Williams Gulf, Mobile & Ohio Passenger Set

Very pretty set, good for you!

I have some Atlas F3's and the William's 72' ABS cars that make a handsome combination.

Can't locate the pics of the cars but they are quite nice and came as a 6 car set. The deep red on the sides is much darker than the locomotive but still looks decent. I like the colors on the F3's much better.

Thank you.  Was a completely random find online and I was drawn to the color pallet.  The engine is the only powered unit and it hauls the entire consist without hesitation.  I've always like this passenger car design which was shared across Lionel, MTH, Williams and Weaver so why not add another to my collection?  You have photos of yours?  Would love to see it in its entirety.

I have the 72' cars and the GM&O Alco FA A-B locomotives.   This is a beautiful set and one that will remain in my collection.  I got the cars rediculously cheap some years ago during a Trainland sale.  Wanted the E7 power but due to scarcity I went with the FA pair.  Even while I trend toward 21" passenger cars and selloff of 15" and 18" cars, this set is never on the chopblock!

I have lots of old Williams flyers.  I will look for the 15" cars in aluminum for you when I get a break to head to the train room.  I recall times when they offered almost unlimited road names in about everything.

@c.sam Loving those F3s. They strong pullers?

@VistaDomeScott O scale passenger cars are getting longer and longer every few years. I have 15", 16", 18" 21" (on order). Those Lionel 15" cars will always have a soft spot. If you DO come across a flyer, share it please. I'm curious what other road names were available. I was just at Trainland the other day and they have the Williams Alco AB unit on the shelf.

The aluminum 60' GM&O cars are pretty nice in a Williams sort of way, and the 60' length looks better on most curves, even 072. The GM&O never had any fluted-side lightweight passenger cars, nor a "dome car" of any kind, and the paint/striping is a bit off - but - I like mine anyway. I had the plastic 72' cars, but sold them and kept the 60-footers. The Alco FA's are good models and couple closely, which many higher-end AA and AB sets do not. BTW - the EMD F's were used by the GM&O on the "North End" (St Louis to Chicago/KCMO), and the Alco FA/FB's were used on the "South End" (St Louis to Mobile/New Orleans).

I have sometimes looked at the dome car and wondered if I could "de-dome" it presentably, but I see no way to do it. The windows would even have to be modified. Possible, but probably a long walk to an obvious hack job.

I know - I'll make the dome car into a dynamometer car! Yeah - that's the ticket... 

Although my archeological catalog dig did not yet find my cherished old Williams catalogs, here is a link to a dealer I used to buy Williams from.  The page shows the 15" aluminum GM&O cars.  Yorktrains was in Indiana and stocked lots of Williams back in the good old days. 

http://yorktrains.com/Williams.../passcars/60ftll.htm

It's truly amazing the variety of road names Williams was able to bring to the hobby wasn't it Scott?

@c.sam posted:

It's truly amazing the variety of road names Williams was able to bring to the hobby wasn't it Scott?

Yes it was very amazing.   I used to enjoy getting the Williams flyers that unfolded like a map with so many choices.   I bought a lot of Williams in those days.   I still keep most of it and run the F3'S, E7'S, GG1'S, Genesis, and others throughout the years. 

@VistaDomeScott Thank you so much for posting that link to the flyer.  I would LOVE to find the Northern Pacific cars in the same style.  Great color combo and would GREAT with the Lionel full-vista dome set which are a dime a dozen.

@D500 One of my fellow club members did the opposite, creating an off-set vista dome from a coach, required some effort, but made it happen.  It wasn't soon after that Lionel and MTH created a similar look to the dome cars, rather than having it centered. 

As a whole, I feel Williams was underrated.  In my opinion, their products were comparable to Lionel and MTH at the time and quite frankly, their trains just run without all the complicated features of current Lionel and MTH products.  Sure they weren't as sophisticated but what there was just plain worked.  You put it on the track and it takes off without effort.  I've bought several of their items over the years and most recently the aforementioned GM&O set, Burlington Blackhawk F7 ABA with the 6-car set, Atlantic Coast Line F7 ABA with the 6-car set and the Reading 6-car set; I have the Lionel T-1 to pull them and would gladly buy the F3s or F7s to match...if I can find them.

David,  I sold a set of the NP 15" cars to a forum member.  The light green on some sets is a bit like toothpaste green.   Some runs of the NP cars had a better green color.  Be careful to get all the same if you can. Otherwise the difference may bother you.

Power for my Atlas O California Zephyr is Williams F3,  A-B-B-A with one of the B units powered.  The heavy train and added motors smooths out the start and stop operation on the Williams locomotives.

I too Love the Williams engines!  If I were handling their advertising I would have called the product "Simply Reliable!"

There are more roads they could offer. Reruns of the hard to find Santa Fe blue and yellow bonnet F3's to name two.   

I couldn't agree more.. reliable just about sums it up. I just want to put an engine on the track, power it up and let it go without worrying about waiting for it to cycle, program it to a remote, etc. The market for these more conventional products is on the rise. Collectors and operators are at wit's end with the complicated sound and control systems malfunctioning.

So I just picked up a mint-in-the-box set of 5 MTH Delaware & Hudson Aluminum cars (MT-6006); now I have to find a 2-car set from Williams to match.  The hunt begins...unless anyone has a lead on them.

These discussions about the GM&O Williams cars and locomotives are most interesting. Being a big GM&O fan since the early 50s I am always in search of an F locomotive. I can't seem to be in the right place at the right time. Just as D500 said the EMD Fs ran the North End of the line. I have the Williams passenger cars and like the colors. I only wish the light on the observation car was more like the observation cars of the GM&O, Lonel has also done some nice Chicago and Alton cars (the predecessor of the GM&O). The GM&O Historical Society is a great resource.

Not just a whole lot of GM&O stuff around. I've always thought the livery was beautiful. Not Williams, of course, but recently Lionel did a gorgeous Legacy GM&O PA set with matching 18" heavyweights. Pretty pricey, though.

@Chuck Kehoe posted:

I am always in search of an F locomotive.

Forum sponsor @Berwyns Toys and Trains is doing an MTH custom run of GM&O F7's for delivery later this year (probably more like early 2024).  Available for preorder here.

Those Berwyn MTH special run engines might be nice, although I'd rather see F3s, without the stainless mesh, than F7s. To me, having the dark maroon band running along the upper carbody of the engine looks a lot nicer than it does with a silver strip.

The other issue is there won't be any matching passenger cars available. Without those, you'll never have a matching set of engines and cars, because (with very rare exception) the colors used by each manufacturer is different. For example, looking at C.Sam's set with Atlas O engines and Williams cars, the color of the dark maroon on the engines vs. the cars is hugely different, almost like the cars belong to a different train. So these MTH F7s will probably best be used only for freight service.

@MikeH posted:

Forum sponsor @Berwyns Toys and Trains is doing an MTH custom run of GM&O F7's for delivery later this year (probably more like early 2024).  Available for preorder here.

Actually, over the years, the GM&O has been represented fairly well, considering that it was a medium-sized road, located in the South and Midwest and not the Northeast. (I worked for them, once upon a time.) GM&O models seem to sell. Gons, Boxcars, passenger sets (the red/crimson, pre-purchase of the Alton, MTH DL-109 and matching cars set was outstanding), passenger cars, steamers (4-6-2's; 0-6-0's; 2-8-2's) and diesels (GP30/GP35/EMD F's; Alco FA's and PA's; RS1;RS3 by Atlas and Lionel) and things that I have forgotten.

MTH even produced an RS-1 (I have it, of course) in the pre-Alton crimson and silver scheme, as well as the DL-109 and cars in that scheme (yes, I have it, too).

Below - MTH RS-1's - the original GM&O diesel silver scheme in the center (probably my favorite); the later Alton-inspired scheme used after the GM&O absorbed the Alton.

Not sure about the cute little Alcos to the right....

@D500 posted:

Actually, over the years, the GM&O has been represented fairly well

Roger that.  Didn't mean to imply that GM&O wasn't represented well.  I just meant there are more on the way.  I have that DL109/110 you mentioned.  I didn't get that matching RS-1 but that is nice.  I do have two other MTH RS-1's, and some F3's:

MTH 30-20869-1

MTH 30-20082-1

MTH 20-20157-1

@MikeH posted:

Roger that.  Didn't mean to imply that GM&O wasn't represented well.  I just meant there are more on the way.  I have that DL109/110 you mentioned.  I didn't get that matching RS-1 but that is nice.  I do have two other MTH RS-1's, and some F3's:

MTH 30-20869-1

MTH 30-20082-1

MTH 20-20157-1

Nice locos and tidy layout (I wonder what that's like...?) I do not have any GM&O EMD F-units; I do have Alco FA/FB-1's, some painted by me, plus the Wms-painted versions from a few years back. I do have the old Wms E-7's. Fair paint execution.

I painted 2 Atlas RS-1's in the scheme above - right before Atlas announced that they were doing their RS-1 in GM&O. Gr-r-r! However, it took so long for them to show up (4 years I think; a friend ordered them) that I'm glad that I painted the others. One was for another friend.

Lionel's recent GM&O E-8's were also bought by the same friend that got the Atlas RS-1 - and the colors are wrong. He said "I keep seeing Southern Pacific, kind of". I did too. This kept me from buying the recent Lionel GM&O Alco PA1 set.

@D500 posted:

Lionel's recent GM&O E-8's were also bought by the same friend that got the Atlas RS-1 - and the colors are wrong. He said "I keep seeing Southern Pacific, kind of". I did too. This kept me from buying the recent Lionel GM&O Alco PA1 set.

Oh yeah.  I wasn't going anywhere near Lionel GM&O colors!  In fairness to them though, I saw their most recent heavyweights in person recently and those colors look very nice.  I would have bought them but I already bought the Atlas/MTH version.

By the way, I was at York last week and I saw the cars below.  They seemed long, maybe 21".  The guy had them for sale with no box.  I passed.  Any idea who made them?

@MikeH posted:

Oh yeah.  I wasn't going anywhere near Lionel GM&O colors!  In fairness to them though, I saw their most recent heavyweights in person recently and those colors look very nice.  I would have bought them but I already bought the Atlas/MTH version.

By the way, I was at York last week and I saw the cars below.  They seemed long, maybe 21".  The guy had them for sale with no box.  I passed.  Any idea who made them?

Those appear to be the Weaver Osgood-Bradley cars - the "American Flyer" passenger cars. I have one of them, somehow, still in the box. Not GM&O-specific, but nice-looking.

(I also have a single Golden Gate Depot NYC Mercury car, brass, in the box, somehow. Maybe I should make a train of them - they are my 2 favorite RR's.)

Yeah, they looked really cool.  I have never seen them before.  I need to keep an eye out for them.  Do you know if they did whole sets of them?  Or is it just a car or two here and there?  I have zero knowledge of Weaver (only got in the hobby a few years ago).

I bought those two GM&O passenger cars at York. The colors are very good and I like the black round top. The windows are a little off, I think. I was told they are Golden Gate Depot cars, but there were no boxes to go with them. The cars measure 22 1/2". 

That measurement is coupler to coupler 22 1/2."

I totally agree with Breezinup's comment, "Those Berwyn MTH special run engines might be nice, although I'd rather see F3s, without the stainless mesh, than F7s. To me, having the dark maroon band running along the upper carbody of the engine looks a lot nicer than it does with a silver strip." I mentioned the same thing to the folks at the Berwyn booth and we went to the MTC booth where I explained the stainless steel mesh was not consistent with the GM&O colors. The MTC said they would look at that. Not sure where that stands right now. As a member of the GM&OHS, I have seen lots of photos of GM&O F locomotives and I don't remember seeing any with stainless steel, at least on the North side of the GM&O.

A quick Google search brings up several pictures of GM&O F7s with stainless grills, so it appears that they are prototypical.

I was tempted when Trainworld was blowing out the williams 4 car set of 18" cars for $99, but I need more passenger cars like I need a hole in the head.

@Chuck Kehoe posted:

I bought those two GM&O passenger cars at York. The colors are very good and I like the black round top. The windows are a little off, I think. I was told they are Golden Gate Depot cars, but there were no boxes to go with them. The cars measure 22 1/2".

GGD has not done any GM&O cars.

@Lou1985 posted:

A quick Google search brings up several pictures of GM&O F7s with stainless grills, so it appears that they are prototypical.

Agreed.  F7's have the grills in every picture.  Chuck, Check here for reference.

The model is now Atlas property - I guess acquired when Weaver went away. They’ve done a coupe of issues (Atlas website) but Not GM&O so it must be an earlier Weaver issue. Here’s an Atlas example from their web page for comparison to the earlier GM&O pic  

@RailFan820 posted:

@VistaDomeScott Thank you so much for posting that link to the flyer.  I would LOVE to find the Northern Pacific cars in the same style.  Great color combo and would GREAT with the Lionel full-vista dome set which are a dime a dozen.

@D500 One of my fellow club members did the opposite, creating an off-set vista dome from a coach, required some effort, but made it happen.  It wasn't soon after that Lionel and MTH created a similar look to the dome cars, rather than having it centered.

Here is a Williams NP ABA/6 cars

@MikeH posted:

Yeah, they looked really cool.  I have never seen them before.  I need to keep an eye out for them.  Do you know if they did whole sets of them?  Or is it just a car or two here and there?  I have zero knowledge of Weaver (only got in the hobby a few years ago).

I recall there being a set. I regret not getting it. They weren't GM&O" true, but looked really good.

Weaver is greatly missed in 3RO - in some ways more than K-Line. They did everything from plastic models to brass steamers, some offbeat, which is always good. They did not do "sub-" or "semi-scale", so "Weaver" means 1:48.

Speaking of GM&O and Williams - I bought the aluminum 15" - 16" GM&O ribbed passenger set, just because they were made and I wanted to support GM&O production. The paint job is only fair; the GM&O had no ribbed passenger cars, and what am I supposed to do with a ribbed GM&O dome car? No such animal on either point. I can't come up with any plausible story or "conversion". Except maybe a freelance dynamometer car....mmm.

@Lou1985 posted:

A quick Google search brings up several pictures of GM&O F7s with stainless grills, so it appears that they are prototypical.

@MikeH posted:

Agreed.  F7's have the grills in every picture.  Chuck, Check here for reference.

Yes, the F7s had the stainless grills, which is why I said I would have preferred it if they'd done F3s instead. There are other liveries where the stainless grills detract, too, at least to me. To mention a couple, these include Milwaukee Road and Santa Fe Warbonnets. I was happy when Lionel did their Legacy Warbonnets with F3s instead of F7s for that reason.