Would it Safe/Proper to connect my MTH Remote Command Receiver to my CW-80 transformer?

Roger,

  I think you are asking same question you asked earlier today.  If you follow gunrunnerjohn's advice you should be fine.

but just to repeat,

Hook the remote commander receiver to the track, no input to the barrel jack side.

supply power to the track with the cw80, run the power to basically full so have something near 20 volts going to the track.

Then operate your engine with the remote commander handheld control.  This is using the remote commander in passive mode and should be work just fine.

Yes it is sort of the same question, but this specific part of it got lost in the thread and didn't get answered directly, and I have found that I get better info just to ask another specific question.

You said to plug nothing into the barrel end of the Remote Command Receiver, but it has to send the signal from the remote into the track, and how would that work with no power to the receiver?

Being new you may not have picked up on it yet, "The Gun Runner" is one of the top in-house "mad scientists" around here. He has more a Lionel focus than MTH, but its highly unlikely he has given you anything but the best of advice.

 Also remember, answers may take seconds, or days, but few ever go by without someone eventually helping.

I had one or two go a week, then take off with responses suddenly.

I'm posting here because I accidently closed the other.

If not mentioned,

If using two or more transformer together, you must have them phased correctly.

Have fun. 

No doubt about Gunrunner. I picked up on his expertise early on, and always look forward to reading his comments. I just wanted to ask the specific question regarding the compatibility of 750C and the CW-80 running together. That was the pointed issue that kind of got lost in the other thread.

In the so-called "passive mode", you only attach the red/blk banana output jacks of the DCSRC receiver to the track.  The track is powered by the CW in your example.   What's not obvious is the DCSRC receiver can receive its power from the output jacks - no power connection needed to the input barrel.

Depending on the specifics of your layout wiring there are 2 issues you may run into - or not.

1. The DCS signaling reliability may be slightly lower using the CW (set to full) vs. the MTH brick.  As discussed in the your other thread power supplies like the CW, even when set to full on, may not put out as clean a power signal as a plain vanilla AC brick transformer.

2. The DCS signaling reliability may be slightly lower in passive mode if the distance to the CW connection is very short. 

Again, you may not see any of these effects, but if you have problems you can hook it up as you originally proposed with the CW feeding the DCSRC, and then the DCSRC feeding the track.  As with the passive mode hookup, the DCSRC would be powered all the time, turning off-and-on every time you press the Direction button on the CW, etc.

OK, I tried it out.

I plugged the bananas into the CW-80, and the barrel into the Remote Commander receiver, then used the track power piece from the MTH set, with the leads and u clips, to hook onto the red and black posts from the receiver.

I fired it up and all seems to work very well. The only issue is that the MTH BNSF start up sound sequence will most always start up, but I believe I can shut it down again with the remote. However, it also did that when the CW-80 was hooked direct into the track without the Remote Commander receiver plugged in at all.

Again, I was under the impression that the remote loco shouldn't do anything without a track signal from the receiver.

At least I can run all with just the one transformer now, and that simplifies things a bit.

Roger

When power is initially applied to the DCSRC, it sends out a so-called "watchdog" signal for a few seconds.  Any MTH PS2/3 engine sees that signal and will start up quiet (no startup sounds) patiently waiting for the first DCS command which is typically the StartUp command. 

If the PS2/3 engine does NOT see that signal during the first few seconds of power, it plays the startup sounds and enters Conventional mode... and you can control it with the CW80.  So that explains why the startup sounds play with ONLY the CW80.

Here's one explanation for occasional startup sounds with the CW80 and the DCSRC.  If you slowly raise the voltage, the DCSRC may start (green LED turns on) before the MTH engine starts its program.  In this case the DCSRC would have sent out its "watchdog" signal pre-maturely because the engine was not listening.  So when the engine starts running, it missed the watchdog and thinks it's in Conventional mode and starts its sounds.

If this is what's happening you can try to raise the voltage more quickly to full throttle so that the DCSRC and the engine start running together.  Or, for experimentation, you can set the CW80 to full-throttle with the DCSRC disconnected...and then plug it in thereby insuring both DCSRC and engine simultaneously see full track voltage.

Or, like you say, if/when this happens you can ignore this watchdog stuff and simply send the Shutdown command using the remote to quiet the engine and move on with your life...

That is an awesome description of what is more than likely going on, and I thank you very much for taking the time to give such a clear explanation. I do know about the watchdog signal that is sent, but now I know a lot more about how it works, and what its purpose is.

I will try the things you suggested.

However, I am confused about one part of your explanation: You said that if the engine misses the watchdog signal, it will start up in conventional mode, so that it can be controlled by the CW-80. If that is true, then as soon as power is applied, wouldn't the engine take off down the track as will? It doesn't move. It just goes through the start up sequence and then sets right where it is supposed to.

Thanks again,

Roger

The engine would start in neutral, so it just sits there with the sounds active.  If you send a command, it should drop into command mode.

Thanks John,

Here is what thru me from the previous post, and I quote:

"If the PS2/3 engine does NOT see that signal during the first few seconds of power, it plays the startup sounds and enters Conventional mode... and you can control it with the CW80.  So that explains why the startup sounds play with ONLY the CW80."

What does that mean, exactly?

That's exactly as stated.  However, if you send some DCS commands to it, it'll respond.  I've had some that I had to do a shutdown first to get back into command mode.

So this part of the post "enters Conventional mode... and you can control it with the CW80.", doesn't mean conventional in the true sense of what we are referring to when speaking of conventional trains.

Is that correct?

If the PS2/3 engine misses the DCSRC watchdog and the startup sounds start playing, then it enters Conventional mode.  That means you control speed with the CW-80 throttle handle (i.e. by controlling the voltage), you switch direction by pressing the CW-80 Direction button, and you activate bell and whistle with the CW-80 Bell and Whistle buttons.  And you can activate additional MTH features using sequences of Bell and Whistle buttons such as firing the coupler.  If this is what you mean by "true sense" of Conventional then I'd say the answer is "yes".

As GRJ notes, if for whatever reason the PS2/3 engine missed the watchdog and started up in conventional with the DCSRC attached, send it a Shutdown command via the remote.  The engine will switch to DCS command mode.  Once you do this it is no longer in Conventional mode and it will ignore CW-80 conventional functions (speed, direction, bell, whistle).

You can use the engine without the DCS remote at all. If you want to just use the CW-80 you can use it just like a standard conventional engine. Not sure what you mean by "true sense".

Thank you for coming in and clarifying, and yes, that was exactly what I meant by the "true sense" of conventional mode.

The funny thing is, that when ever this has happened, I have gone ahead and run my Conventional Grand Central Express, in all directions, forward, neutral, reverse, using the CW-80 throttle lever, with the MTH BNSF never moving. It just sets there idling. If I use the remote in that state, everything works fine, just as it should.

This is why I question whether or not the DCS loco is truly in conventional mode. I will play around with it some more and post back what I find.

Thanks again,

Roger

The MTH loco will always start in neutral. If you want it to move you have to press the direction button. Also, with the CW-80 mine always works better with an additional load (caboose) on the track. Sorry if this is obvious.

If I understand your "funny thing", I may have an explanation for that though this may be in the too-much-information category

Note that every time you press the Direction button on your conventional engine, you cycle power off-then-on to the DCSRC receiver (i.e., you'll see its Green LED blink off and on).  Every time you turn on power to the DCSRC, it sends out that "magic" signal telling BNSF to go into DCS-command mode.  So even if your BNSF had been in conventional, you press the CW-80 Direction button to control your Express engine and BNSF switches over to command mode...so the BNSF was in Conventional until that first Direction button press when you told the Express to start moving.  Is your head spinning yet?

Stated differently you cannot operate the BNSF in conventional mode with the DCSRC on the track since it would be put into command mode on each Direction button press.

Now if you are amused by funny things, on a rainy day with nothing better to do, try operating your Express in conventional and your BNSF in command mode at the same time using their respective controls.  You have to think it through about the various restrictions/limitations, but as I said if it's raining outside and you have nothing better to do...

I will have to read this thru a few times to get it, but I need to state that my CW-80 does not have a directional button. This conventional GCE loco starts in forward when I lift the throttle lever. When I put the lever down, and back up again, it goes into neutral, and the next time the lever is pushed down and back up again, it goes into reverse, and so on.

The point is that whenever this conventional loco goes to neutral, reverse, neutral, forward, etc.... there is a cot off of power to the track.

The Direction button cuts power to the track as long as you hold down the button.  So it's effectively doing exactly what you're doing when you pull the lever down and then back up again.

As you've probably discovered there's a power cut-off time window to sequence thru N-F-N-R.  A brief cut-off (say, less than a second) could be dirty-track or going over a switch so you'd want to ignore that.  An overly long cut-off (say, many seconds) probably means you were done for the day, or the engine de-railed, etc.  And the next time power is applied it starts in the so-called "Neutral-before-Forward" condition.

Since you are presently exercising austerity measures wrt new purchases, I was pondering how you might get additional "play value" with what you have.  I'm not clear on if you switch power on/off to your "blocked siding" when switching between engines but I figure there might be some value in having both engines operating at the same time even if one is just idling which for the BNSF should have lights and sounds.

All very good points Stan.

I tried the process when I got home from work today, and it seems that the BNSF does not start up unless I have power to the blocked track and the GSE starts up. Yes I have the conventional GSE on a power blocked track. Then once the BNSF does start up, it will not shut down when told to by the remote.

Oh well, it was worth a shot since it required no direct out-of-pocket! 

There are some inter-operability issues that are tedious.  For example, it is known that electronics in non-PS2/3 engines powered on the same track can affect/degrade the DCS command signal.  You may have read about installing a 22 uH choke/inductor to demote this effect.  So like peeling layers of an onion, probably the only certainty is you will start crying as you dig deeper

As the song goes,

You've got to know when to hold 'em, Know when to fold 'em
Know when to walk away, Know when to run

On the bright side I'd say your original issue has been resolved!

Huh?  Sure it does!  The button on the left marked DIRECTION.

What are you talking about?  I don't see a Direction button...

50,000 comedians out of work, and he's trying to be funny!

Maybe that's the model that RWL has.

Oh THAT Button,

OK, now you’re just trying to make me feel stupid, and boy did it worked.

I was given to understand that lifting the lever started the loco in forward, putting it down and lifting it again put in it neutral, down and up again put it in reverse, and this is all true.

I honestly do not know how that button escaped my attention, other than I must be completely blind or stupid, or it could be OPD (Old Peoples Disease), but I am leaning toward blind or stupid, maybe both.

Sometimes I can have such a one tracked mind that I totally miss the forest because I am focusing so dog-on much on one single stupid tree.

I stand humbly corrected sirs……………….. and very sorry for the confusion.

Roger

Not a problem Roger, that makes up for the times I make similar stupid pronouncements here.  Nobody is immune.

Oh I am not crying about this at all. I am having way too much fun with these trains, especially on my new 4.5ft X 8 Ft temporary/beginner layout, and I hope to post a pic of it soon.

So then, short of shelling out the $400 for a DCS system and Z1000 power supply, is there another best way to run Conventional and DCS locos on the same track with the same power supply? Given, of course, that the conventional is parked on a power blocked siding when not in use.

How about this possibility:

I could buy an MTH 750C controller (this is the controller used in the Z-1000 combo) for about $45. I am thinking that I could then use 750C with my Z-500 power brick as follows:

1) Z-500 Power Supply plugged into 750C Controller

2) 750C Controller plugged into Remote Command Receiver

3) Remote Command Receiver plugged into track

This is exactly how my CW-80 is hooked up now other than that it is the power supply and controller all in one, so that there are only 2 components rather than 3.

Would this work any better with the MTH DCS BNSF than the CW-80, or
would the same issues still exist?

So just to be clear.  You have CW-80 -> DCSRC -> track -> switched-siding.  That is, there is a block off the main track that you can switch off.

In your first comment, it appears that you have DCSRC control of the BNSF with the GCE on the track.

In the second comment, it appears you can only control the BNSF if power is applied to the switched-siding with the GCE.  That is, if the GCE is absent, you cannot control the BNSF with the DCSRC when using the CW-80 set to full-throttle. 

Is this an accurate summary?

That said, what I'd do is disconnect the CW-80 from the DSCRC and plug in your MTH brick and see if you still need the GCE powered up for the BNSF to work.  So first switch off the siding with the GCE.  Apply brick power to the BNSF.  See if the remote works.  Then throw the switch to power the siding - the GCE should start up in Neutral (note there's 18V on the siding so don't quickly toggle power on-off-on or the GCE will take off in Forward).

This is just a learning exercise than anything else.

The Z-750 output at full-throttle will not be as "clean" as with just the bare MTH brick.  I'd think the quality of the power signal would be similar to that of the CW-80 at full throttle and hence behave similarly wrt DCS signaling.  That's my opinion.

I'd put the $45 in a piggy-bank and save up for a DCS-TIU.

Perhaps inconvenient, but if you need to use the bare-brick to reliably operate the BNSF, you can just swap barrel connectors going in to the DCSRC when you switch engines.  I don't think it wise to keep the GCE powered at full-voltage in neutral just to allow the BNSF to operate via remote; a brief power interruption for whatever reason would sequence it to Forward and it would take off like a rocket.

No I didn't mean to convey that the BNSF wouldn't run until the GCE was fired up, but rather that it doesn't start its start up sounds, on its own with out being told to, until then, and that it won't shut them down either when it is told to.

It will run fine with the GCE parked and the power blocked.