With MTH closing there will be a tremendous loss of variety (and MTH engines that we regret selling)

I had bought the MTH 30-2392-1 Redbird 4-car Subway Set and the two car add-on set. I kept the 4-car set but during a lean year or two I sold the add-on set as well as many uncataloged MTH Boxcars.

When I look on the the auction sites, I rarely see them, and when I do, the price is often 2 to 3 times what I paid.

"Unfortunately, Lionel seems to be in the business model of re-issuing the same engines again and again."

This also has been the business model of MTH for about a decade.  No one is doing much new tooling for whatever reason. But other than the 44 ton diesel, what has MTH done?  Lionel has done multiple examples of new tooling, although perhaps not anything you or I covet, but let's be fair. MTH has done next to nothing after many years of providing a lot of variety.  The hobby industry for three rail O isn't exactly in a growth phase.  Just like during the years 1969 through the 1990s, you're going to need to shop the used market for many things no longer available, and prices will be according to supply and demand.  That's reality as far as I can tell.

Disclaimer:

I am under 35 years of age and I know my opinions may differ from those who have been in the hobby who have “(object of your choice here) older than me” (On a sidenote when someone says that to me I HATE IT. Buy some new **** socks,  they don’t last that long and if you’re using a sock older than 35 years you’re gross! 

 Disclaimer over!

As someone who has been in the hobby for less than five years.  I am devastated at the closing of MTH . I currently have 7 new/modern engines a mix of steam diesel and electric. Only one is from Lionel, which I purchased on a whim. I was drawn to MTH over Lionel for the following reasons:

1. I put a great deal and effort into researching and studying the different control systems and I personally felt the MTH  System was the superior of the two . I work in IT in the system simply spoke to me. As Someone who grew up with computers and smart phones the math systems interface feels modern and makes logical sense to my mind. (I use the phone app, I  have no interest in a handheld remote)

In contrast the Lionel system feels extremely dated to me. It’s combination of serial cables and small jumper boxes. These blue Circuit board boxes, That have electric jumper inputs. It just seems like something from the 80s, It feels mechanical almost as if you need a degree in electrical engineering to understand it. Simply put it’s a turn off,  it looks complicated,  Therefore I will not investigate it further.  It looks dated, Therefore I will look for a system that is modern. 

 An axiom that wraps it all up!

“If you need to explain your user interface, you have already failed!”

2. In five years Lionel Has only released one engine that I have been truly excited about. Something that made me say I am going to pre-order that right now no matter what. The B&O em-1. And because I feel like Lionell is personally trying to insult me. In the catalog where it was Announced, the B&O version was not in center stage, but instead on the fold with a fantastic Scheme enlarged and in center! Total B.S.  (but back to my point, that has really ****ed me off for a long time) every MTH catalog had at least 2 or 3 things I just had to have. They seemed to release more interesting things and in a greater Variety of smaller and regional railroads. I don’t recall Lionel doing any thing in Canton, Maryland and Pennsylvania, or other similar lines. 

3. Packaging

This is something that in MTH gets so right, and Lionel the granddaddy, the one who has been around the block, the expert in the industry Utterly and completely fails at! 

I am going to type a single word: Purple

From that single word you know exactly what I am talking about! 

You see a purple box on the table and you KNOW, the item in that box is Beautifully crafted and SCALE. There is no question in your mind what is going to be inside of a yellow box versus a purple box. 

By contrast, there is an orange box well who knows! 

Why can’t they just print o gauge or scale one the label. 

The loss of MTH IS devastating to me, I think the industry is going to stagnate and get well boring, oh goodie another cartoon theme train set, I can’t wait for that Flintstones meet the Jetsons set! Can’t wait for another branded cash grab. Looking at you Scooby-Doo and Star Trek.

Simply put MTH is a model company that makes some toys.

Lionel is a toy company that makes some models. 

Lets all light a candle for 3’rd rail.

A few years ago, I decided it was time to thin the roster.  Too many engines.  Not enough room.  My first candidate for disposal was a Railking EL E8 unit that rarely saw any track time.  I got it out to take pictures, check the ODO / CHONO and run one last time.  That changed my mind.  It looks great and is probably my best sounding diesel.  Glad I kept it.  Since then, I got more room and more engines.  Haven’t sold any MTH engines so I have no regrets.

Missed the European steam engines first time offered, now looks like I missed out forever.

 I think some of you NAYsayers are discrediting Scott Mann and Sunset Models, GGD, and possibly Atlas O.  While a bit pricey in the eyes of many, Sunset Models GGD have brought in many "name trains" AND have detailed them as close to prototype as possible. I believe where there is a will, there is a way. If Sunset Models sees an opportunity and their minimum orders are met, they will build. Just look at the Amfleet/ Viewliners coming in O scale- And made of Quality Aluminum with Ball Bearings in the trucks!

https://lh3.googleusercontent....uvYCjFqTHtSg9fwcMndy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXLG9Gu--tk

https://www.google.com/url?sa=...6OoCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAO

You Don't hear too many failures of Sunset Model Locomotives- Have you? I havent.

And It maybe possible since Scott Mann deals with Chinese factories that he might be able to pick up some of those molds.

Another contender could be Atlas O. While lurking in the shadows of the O scale market, Atlas O might see the opportunity to rerelease some of their locomotives in more popular road names that their customers want.

But the BOTTOM LINE IS you want something new, DEMAND IT! Write letters to Atlas O, Lionel, and Sunset Models. Don't just "Sheeple" and give your wants on this forum thinking the MFG's will one day stumble upon your thread 50 pages back on this forum!

Ryan Kunkle of Lionel listened to my request for the Conrail New England Safety Caboose which is in the 2020 Pt2 catalog for preorder!

https://www.google.com/search?...imgrc=ZTkZ6gZzxYK-IM

https://mrmuffinstrains.com/products/l-2126250

“If you need to explain your user interface, you have already failed!”

Have you bought Barry's book(s)?  There aren't any for Legacy, TMCC or LionChief .  You got that off your chest.  Your reality does not conform to that of many others in the hobby.  Sorry.  As posted above, there is a lot more to the three rail hobby for most of us than just MTH.  Explore the other options and you may be surprised how much fun you could have.  Most of my recent purchases (last 10 years) are Lionel, Atlas (not much) and 3rd Rail.  I haven't felt a loss of variety of things to enjoy, speaking only personally.

Well, my comment about Lionel's business model of re-issuing again and again is the same model MTH has used...it wasn't meant as an insult to Lionel...I take it's a standard model of investment in design and castings, and then re-coup and gain via re-issuing again and again. However, I don't think that the modern Lionel (post 2000s) has come close to the variety MTH has put out. There's debate on quantity of offerings vs. quality, sound fidelity, scale details and accuracy (which both companies can claim victory on various models), etc., but I do believe I am correct on the variety for both semi-scale and scale models. I bet someone has an excel list comparing all the offerings in the last 20 years...perhaps they can chime in. As I tend to stick to eastern road-names, I can only cite first-hand the PRR boxcab models that I am familiar with.

We can probably all agree that through competition the consumer gets better products. The Reading T1 is a good example, and if memory serves, was MTH's first scale steamer that Mike Wolf made for Lionel way back when. Interestingly, MTH's newer cast model of the T1 ~ first issued around 2003 or so, is featured in their last catalog. It features smoking whistle, which is long overdue. However, to demonstrate my point, Lionel upped the ante a few years ago by making an even more accurate Reading T1 (fully rounded boiler - not the U-casting that so many modern scale and semi-scale die-cast steamers were designed with). But, MTH's model has a deck plate, whereas Lionel omitted that. To me, the fully rounded boiler is the deciding factor, and thus got my pre-order from the Lionel 2020 vol 1 catalog. If I can obtain the funds, I would buy an MTH T1, given its going to be one of their last scale steamers...and has the smoking whistle, as does of course the Lionel

Yet another happy topic... 

Mark in Oregon

I think sometime during the "explosion" of offerings started in the late 90's (remember the 3 catalogs per year craziness?  Or 6 for MTH since they did one for Premier and one for Railking back then), at some point each manufacturer left a few things off of their potential offerings realizing the other had a firm foothold. 

Just my guess there.  Examples: While both Lionel and MTH did Shays, only MTH did the Climax and only Lionel did the Heisler.  Two very unique mechanical designs that I would have to assume involved a lot of $$ to do the engineering to produce each.  Also, MTH definitely had the (mostly) cornered market on the subway set realm (and since Legacy did not include any functionality similar to MTH's Auto Mode for these, that would be a hard thing to compete with, even with the cool commandable opening doors ).  True Lionel did 3 subway sets, but they were very similar (if not identical) except for very small details (possibly the window shape on the end doors?).  For the most part the difference was the paint job.  Other than those 3 offerings, Lionel stayed away from that market.  Also the Triplex.  I'm sure the engineering to get that right was a bear.  MTH expended the effort, so it made sense for them to offer it a few times.  How much of a market is there for those that Lionel would also sell enough of them to make it worth it to put in the R&D $$ to pay for itself?

So my point is with MTH stepping out of the picture (unless something miraculous happens), possibly Lionel may look at such things differently in the future with no other large competitor to worry about.

-Dave

“If you need to explain your user interface, you have already failed!”

OH.  You mean the 300-page "companion"?

To answer the question:  I've had many MTH locs over the years and I have gradually sold off all of them.  The two that I regret selling (because I would / should have converted them to TMCC) are the original Cab-Forward and the Shay.

The Shay leaving the roster is probably the one that I regret the most.

There was life before MTH...there will be life after....

LOOKING FOR A MTH PREMIER BLUE GOOSE SET PS2 OR PS3 WITH 4 OR MORE CARS   ANYONE WHO HAS AND WOULD LIKE TO SELL E MAIL ME

ANDYRORO2007@LIVE.COM

I forget about the Premier PRR L5 ...yet another unique MTH model that nobody else has made. With the P5A, that's 6 PRR box-cabs...and I sold them all

From memory: Unique MTH scale PRR steamers: I-10 decapod; L-1 Mikado; H10; and A5.

One PRR steamer that Lionel made and MTH didn't was the CCII.

Thanks to Youtube and ToyTrains1 (Dave) who use to post on OGR frequently, we PRR boxcab electric fans can still see some of these neat trains in action. I haven't seen Dave post in some time...I hope he's doing okay. To me, these are some of the neatest toy trains ever made.

The "March" of PRR electrics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMcYkM0_Tn8

PRR L5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMcYkM0_Tn8

PRR FF2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMcYkM0_Tn8

I see Dave had another PRR electric that I never owned, the FF1.

BTW: the GG1 is shown in the first video...I haven't included it since its been done by every company I believe, and I had sold my MTH and Lionel versions. All of the above boxcab electrics pre-date the GG1.

Originally posted by Paul Kallus:

From memory: Unique MTH scale PRR steamers: I-10 decapod; L-1 Mikado; H10; and A5.

IDK what you mean by Unique. All those steamers were made previous in Brass O scale 3 rail from Williams and Weaver [Samhongsa] to 3rd Rail.

@peter allen 072518 posted:

As someone who has been in the hobby for less than five years.  I am devastated at the closing of MTH . I currently have 7 new/modern engines a mix of steam diesel and electric. Only one is from Lionel, which I purchased on a whim. I was drawn to MTH over Lionel for the following reasons:

1. I put a great deal and effort into researching and studying the different control systems and I personally felt the MTH  System was the superior of the two . I work in IT in the system simply spoke to me. As Someone who grew up with computers and smart phones the math systems interface feels modern and makes logical sense to my mind. (I use the phone app, I  have no interest in a handheld remote)

In contrast the Lionel system feels extremely dated to me. It’s combination of serial cables and small jumper boxes. These blue Circuit board boxes, That have electric jumper inputs. It just seems like something from the 80s, It feels mechanical almost as if you need a degree in electrical engineering to understand it. Simply put it’s a turn off,  it looks complicated,  Therefore I will not investigate it further.  It looks dated, Therefore I will look for a system that is modern. 

 An axiom that wraps it all up!

“If you need to explain your user interface, you have already failed!”

While I think both systems are actually pretty similar, I did find the early, PowerHouse, PowerMaster, and TrainMaster command base confusing.

 I didn't know what I needed and I find Lionel's website pretty uninformative.  Granted I was looking for products that have been eclipsed by Legacy and are no longer made. 

3. Packaging

This is something that in MTH gets so right, and Lionel the granddaddy, the one who has been around the block, the expert in the industry Utterly and completely fails at! 

I am going to type a single word: Purple

From that single word you know exactly what I am talking about! 

You see a purple box on the table and you KNOW, the item in that box is Beautifully crafted and SCALE. There is no question in your mind what is going to be inside of a yellow box versus a purple box. 

By contrast, there is an orange box well who knows! 

Why can’t they just print o gauge or scale one the label. 

100% totally agree.  

The loss of MTH IS devastating to me, I think the industry is going to stagnate and get well boring, oh goodie another cartoon theme train set, I can’t wait for that Flintstones meet the Jetsons set! Can’t wait for another branded cash grab. Looking at you Scooby-Doo and Star Trek.

Simply put MTH is a model company that makes some toys.

Lionel is a toy company that makes some models. 

Very well said.

While the fine aesthetes and artistes of the three rail O gauge world may find the Polar Express, Harry Potter, Area 51 and Scooby Doo sets beneath their contempt, these products have helped keep Lionel in business, unlike a certain competitor .  Unless one of you knows some love struck MTH fan who is also a venture capitalist, private equity maven or other white knight, you are apparently just going to have to live in our reality, whatever that turns out to be.  I have an Area 51 set with lighted track on order from the last catalog, truth be told.  I never claimed to have finely tuned artistic tendencies, and I guess this proves the point.

Everyone, let's try to keep the comparisons on an "even keel"

Some O-gaugers only buy one company's products and/or command system...nothing wrong with that...probably simpler to learn and operate via one system.

While I pretty much buy only O-scale trains from Lionel and MTH, I am a bona-fide toy train guy  I am so glad that the folks at Lionel went against the tide and made O-scale fantasy trains in the Polar Express, Milwaukee Road, Union Pacific, and other road-names with the Legacy system.

By the same token, I am grateful that the folks at MTH made unique scale European steamers and American steam and diesel-electric engines with DCS.

Undoubtedly, there's been a lot of money spent on tools and dyes, and perhaps, if demand is strong enough in future years, someone will re-issue all of the wonderful variety of models with one command system. Until then, we can hunt down older versions and/or lament on the models we parted with

Have faith my friends,  I'll bet you that the demise of MTH will go the same way as  "President Dewey's apparent election" in 1948. This book has more chapters to be written. I can't wait to see the next act.  Enjoy the ride!

I love most everything, evidenced by the fact that most of my life I have acquired 0 Gauge and 027 trains, initially as Christmas and birthday gifts as a child, and then purchasing them as an adult, and I have never sold, given away or thrown out any of them.

I love Postwar Lionel, and modern MTH, Lionel, Williams and K Line. 

When it comes to transformers, I prefer the Z4000 to run modern locomotives; and the ZW to run Postwar Lionel, and provide the power for all accessories and 022 switches. The Z4000 is just as good as the ZW to run Postwar Lionel.

Arnold

The MTH stuff I have consists of a few railroad cars. Their memory will live on in my rolling stock, because those don't tend to have a finite service life. RIP MTH 

So many "Firsts" brought to the O gauge market courtesy of MTH.

F7

GP7 (cannot count Lionel due to stamped handrails)

GP9 (cannot count Lionel due to stamped handrails)

GP20 (cannot count Lionel due to stamped handrails)

GP30

GP40

GP60M

SD9 (cannot count Lionel due to adding 6 axle trucks to a GP9)

SW1500

SD45 (Williams was non proportional)

FP45 (Williams was non proportional)

SD45T-2

C30-7

SD50

SD60

SD60M

SD70M

SD90Mac

Dash8

Dash9

AC4400CW

AC6000

U50C

U50D

DDA40X

89' Autocarriers

And many more

Or how about this... A list of (some) of the MTH only models. There's a bunch I'm missing but off the top of my head:

M1 Turbine

AC-6 Cab Forward

PRR Electrics (previously mentioned) 

PRR Q2 

GN S2 4-8-4 

C&O Greenbrier 

CNW E4

Santa Fe Hudsons (2900 class, 3460 class) 

NYC Mohawks (minus L3a and L2a) 

ANY Subway MTH made 

DDA40X 

U25B 

U30C 

U50C

UP Turbines (coal, propane, big blow, veranda) 

@Trainlover9943 posted:

Or how about this... A list of (some) of the MTH only models. There's a bunch I'm missing but off the top of my head:

M1 Turbine

AC-6 Cab Forward

PRR Electrics (previously mentioned) 

PRR Q2 

GN S2 4-8-4 

C&O Greenbrier 

CNW E4

Santa Fe Hudsons (2900 class, 3460 class) 

NYC Mohawks (minus L3a and L2a) 

ANY Subway MTH made 

DDA40X 

U25B 

U30C 

U50C

UP Turbines (coal, propane, big blow, veranda) 

 

3rd Rail, Weaver, and Williams brass all made several of those.  Plus I have a Lionel U30C. 

@CAPPilot posted:

3rd Rail, Weaver, and Williams brass all made several of those.  Plus I have a Lionel U30C. 

True. The point was though that there are a bunch of MTH only models. 

The only locomotives I regret having sold are the geared locomotives from MTH, Lionel, and K-Line. I had versions of all: Shays, Heislers, and Climax, Sold them for far less than I should have, and do regret not having kept all of them. I will be building a new layout after an upcoming move, and it will likely retain the U.S. Army Transportation Corps theme I stated with in my current home (I think I have just about every U.S. Army locomotive ever made by Lionel, MTH, and Weaver), but I also have a whole lot of Ohio Central motive power and a growing number of Union RR items, so anything is apt to happen.

Maybe a couple for me but I still have much of what I want or need. MTH trains have been an innovator in some technology and have tooled up for some models and accessories no other manufacturer thought about doing.  I hate to see MTH leave the building but I'm grateful for what they have done over the last 40 years.    It will be interesting to see what tooling may fall in the hands of another manufacturer for O,S,HO,standard and G gauge.  Time will tell.

Only one that comes to mind is the Ives Black Diamond. It’s not far from me, I could always steal it back.

Steve

My mother was right when she drilled into my brain when I was a child in the 1950s: "Never sell your Lionel trains."

The same is true for MTH trains that were not even a gleam in Mike Wolf's eye in the 1950s, to wit: "Never sell your MTH trains."

LOL, Arnold

MTH GP7 Erie with PS2.  First engine I bought when I got back into the hobby.  Wish I would have kept it for sentimental reasons if nothing else.

@Landsteiner posted:

  I have an Area 51 set with lighted track on order from the last catalog, truth be told.  I never claimed to have finely tuned artistic tendencies, and I guess this proves the point.

Funny...me too. And that set is so "not me." Not sure if it was the whimsy or the new lighted track or just the idea of FUN, but I pre-ordered the set and an add-on car.

Actually have an idea about doing a small "space-themed" layout with this set to kick it off. You never know what will sell.

Now, where's my Menard's flying saucer?

Over the years , MTH had produced at least 20 items that I had suggested ( and that they'll admit to). My only regret is that we ran out of time before we could get the TRANSYLVANIA GG1 and an OAHU railway boxcar.

It was a good run while it lasted.

Mahalo and Aloha

rat

I didn't initially mention it, but as I panned around the basement the other day I noticed that a great deal of the structures were by MTH Railking ~ about 75% of the total ~ they've made a very nice variety over the years...and some are very hard to find these days.

@Arnold D. Cribari posted:

My mother was right when she drilled into my brain when I was a child in the 1950s: "Never sell your Lionel trains."

The same is true for MTH trains that were not even a gleam in Mike Wolf's eye in the 1950s, to wit: "Never sell your MTH trains."

LOL, Arnold

 

I still have all mine. Never would consider selling them as they can't be replaced. Most of mine would be hard to find.

I have every model locomotive, mostly MTH Premier, that I have purchased since re-entering the hobby 23 years ago. I buy models because I like them and, for me, I continue to like them even if the details, sounds or control system are "improved" in a higher-priced rerun. Whether a model has the latest features is irrelevant to me. I still run some very nice PS1 engines that I have operated for more than twenty years with no repairs required. They have delivered my money's worth.

I do think MTH has been much more innovative than Lionel in offering locomotive models that have not previously been offered elsewhere. Too many to list here but, among the New Haven Railroad examples are the EP-3, EF-3, Fairbanks-Morse CPA-24-5, Alco DL-109, and scale-sized GE 44-ton diesel.

MELGAR

Melvin, I like your philosophy of keeping and running trains.

I sold all my PS1 and other non-command engines in the early 2000's. Most of them were traditional size. MTH re-issued all of them, I believe with PS2. My decision to sell at that time was due to going full command control (TMCC and DCS), moving towards scale trains, and aggravation of engines getting locked in neutral from drained battery.

Another category that MTH variety shined with numerous models were the die-cast streamliners from the 1930s. I recall seeing quite a lot of these in catalogs over the years.

I have seen the same over the years. same stuff over and over  Lionel went from premium vision line to junk. Hold on to what you have from both on the high end stuff and collectible sets.