Williams/WBB trainmasters, are they "scale" dimension?

A scale Train Master should be 16 1/2" long, pulling face to pulling face, as the real thing was 66' long. If you're talking scale, there's no such thing as "roughly"...

@Magicland posted:

A scale Train Master should be 16 1/2" long, pulling face to pulling face, as the real thing was 66' long. If you're talking scale, there's no such thing as "roughly"...

This is the 3-Rail Traditional Toy Train sub-forum where semi-scale and "roughly" scale items DO exist.

Here is more clarification,

That 14 3/4 dimension is eyeballing a tape measure on the body. I thought if anyone had a Williams TM that would be easy to check.  Lionel states overall dimension is 16.5 inches.

I am asking the question since I thought a Williams dummy might look cool running with the legacy but wanted to check that it is "roughly" the same size as the legacy so it looks like they go together for club running.

I have a Williams Trainmaster, an MTH Premier Trainmaster, and a couple of Lionel Legacy Trainmasters.  All of them are 15.5" long exclusive of the couplers.  They're also the same height.  I think Lionel's measurements are to the end of the couplers, at least that's what my lionel Trainmasters measure.

To answer the question, at least "some" of the Williams (pre-Bachmann) models are scale sized.

EDIT:  Note that the measurements for prototype locomotives are the "length over couplers".  That means to the inside of the coupler, the "pulling surface" on the knuckle.  That's where the overall length quoted comes from.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I have a Williams Trainmaster, an MTH Premier Trainmaster, and a couple of Lionel Legacy Trainmasters.  All of them are 15.5" long exclusive of the couplers.  They're also the same height.  I think Lionel's measurements are to the end of the couplers, at least that's what my lionel Trainmasters measure.

To answer the question, at least "some" of the Williams (pre-Bachmann) models are scale sized.

Bingo and thanks, that is what I needed to know.  Let the games begin!

John essentially got it right. But here are some specific measurements and photos to clarify how Train Masters (not Trainmasters) scale out.

First of all, using Bob Hayden’s Kalmbach book “Model Railroader Cyclopedia Volume 2: Diesel Locomotives,” a Fairbanks-Morse H24-66 Train Master measures 66 feet from inside the front faces of the couplers.

But if you use a scale ruler, you can measure other dimensions.

So I measured the frame (front handrails to the rear handrails). That’s 62 feet. This dimension is far more useful than the coupler-face dimensions because our 3-rail couplers are much larger and stick out much farther than properly scaled couplers.

In 1:48 scale, 62 feet is 15.5 inches.

Next, I compared my K-Line and Williams Train Masters. Lengthwise, they compared favorably, both very close matches in scale frame length. Here are two photos (Williams on the bottom) showing them from the top and side. The K-Line model is more realistic overall. You can decide if they would look good together.

My Williams, K-Line, MTH, and Lionel Trainmasters are all exactly the same size exclusive of the couplers.  I forgot about the K-Line one when I was doing my previous measurements.  AAMOF, from the specs on the MTH site, even the Railking Trainmasters are scale sized.

I guess the real question is, can you find a non-scale Trainmaster!

So trainmaster is not the same as train master…..very subtle

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I guess the real question is, can you find a non-scale Trainmaster!

Great observation.  The answer in O scale is no since Lionel decided to make their Postwar Trainmaster a relatively scale locomotive from the beginning.  One of those rare times when the differences are more in the level and quality of details over the dimensions. 

I am pleased with my Williams CNJ one.  My Atlas N one has better and more detail, but the Williams model is still a great value in O scale.  I like the K-Line one best from a detail standpoint, but I sold mine last year as I've slowly been divesting myself of unused 3 rail items.

I suspect you're right Jonathan, I forgot about the Lionel PW one being full-sized.

The Williams & MTH Rail King (originally Premier but moved to the RK line) Train Master are pretty much carbon copies of the postwar Lionel Train Master. The shells will even interchange between them all. They are all scale sized, just lacking in detail compared to the more recent Lionel/K-Line/MTH Premier versions.

As a FYI these "traditional" Lionel models are scale sized, just not nearly as detailed as modern versions:

F3 (postwar/MPC/LTI/LLC, Williams, and MTH Rail King scale)

GP7/9 (postwar/MPC/LTI/LLC and Williams)

Train Master (postwar/MPC/LTI/LLC, Williams, MTH Rail King)

Great information, I had no idea the options were so broad. This is very helpful too.

@Lou1985 posted:

The Williams & MTH Rail King (originally Premier but moved to the RK line) Train Master are pretty much carbon copies of the postwar Lionel Train Master. The shells will even interchange between them all. They are all scale sized, just lacking in detail compared to the more recent Lionel/K-Line/MTH Premier versions.

As a FYI these "traditional" Lionel models are scale sized, just not nearly as detailed as modern versions:

F3 (postwar/MPC/LTI/LLC, Williams, and MTH Rail King scale)

GP7/9 (postwar/MPC/LTI/LLC and Williams)

Train Master (postwar/MPC/LTI/LLC, Williams, MTH Rail King)

I don’t think anyone has made a version of the FM Trainmaster that is not essentially scale. There are no O27 Trainmasters .

@Sullyman626 posted:

I don’t think anyone has made a version of the FM Trainmaster that is not essentially scale. There are no O27 Trainmasters .

That was my thought as well.

@Catdaddy posted:

So trainmaster is not the same as train master…..very subtle

Um, I’m forced to invoke Rich Melvin and his continuing quest to educate those mixing the terms.

@Rich Melvin

@Catdaddy posted:

So trainmaster is not the same as train master…..very subtle

You are correct.

In 1953 the Fairbanks Morse company marketed a diesel locomotive which they called the “Train Master.” It was a 2,400 horsepower brute of a locomotive.

A “trainmaster” is a middle management company officer on a railroad.

@raising4daughters posted:

This is the 3-Rail Traditional Toy Train sub-forum where semi-scale and "roughly" scale items DO exist.

Not when the OP asks if they're scale...

True confessions from the OP....

I thought I might get in trouble with this when I was too lazy to check what was correct- you know the 50/50 coin flip, Trainmaster or Train Master. I lost!  Although I must admit that a title like "trainmaster" for a middle management company official is quite appealing for a career in my next life.

@Rich Melvin posted:

You are correct.

In 1953 the Fairbanks Morse company marketed a diesel locomotive which they called the “Train Master.” It was a 2,400 horsepower brute of a locomotive.

A “trainmaster” is a middle management company officer on a railroad.

Not to take sides on the scale versus non scale thread options, I have to admit I love scale rolling stock but am a bit mixed with scale and non scale locos as long as they look good on the layout. In this case, I wanted to be sure if I bought something like a dummy Williams, MTH, or whatever, it did not look bizarre running with the Lionel Legacy. Hence I posted on the toy side of life.

@Magicland posted:

Not when the OP asks if they're scale...

I am continually amazed at the depth of knowledge folks on this forum possess!

@hokie71 posted:

True confessions from the OP....

…Although I must admit that a title like "trainmaster" for a middle management company official is quite appealing for a career in my next life.

At one time, a trainmaster was a respected position on the railroad. They were charged with the responsibility of making sure their divisions ran smoothly. He was a guy that had hired on as a brakeman, gained experience working the ground and ultimately worked his way up to a middle management job. They had authority to make decisions concerning the operation of their divisions.

Today the railroads are run by computers and trainmasters are little more than paper-pushers. When I was Superintendent of Operations for the Ohio Central in Youngstown, Ohio, I worked with a so-called “trainmaster” on CSX who told me he had NEVER worked the ground! To put that in another context, that’s like being the chief of surgery at a hospital having never been in an operating room.

Very sad…

@hokie71 posted:

Not to take sides on the scale versus non scale thread options, I have to admit I love scale rolling stock but am a bit mixed with scale and non scale locos as long as they look good on the layout. In this case, I wanted to be sure if I bought something like a dummy Williams, MTH, or whatever, it did not look bizarre running with the Lionel Legacy. Hence I posted on the toy side of life.

While scale sized, the Train Master has usually been depicted incorrectly, from Lionel's fantasy CNJ blue and tangerine livery, to the Virginian's "blue" and yellow (Virginian never used blue and yellow on their Train Masters), though Lionel's hardly the only ones to do this. But unless you've got a model of one of the FM demo units (2 went to Wabash, 2 to SP), there's no space under the side walkways as depicted by just about everyone (which is, again, not unusual, as everyone just copied everyone else) except the Lionel legacy version (which you have) and the LATER MTH Premier units.

I appreciate the English lesson, and also how you explained it without it being a put down. Thankyou, Masters of Train Knowledge.