wiring question dcs / variable track

John,

If I run a jumpers to the variable track input that would power the input side.

Correct.

If I wire the track leads to the center of a double pole double throw switch, and then run the dcs to one side of the dpdt switch, and the variable track output to the other side of the dpdt switch, then I think that will do it without frying anything or creating any type of feed back loop.  Can someone please confirm this for me?

That's not necessary. You just need to wire the output of the TIU's Variable Channel directly to the tracks.

When you want to operate your DCS engines in Command mode:

• Press TR
• Select Variable 1
• Roll the thumbwheel to 18 volts
• Press ENG
• Run your DCS engines.

When you want to run in conventional using non-DCS engines:

• Press TR
• Select Variable 1
• Use the thumbwheel to control voltage.

If you want to run conventional, including running your DCS engines as conventional engines:

• Press Menu/System/DCS Setup and press the AOF soft key to turn the DCS signal off for all channels
• Press TR
• Select Variable 1
• Use the thumbwheel to control voltage.

When you're done:

• Press TR
• Select Variable 1
• Roll the thumbwheel to 0 volts or press TVZ
• Press Menu/System/DCS Setup and press the AON soft key to turn the DCS signal back on for all channels.

This and a whole lot more is all in MTH’s “The DCS O Gauge Companion 2nd Edition", available for purchase as an eBook or a printed book at MTH's web store!

Wow - thanks Barry.

p.s. don't you sleep? 

John Z,

    This is one of the great things about DCS and the TR modes, of which there are actually 2, if you own the Z4K.  Sometime if you invest in one, there is another TR

mode that is operated with a side receiver on the Z4k transformer, opening up even more conventional engine running options, along with the TR mode Barry has just advised you how to use.  DCS can actually control both Conventional and remote control engines at the same time, even on the same track, if you understand how to

set things up.  DCS is a learning experience in itself, with both conventional and remote control operations from the same hand held remote.  Way cool stuff, once the owner understand how to operate it all the options, at the same time.

PCRR/Dave

John Z,

This was a great question, BUT.... WOW, that may have just changed how I wire my entire (future) layout.  I thought I had this down and ready to go, apparently I was wrong.  Glad you asked this.  My layout will be all DCS, but if I want to run conventional on any loop, I'd like to be able to.  Now I have to re-think this.

Mike, this pretty much just changed one of my fundamental thoughts on how it is done as well.  Plus, being able to run conventional on any loop, with the hand held remote, is great!  Right I just have two loops on a 4 x 8 sheet but plans for much more later as I learn more. I am looking forward to trying this out.

Dave, I knew there was a seperate way to do conventional running with a z4k, but I don't have one and will likely not be getting one any time soon.  I do however love that I can take the brick from a starter set and run the way Barry described!  Fortunately my starter sets were a little older so they came with 75 watt bricks instead of 50.  

Fyi - I made my own jumper to go from the barrel jack on the brick to the tiu.  All you need is a size M female barrel jack, got some fromthe local 'shack, two leads and a bit of solder.  The one I made myself was $3 or $4 total plus a little bit of time.

Thanks Barry, I'll print out your cheat seat so i can have it handy when i want to switch to conventional or turn off DCS signal which i already new. just was not sure how to control track voltage from remote, you mad it much clearer.

Thanks

Alan

Refining Barry's notes a tad, if you want to run non-DCS locos in conventional mode, like old Lionel, you don't have to bother turning off the DCS signal.  By leaving it on, you can also run a DCS loco in command mode, and a conventional loco, on the same loop.  But stay awake!

Okay I just played with this a bit. First off route the incoming power from the brick to both the fixed and variable input just like Barry said. I  tried to go just to the variable input and the remote kept saying out of rf range even though they were three feet apart.

I was running a williams geep, a lionel t-1, and a current starter set engine.  The cheap starter engine was hard to control because even at 5 volts it took off like shot.  The larger lionel t1 that needs more power to move was easier to control.  Overall its a neat feature but the thumb wheel is a little clumsy. 

Also I ran a ps3 engine as described without a problem.  I did have an issue with trying to get an engine out of the inactive list.  However now that I think about it, that engine has a bcr in it, so maybe I need to let it charge for a minute. I ran the power up to 18 volts, went to the engine list, and selected it from the inactive list.  Then I  tried to start it from the active list and it kept saying "engine not on track". I 'll try this one again later.  

Right now I am still thinking I will use a dpdt selector switch on the final layout, just to make the start up simpler and to have a way to kill track power without cycling the tiu.

jhz,

   Now you are starting to get it, and RJR is correct you can actually run both P2/P3 and conventional engines on the same track, at the same time once you understand how, and become quick enough to control both from the DCS hand held remote control.  Most people think this is pretty much a pain, so they seldom do it, however it can be done correctly.  I would run both my original Lionel Conventional 263E & my MTH P2 263E on the same 2nd level at the same time using the DCS hand held remote control, just to see it happen, now this is way cool stuff, to an old guy like me, I dreamed of being able to due this remote control stuff as a kid, now I can actually do it with my original Lionel Tin Plate and my Repro MTH Tin Plate also, on the same tracks.  Ya got to love this hobby.

PCRR/Dave

I  tried to go just to the variable input and the remote kept saying out of rf range even though they were three feet apart

That's because the TIU needs power for itself and it can only get that from the Aux. Power port or Fixed IN #1.

jhz, the starter engine takes off like a shot because the variable circuits, in reducing the voltage, drastically alter the AC wave form.  The alteration increases as the amount of reduction increases.  To minimize this, reduce the input voltage to the variables to the minimum you need to operate your DCS locos satisfactorily. 

As a note, this means that the voltage indicated on the remote will not be accurate, since that is calibrated for about 22 volts input.

Barry,

   As you taught me long ago the best way to power the TIU is thru the Aux port, I use the RS 18/24 power supply.  Barry I want to know if I used a wire slitter/adapter would the RS 18/24 power supply be powerful enough to power 2 or more TIU's at the same time, from a single RS power supply.  I have not tries this yet.

PCRR/Dave

Dave,

if I used a wire slitter/adapter would the RS 18/24 power supply be powerful enough to power 2 or more TIU's at the same time, from a single RS power supply

If you had no AIUs connected to any of the TIUs, you could possibly power more than one TIU with a single RS power supply.

Regardless, I wouldn't recommend doing so.

Barry,

   Please advise as to why you would not set up in this manner, is there an electrical problem with powering 2 TIU's off one RS power supply?  Or would this set up some kind of emergency shut down problem.

PCRR/Dave

Dave,

It's a matter of available amp supply.

The RS power supply is rated at 1.0 amp while the TIUs specifications call for 1.5 amps. The issue is that the 1.5 amp spec is for a TIU that has up to 5 AIUs connected to it. Each AIU gets its power from the same power supply as does the TIU itself. In this case, that would be the RS power supply.

The difficulty is in knowing exactly how much current (amps) the TIU itself requires. That answer would suggest how many TIUs could be powered from one RS supply simultaneously if there weren't any AIUs connected.

As will be pointed out in the 3rd edition of The DCS O Gauge Companion, I would not suggest using the RS supply to power any TIU to which AIUs are connected.

I use the R-S power supply for a TIU that has 3 AIUs connected, and have never had a problem.

I add that I do not have any ACC relays that would stay on.

Robert,

 and have never had a problem.

I'm very happy for you.

Try using the remote to turn on a Scene with 15 or 20 accessories at once and see if they all start working.

Barry,

   Thanks much for the info, and now that I do not use any AIU's any more for my switches, I do believe I can get away with powering dual TIU's from the one RS 18/24 power supply, if the emergency stop will carry thru both TIU's, when powered from the same RS power supply.  I did have to give up the scenes and the routes not having any AIU's, but on my smaller Christmas layouts I was will to eliminate them also.

Thanks again Barry I appreciate the education once again.

PCRR/Dave  

This is one of the most valuable and useful posts I have read in quite a while.  Using the instructions provided above, I am running two trains on the same track at the same time. 

Train #1 is a MTH PS 2.0 engine running in DCS mode

Train #2 is an Atlas AEM-7 conventional engine running of course... conventionally

Both trains are being controlled with the DCS remote.

Simply Awesome.

Thanks John Z for asking the question and Thanks to Barry for responding.

vr

Ron

Barry, I'm ecstatic that you're happy.  I don't use the scene feature; how many DCS users do? 

Due to the risk of pressing the on button rather than the intermittent button, I have not been using the accessory function.  Aside from the coal elevator and log loader, everything I have should be kept on only intermittently.  Since one should be near the CE & LL when they work, when I built my layout, long before DCS, I installed a control panel for them near their location.

Thanks Ron, but the real credit goes to Barry.  I haven't tried what you decribed yet myself as the loop I'm running is rather small.  I am glad this lets you do more with the trains you already have.

Robert,

My point, that you're choosing to altogether miss, is that DCS is a system where specifications are designed to allow all functions and features of the system to be utilized under any conditions. What you do under the limited conditions of your DCS system implementation should not, under any circumstances, be perceived by someone who doesn't know any better, as constituting any kind of a general standard.

The fact that you choose not to use a feature, which I and many others do regularly use, doesn't make your out-of-spec use of the RS power supply good for anyone other than you.

The standard is that the RS power supply's use is not recommended for any TIU that has attached AIUs, due to the fact that the power supply's available power doesn't meet the specs required to operate all of the system's features and functions.

On the other hand, it is not economical to acquire capacity totally unnecessary for a person's particular layout.  If Dave wires up one R-S power supply to run 2 TIUs and has no problem, he has hit upon the most economical solution. 

I note that you have been recommending the R-S power supply on the forum for many years, and I do not recall that, until recently, you have stated that it was not suitable for AIU-equipped TIUs.

Robert,

I note that you have been recommending the R-S power supply on the forum for many years, and I do not recall that, until recently, you have stated that it was not suitable for AIU-equipped TIUs.

That's correct. However, even I learn something new, occasionally.

Regardless, the RS supply is good for only a limited set of DCS implementations, and should not be construed as any kind of a "silver bullet" as regards providing TIU power.

The other misconception floating around is that the USB port on the Rev. L TIU is a good way to power the TIU. It is, but only for providing power for TIU and DCS Remote upgrades.

I learned through experience that there's a huge difference between powering the TIU via the Aux. Power port and the USB port.

While the Aux. Power port powers all of the DCS signal generators, the  USB port powers none of them. Therefore, USB power does not allow DCS sound file transfers, or DCS engine operation at all, except using Fixed #1, with track power coming in through the Fixed Channel #1 input.

Not having a Rev L (), USB port hasn't been an issue with me, but this is a point that Rev L users should be aware of.

That's correct. However, even I learn something new, occasionally.

As do we all. 

 

Regardless, the RS supply is good for only a limited set of DCS implementations, and should not be construed as any kind of a "silver bullet" as regards providing TIU power.

This is definitely something that should be borne in mind if a user is planning to have more than 1 or 2 AIU relays activated simultaneously.

On my work bench, where I use, at the most, one test track and 0 AIUs, or do some  upgrading, and at York Upgrade session, I use a 400ma 15 volt wall wart that originally was from a large cell phone.  It's adequate for that purpose and resonably portable, plus its jack fits the AUX port..

RJR,

   I have built my layouts using Barry's advise for many years, I wanted his technical input on running more than one TIU, Barry had advise me before that using AIU's with the RS Supply was pushing the limit of the RS power supply.  However I needed to know if there was any other electrical reason, such as an E-shut down problem, that would limit using the RS from functioning correctly, especially now that I have no AIU's.  Barry's experience on this stuff saves me a lot of time and frustration

when building layouts.  Your advise is also always welcome, and I appreciate it also.

With the RS company in trouble, I was going to save my other RS 18/24 power supply and simply use one to power both my TIU's if Barry thought it was safe to due so.

Some times I tend to push the envelope on some of these smaller power supplies.

We really do have some incredible engineering talent on the OGR, with guys like Barry, Bill (WillyGee), Guns and you also RJR, when you guys give advise I listen, it saves me a lot of wasted time, and my layouts run perfectly because of the combined knowledge.

PCRR/Dave

Dave, thanks for the kind words.  Barry & I sometimes disagree on details, but you will never get bad advice from him.

I'm sure R-S did not manufacture anything, which means that somewhere those power supplies are still available.  Googling will probably turn up a source, and it will probably be cheaper than R-S.  Also, there are many power supplies available from outfits like Digikey, Mouser, & Jameco.  Since the TIU is fairly flexible on input voltage to the AUX port, these possibilities are worth checking.  Without AIUs, I'm willing to bet that using one R-S will handle both TIUs.  There is a two-fold test:  (1) Does everything work?  (2) Dies the power supply transformer get too hot to the touch?

For the general benefit of forumites, I have heard that these plug-in wall warts are a frequent source of house fires.  I was in the Brunswick RR Museum once, and smelled hot rubber.  The attendant and I searched, and eventually found that the plug in for a telephone was red hot.

RJR

I see a VERY good point in there.

IF you smell something unusual when operating electrical products, or even in General;

FIND What IT Is.

Then determine if you need to fix, reroute, reconnect, or replace something.

PS

For Everyone !

I use a wall wart for my TIU power, but it's a bigger one, not from RS.

It's 15VAC 2Amp and I have run a TIU with 2 AIU's connected. Heaviest use was when switching the Wye's, that would switch (power on) as many as 4 of the relays at once. No problems there for me. But I doubt the RS unit would fare so well, Relay coils EAT current. This is made worse by being at the end of small wires in the cable to the TIU, that drops more power under load. Thus the reason not to use a AIU on a RS aux power  module. Current limit exceeded gives you a brown out on the TIU power, you lose control of the trains while it reboots!!! Think about it, does your computer come up instantly? No, neither does the TIU, tho it is much faster than a PC. Also, if the AIU Relays hang in the ON setting, the Brownout continues - Your Trains CRASH.

Russell: Absolutely correct on your initial observation.  Smell is what once led me to an uncoupling track, the button for which had stuck on and which was fast melting the track.

As I noted above, I run 3 AIUS from a TIU powered by an R-S unit, BUT, I have no accessories connected, which means only one switch relay will be triggered at a time.

I have no idea what the draw is on an AIU relay coil.  But speaking of AIU relays, I am in the process of replacing all of my old NJ International switch motors.  They make a really bad spark upon break.  I have them wired through the side contacts, so that the AIU relay points don't take the full brunt, but there's always one or two that don;t break properly.  I recommend never using AIU relays to directly control solenoid-activated switch machines.  Z-Stuff's DZ1000 draws under 0.1 amp, and breaks internally, so all 45 switches will shortly have them.

I would use the accessory terminals for uncoupling tracks, but sooner or later I'll hit the wrong button on the remote and they'll stay powered on.  I wish they could be set & locked .to either toggle-on-off or intermittent.

  This particular post is rich with qualified recommendations from regular DCS , Legacy and conventional) users. It is good to have a "core group" that is all about getting it right. Time to "save page as" and add to my trains file.

RJR,

   You can see why I like my FT CC switches so much, with what you are going thru with your switches.  The heck with the uncoupler track, I want more Legacy controlled rolling stock, the Legacy Crane Car is a good start.

willygee,

   Bill glad you joined in, how are things in the 2 rail world?  For you members who do not know, Bill has developed a sound system for his 2 rail engines that is just beyond belief, even over the phone Bills train room sounds like a real train yard in action.

If he ever makes it small enough to have in our O gauge stuff, it will change the entire O gauge sound world, into a reality train world, just because of the incredible realistic sounds.

PCRR/Dave

   Thanks dave...if anyone is ever in maine come have a listen..running as i post

Dave, you say "what I'm going through."  Some of these NJI switch machines must be 30 years old.  When I built current layout in 1992, I used them and then added DZ1000s.  As initially built and expanded as the layout "just grew," I used double throw momentary center off toggle switches for all switches.  Within last year I decided I really wanted position lights on the control panel.  Added bulbs to the circuits, and found that even 50ma incandescents adversely affected DZq000 switch movement.  Started to use LEDs, but that meant a lot more fine wires behind the panel.  Decided to go to all DZ1000 controllers except for the few NJI machines (too much load for the controllers).  Had ZStuff upgrade my pile of old controllers to the tactile version, and I'm installing them.  This doesn't affect their AIU connection.

I don't have any Legacy.  Have no interest in getting it.  All the underlayout wiring has been in for almost 25 years, and works, so there would be no advantage to going to electronic switches, and considerble cost--45 switches.

For you members who do not know, Bill has developed a sound system for his 2 rail engines that is just beyond belief, even over the phone Bills train room sounds like a real train yard in action.

If he ever makes it small enough to have in our O gauge stuff, it will change the entire O gauge sound world, into a reality train world, just because of the incredible realistic sounds.

If it fits in a 2 rail O Scale, why would he need to make it smaller to fit in a 3 rail O scale?  I've never seen a 2 rail O scale engine... is there a major space/size difference?

Ron

Video of MU with the fm transmitter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZ_WjCrtmgk

The 4th engine is the host engine for the sound system but because of interference noise issues i used a 2 wire shielded extension from the speaker leads of #4 engine to #5 engine which is unpowered and contains the fm transmitter and battery pack.