! That looks like something I can do without getting into too much trouble. Really looking forward to having more speed control on the Williams!

Scott

Mike,

Hopefully that's the case. It will be a little frustrating though. The first controller I had with a Z-500 brick also went south. In that case the failure was a dead short somewhere in the controller. I had no idea an engine could go that fast and still stay on the track!

Scott

Scott,

It sounds like you may have poor power with lots of spikes if you are losing power supplies. Try putting one of the surge suppressor/arrestors they sell for computers between it and the wall. Many of them act as a handy on/off switch and power plug strip for the entire layout as well.

Otherwise See Dale H's posts on Paired Diodes to drop the speed at any given voltage so you can run higher voltage out of the transformer. This makes the spikeyness of switched supplies less evident.

Also Pete's post gave me the idea that adding a large value Cap across the transformer output may help, but I suspect  the cap will also increase the effective voltage and make your trains run even faster at a given power setting. Thus you are back to the Diodes.

 

And since one engine is worse, I suspect something amiss in that engine.

Loose mounting could let the can motor rock when hit by the pulse of voltage from those transformers. This in turn will make noise.

Russell

The wiring on that side of the house is old and ground is intermittent. I have one of those little test plugs in the power strip and the little light that indicates whether there is ground connected or not is constantly flickering. The television and vacuum cleaner don't mind but that may not be the case with my trains! I have a high end surge suppressor/filter at work and will take that home and use it. Will also get my brother in law over to help me check electrical ground on that wall outlet.

 

Thanks for weighing in Russell. I've been to your website. Hoping you are making good progress on your layout!

 

Scott

Scott,

I can concur with I believe a similar, comment,  I had my PW- V-150, and I just '

threw 2 williams  , Sd90's on the track (tubular), and they will do anything smooth

as can be,  -- run, em  as slow as snails pace-- or let em rip.  NO- Cw here for sure

thanks

Terry,

That's a Lionel V-150 correct? Seems like the earlier transformers are pure sine wave and not chopped. Can you cylce thru Forward-Neutral-Reverse with the V-150?

Thanks!

Yes, you can,!!  also, before,  I bought some proto 2 MTH, I got advice to read

the back, of the manual,  for Transfr, and to stay away from  CW-80, I dont have

a clue why they are not compatible, so My MTH runs on the PW zw, and the MTH

z750.  Not bashing , but I read and learn, there have been more negative CW-80

also, check -- AVATAR,  Ken-oscale, and Amc DAVE,  I think they have just as much enjoyment with the williams,  Price effective, heavy, and will pull  a ton forever!!!!!!!!!!   I can run these at night -- when folks are asleep, so smooth!!!!!

Scott

 

Here is some more stuff:  maybe, or also maybe not

but

https://ogrforum.com/t...80#17479526133573080

Your input may have nailed it Russell. I brought a surge suppressor home from work that was state of the art about 10 yeaas ago and installed between the house and the track power. Right away I noticed that the needle jiggle that use to be ever present on my analog volt meter was gone. That tells me the signal is suddenly cleaner. Since I started the hobby less than a year ago I have had more than a few issues that looked like they could be electrical but I was never able to find a problem with track wiring. Dirty house power may be the culprit.

 

Many thanks to you and everyone else who weighed in today. I got way more help than I ever expected!

I am not sure if the CW-80 will cause a hum in a Williams motor. Sounds more like a bad motor or gear binding up.

 

If you are going to use a power supply for a computer, I would use a battery back-up unit like an APC 500. Has power surge and an on/off switch.

Hopefully you are not in Florida, as I would highly recommend pulling the plugs out of the wall outlet when not running your trains. Even a double pole switch rated for 20 amps or higher can be jumped by a strong enough power surge. Power surges happen much more frequently in Florida, especially during a severe thunderstorm.

 

Lee Fritz

The CW80 will cause a hum in the motors, as will a Z1000.  At least, they both do on mine- but the hum is nowhere hear as loud as the OP is describing.  Some other issue is causing the resonance he's experiencing. 

Actually, I made the change recommended by DL&W Pete and wired the motors in series. Smooth performance and no more hum! (many thanks to you Pete). I also installed a line filter in place between the wall outlet and the table power strip. Not sure but power quality coming into the house may also be an issue.