Will's Build Thread (Scenery: 4/5/13)

I would not stress too much about oval. You are working in 30 feet, it is not easy to take all of it in with the eyes.

Your center yard is a headache waiting to happen. You need a yard lead, Arrival and departure and a better location for the engine house where engines can escape to.

You have a good start so far. Remember to allow 3 feet for human giants to waddle through.

Thanks for the feedback! 

I have tried to remedy the problems you stated! 

I think you have a solid start. My only input would be to maybe lose the mountain/tunnel area and add an industry. I get the feeling that switching will entertain you the most (it does me anyway). If you really want to have a tunnel how about adding one at the left side that drops under the coal mine area. This track could lead to underlayout staging, if you have the room to do that. It would allow for even more switching options when you have trains from other railroads show up and exchange cars with you line.

Instead of diagonal yard tracks consider using somewhat  parallel oriented yard and commerce tracks on fingers so as to have adaquate service access and not fill the center of the room.

Also, consider towns on each side of the lift out area.  When operating. simply remove the lift out and work the RR point to point.

10 X 30 may seem like a lot of room but once you start working with that footprint it can seem small.  Yards eat up a lot of space.  Consider a way if you can to drop the yard below the deck and stay with industrial switching. 

Maybe just eliminate a visible yard and supply cars from interchange tracks.

Hidden storage tracks against the wall under scenery or behind building fronts will help with extra rolling stock.

Consider topless scenery where you can reach in to service derailed cars or track.  An added feature of topless scenery is that it becomes a separating focal point for a 3-D effect against wall murals.

The relative positions of the coal mine/tipple and power plant beg for a loads in/empties out-empties in/loads out operation. Extending the buildings to hide tunnel entrances and discreetly placed wye turnouts would allow you to move an entire train's worth of cars into one building and pull it out of another.

Ok I have taken in all of your considerations and done what I can! I cannot have underlayout storage tracks because I am building this all on shelving and cabinets...My dogs crate will be build under the large area of the layout haha  The basement is 600sqft and this layout takes up 270 of it lol! But I think if I have enough storage under it will be ok with the girlfriend haha! 

Ok so here is Version 3 let me know what you think!

You know.....If you made the layout around ALL the walls(600sq.ft.).....You could fit the couch and other stuff underneath the edge of the layout?  Put a nice walnut or oak edge on it (furniture look).

I tried that one haha all I got was  hahaa

Will backer,

One thing to remember is reaching in and over scenery, buildings, tracks etc.. 3' is pretty

far if you have to keep reaching in. It sucks actually and I learned the hard way. Nice plan and good use of space. But I would put scenery and buildings where the yards is and the yard to the bottom of where it is.

Also, I would take five scenes you love and write them down. then write down the next five and so-forth. Those scenes might be an ocean front, New England Mills, etc.  (If you want to model Horse Shoe Curve in O, then I would skip it and fit scenes into the room size that you love..) Then I would make 'blocks' or designs on paper the scenes you want to model in scale on paper and try to fit them into the room. I state this because if  you are modeling scenes you love and want to see, the model RR won't get stale. instead of modeling just some track plan to get trains running. A great modeling friend told me this after he saw my original design, of which he said it sucked and explained to me the above.. I always look forward to modeling on the RR. The other one was just there and I started to not work on it. So if you have something you want on it, the model RR is prone to become less stale and you will continue with it's growth.

Take care,

Good luck,
Dan 

PS, my original plan was a two track model RR fit into a 26'x52' room around the outside

walls.. I then scaled back and have a branch line RR with lots of sidings and industry.. It is excellent! 

Agree with the 3' distance 100%. I'm into G and had 3' on my last layout. It took some work but I ended up with a track plan that did not require me to reach the 3' when doing switching. Depending on how tall you are, 30" might be where you want to be.

   I notice this is "Modern Era" -- but is it a 'heritage' shortline, a 'new' [ spinoff ] shortline, a regional, or a Class 1 ?  The answer helps determine what your infrastructure will look like.   Also, where in general geographic terms is it [ other than someplace with coal mines...] ?

   Here's some thoughts -- of course that's all they are, my thoughts, and it's your railroad !

   1.  I think AGHR's point is well taken -- but I'd suggest doing away with the power plant* and interchanging the coal outbound, and empties inbound.  And you definately 'need' off-layout interchange somewhere.

   [* because it's 'the same' from a switching standpoint as the mine ]

   2.  Why does the mine have a tail track like that, that's about 38" long ?  Does the mine have its own switcher ?

   3.  I'd do away with the drop down runaround track and revise the portion of the layout right in front of the yard, now that you have a passing siding there, to add a 'third track' by extending the 'facing point' crossover to the left, where the other siding ends.  That drop down will be a pain in the layout.  Your inital layouts certainly did not make running frts CCW very easy.

   4.  Why not just extend the engine house tracks to the left to connect in with the yard lead ?  If this is modern era, would there be an engine house there at all ?  And modern day shortlines don't always site new construction eng houses at their yards.

Where are the locos serviced ?   Car shop there also ?

   4.  BXCX also has brought up a good point about "scenes", too.  I think I'd start with a clean sheet of paper and try some completely different locations for the different "areas" of this layout.  You might still come back to the original concept, but have come up with a revised way of doing one portion of it that you'll like.

Again, just my thoughts.

With best regards, SZ

PS  Make the key sections of the layout movable for those relocations that will probably be on your horizon.

A couple good articles to read can found in OST Magazine. The first one is in issue #48 Starting Over, Part 1 — Joe Giannovario.
This one talks about some design flaws and mistakes he once made.

The second article is in issue #55 A new look at O scale layout design - Brian Scace. This one talks about space problems and a design method to deal with it. His concepts are also written in A Guide to Modern O Scale.

http://www.oscalemag.com/vtoc.php

I would really ditch the second lift/swing piece. Having to move a bunch of stuff around to walk really gets old. It looks like there's plenty of room to shift the entire yard to the left, or change the angle at which it sticks into the aisle and get it all in there without needing that swing piece.

Ok so I am trying to take in as much of your constructive criticism as possible but it is a little challenging as there is a lot and it is hard to wade through all of it. Is there anything good about this layout design that I should keep? 

I know I want:

-Coal ops

-Power Plant

-Grainery

-Random Industry

-Staging/Interchange Yard

-Engine facility to display locos

-Switching and Continuous Run

I cannot:

-Use more space

-Go to a below the layout staging area 

Maybe I am trying to load 10 pounds of poo into a 5 pound bag but I love industrial city scenes and Appalachian RRing. This was my attempt to include everything I want..

Maybe Im nuts!

There is plenty that is good.  I would keep it all, but I would recommend taking the tracks from the engine house and connecting them to that lead....and dat's it...

I reworked the yard area and the industries I hope this is what you guys had in mind:

I see what you are saying! Good idea thanks!

I did not read all the posts, so forgive me for repeating something - I hope I am repeating something!

If your room is only ten feet wide, you will be restricted to very short diesels and 0-6-0s with that track plan.  Increase your minimum radius to 55", and you may be able to run a modified Pacific or Consolidation.

Best to put in an oval with no switches, get it running with the equipment you want, and then design yards and branch lines to fit the space you have left over.

If you are running insulated three rail equipment, then you can go with the tighter radius, but you will be sacrificing realism.

Opinion.

I only run diesels and only MTH at that. Their diesels are all rated for 36"radius curves.

I really like that latest version.  The only point of concern would be that the yard does not have any leads, so if you are doing some switching you will not be able to gain any headroom without fouling the main......but it really looks interesting and like a bunch of fun to operate.

Everybody does that at the beginning - normal.

A standard deviation unit or 2 off center of the sanity bell curve is also a pre-requisite,

Just keep going but take your time - just stand back and ponder how it'll all work a bit before making too many mistakes.

Austin Bill?

How long does your workbench stay that clean?

Hi Gents.

I'm A 3rs modeler now and a 2railer earlier. Go with the largest radius and turnout size you can fit. Make a yard lead longer than your longest yard storage track I own modern Iowa Interstate power and Grain Hoppers not to speak of the modern tank cars and boy do they eat up the space.

My layout is 11-1/2 X 19-1/2 by 2 feet wide with a yard 2 x 19 feet. O72 and O81 curves and #5 turnount using Atlas track. Scale wheels and Kadee couplers.

Will, I can appreciate your trying to build this your first 2 rail layout as good as you can, and also taking the feedback from several modelers in as well. 

I happen to believe in designing it yourself as you have initially done, afterall that's part of the fun frankly. Accept the errors you make as part of the learning curve, and go forward with changes you personally feel should be made. You will learn more this way in my opinion.

However If part of the fun for you is inviting others into the designing and building process, that that's fine too. Just don't feel you need to incorporate the ideas of others in your railroad...Make it what you want, it's yours!

Bob

Bob thank you very much for the encouragement! I have found that I keep modifying and making it better (I think!)...I guess I am just asking for anyone to spot obvious massive error.

Here is an update:

Looks awesome...I'd run with it.

Well, it's you that has to be happy with the results, not "us".  I have only one 'major' suggestion on the plan as it stands now:  I'd suggest making the crossover 'above' [ on the plan ] the mine face the other way -- that way the inside track can be used to park a complete train, possibly hidden by the tunnels / scenery;  this could also be your interchange tracks, etc.   Or keep the crossover as is and change the layout in the engine shop area -- it would be easier to 'hide' the track nearer the wall anyway;  in conjunction with this see 'c' below.

Other items:

 a) Typically the main / through line does not use the diverging route at a turnout, as in the upper right.  [ But I can think of examples, especially where shortlines / regionals are cobbled together, etc ].  If you do make the main diverging, make it a large #'d turnout, at least a #6 or better.

 b) Absolutely use the largest radii you can on the main line, as another poster suggested.  Your present fleet can take 36" radius, but you want to think about the future because you don't know what it might hold -- and few things are more difficult than rejuggling the layout for a larger minimum radius.  You can guess how I know that.....

 c) I think you went from 'not enough' through tracks in the yard to 'too many'.
Especially if you revise the track layout in the yard office - engine shop area, you could make two of those tracks stub ended and a little longer.  Two less turnouts to build / maintain + more car storage space.

  d) Given the track layout at the mine, either earlier or the current version, you'll need a loco there to run cars under the tipple.  If you put a short lead track between the mine turnouts and the main, then the mine could have its own switcher -- a good excuse to keep an older Alco or Baldwin that doesn't fit in with the rest of the C&W fleet.  Also, since the mine is in the hilly section [ east of Cambridge ] of the route, I'd undulate the main up there a bit -- where it goes through the town called "Untitled".  I could see this mine being fed from a conveyor over the main line, too, to reflect the cramped conditions in the valley.  [ But if you don't "see" that, that's OK ! ]

  e)  You do have access to both sides of the layout in the yard area, don't you ?  Do you envision most if not all of your turnouts being hand operated ground throws -- or a mix ?    Use hand held DCC for control of locos ?

I'd take your time with the planning process - it's not only fun, but you get to "game play" the layout as it evolves.  And nothing sez you can't revise something after you've built it -- there are very few model railroads that end up exactly as planned.  Even John Allen had to make changes to the G&D as he built and operated it.

With best rgds, SZ

What is the planned height of the plywood deck?

What length cars will you be using? tt

Tom I will make my layout at least 48" high...I am only 5'10" so I want it high but not too high ya know.

I mostly will be running coal so modern hoppers are 50' on average.

SZ,

Thank you for taking the time to write up all of this I really appreciate it.

I am going to continue to work on my design and make sure I have what I want before I get started. It is difficult to plan the perfect RR! 

Answers:

a) I will try to fit a 6 in there right now it is a 5 but I will see what I can do. I know my equipment has no trouble with #4s but the bigger the better.

b)Right now nothing is smaller than 36" with a lot of it being at least 40" I will see if I cant squeeze more out of it.

c)I like the idea of a couple stub ended tracks they are definitely easier! 

d)I had a tail track for the geep that will be there in my earlier designs but now I have a small engine storage track. I will try to make the lead longer or put in a tail. I like the idea of having the main weave through the mtns by Untitled good idea! And I was thinking  of that exact conveyor configuration! 

e)I do have access to both sides of the yard luckily! I will be using mainly caboose industries ground throws with tortoises on the main for a "dispatcher" to control from his desk. I like to have others to run the RR with. I find it boring to do alone at times. For loco control I use MTH and DCS.

thanks again a lot of great things to think about.

Will

Ok so I wasnt liking how the engine facilities didnt feel apart of the yard area so I changed that and made it so I have a long yard lead. This is fun! I feel like it gets better and better...I hope! Thanks again EVERYONE!!!

now that's what I'm talking about, everything looks like it belongs there.

Long Live The Lackawanna Railroad And Miss Phoebe Snow.

Willbacker,

One, if haven't seen it. But what's your name? Dan here. 

That is really nice layout plan. One more bit. "round' that sharp edge if you can?.. But other than that, the room flows nice and the walking area is also very neat and well put together. Just remember the 'reaching effect' and that you can get to those switches that are against the wall. 

Is this a branch RR? If so, like mine, the yard leeds on branch RR's are the main. Again, if your only going to run one train at a time, then there is no need for a yard leed. I know this goes against some of the comments on this post. The reason for yard leeds are so that the switching crews don't follow up the main lines. If your the only train on a branch, then there is no worry about 'following up the main' with the switching crew because the local or branch train is the switching crew. 

Also if you can, connect those yard tracks.. If will give you more operation pleasure. But maybe you have an idea where those switches would be were ripped up in a yard derailment some time ago and business in the area didn't warrant replacement? BTW, my yard is set up pretty similar and it works well. You did a good job with it. 

Do you have any water effects?

Take care and good luck. 

Dan

OK, here are some more '"thoughts":

1.  With the left side of the layout firmly established as the yard lead, it seems somewhat discongruous to have the Columbus yard lead in the 'mountains' of WV.  So how about this:  Move the industries along the right wall over to the left side -- they would sort of fit in with the Columbus suburbs too, with the Co-op a nice city - country transition

    Then move the mine over to the right, and perhaps [ though arranged in a more linear fashion -- we're in a valley here ] even along the right wall.  The lift bridge

now forms a nice scenic divider between the east and west ends of the rr -- at the east end the lift bridge is over the back channel of the Ohio to Wheeling Island.

    Now viewed from inside the room the flow is CW east to west, with no abrupt scenic breaks;  the top part of the layout is the transition from flat to hilly.

2.  I really liked the brewery in its previous location, between the power plant and the bridge -- it had a nice 'old, cramped, downtown' feel to it, and could really be a nice foreground model.

     The latest engine terminal mod is 'too complex';  to get to the pit, you can't have anything on the one track in the house.  Since you wanted an engine terminal to 'show off' locos, I'd move it back where it was, with the two house tracks outside long enough to act as the service tracks with the fuel/sand between them. [ Just put good derails between the pit and the eng house doors, for the safety of the guys inside from those hostlers who might momentarily forget which way is 'reverse'.]  Have a third track as your RIP track which could also store engines awaiting repairs, shop queens, etc . 

Again, just my thoughts. YTMV !

Best rgds, SZ

I'm not saying it is necessary but I would design the right half of the layout to (maybe) sometime in the future accept a second track.  In other words, use 40.5 inch radius on those two 90 degree mainline curves.

This allows for one train orbiting the outer main while still having yard and switching operations on the inner main. 

You can also set two trains running for those times when company wants to see 'em run.

Just a thought. 

Ok so after much deliberation and looking at your suggestions I came up with a double main. The layout is a foot wider then what I wanted but I think I can make it work.

SZ I agree I was sad about moving the Brewery so...I moved it back haha! I like that very industrial part of town. Jim thanks for pushing me to figure out the double main I think in the end it will be better!

Tom it is my home and I do own it but it is my first so I will still plan on moving things.

So here goes:

FYI the squiggly lines on the top and left are mock up MTNs

With the addition of the double main you now have switching leads for the yard in both directions.

Wow Will, what a great plan! That will take you some time to accomplish, something to look forward to.

-bruce

Will,

its been interesting to watch the evolution of your plan throughout this thread. I like where the design has arrived at. As others have said O scale eats up space pretty quickly. My only suggestion would be to create 'vingnettes' as you scenic the railroad. Having a train move from one scene to another as it proceeds. This can be accomplished by creating viewblocks of trees, buildings, mountains, etc. The end result will be the railroad appears to be longer than it is, as a train goes in and out of view.

Good luck.