WRT Std Gauge set

Williams shipped many (most?) of their 408's with no motors - just dummy blocks holding the wheels.  Some owners later put Lionel or McCoy motors in them. The best was a motor unit Williams themselves later sold: the size of a Lionel build-a-loco motor, but which had 2 powerful DC can motors, one geared to each axle; very powerful unit. The loco you are looking at may have any of these motors in it... or it is quite likely it has no motors, only the dummy blocks.  This is something you will want to find out before you get too far along on this.  The 408's sold without the motors also did not have the added lead weights that make the 408 such a good puller, something you may also have to add.

Williams trains are collector's items in their own right now, since they are some 40 or so years old and were not made in great numbers.  To my mind in terms of collector value they are therefore worth more than a comparable new MTH set.  Ironically, you will probably pay the same or maybe less for the Williams.

david

Bruce,

I have an MIB MTH Apple Green 408e w/traditional motor and a 418 four car MTH passenger set that I'm wanting to sell.  Email me if interested.

Sunrise

3K for the Williams set on E-Bay is way to high.

The seller says it is new. Most likely does not have motors.

I once saw a Williams 9E with the can motor. It looked rather crudely done compared to a MTH.

A brand new LCT is about $350 per car street price and roughly $800 for the PS-3 408E.

My two Williams sets are the 9E with four 418-series cars; and a 408 Silver Jubilee special with the four 418 cars.  When I bought them they were somewhat under $1000 a set.  But I was hesitant about quoting price as Bruce specified he is looking at the State cars and I do not have first hand knowledge of Williams State sets.

I have bought and installed about 7 of the Williams dual can motor units at this point and I have to say there is no more dependable or powerful Standard Gauge motor out there, it is my motor of choice for re-powering anything Standard Gauge that needs to be able to pull.  I would not say they are crude.  They are simple: each motor has a worm gear on the motor shaft, directly driving the axle below it.  That's it: no other gears, no electronics.  I combine them with a Williams Reversing board for $35 and have very sweet, smooth, dependable and super strong operation.

d

The one I saw the wiring looked like a salad. Maybe it was just the person who installed them. I do recall 2 motors in a 9E. It is good to hear they run very well.

Here is a Lionel Classic set on E-Bay. I searched the seller has the 408 listed also.

Pretty fair price and open to best offer. Lionel Classics sell for a premium over MTH.

Dave thanks for the heads up on the Williams runnability.  

Arno may chime in here, but according to the Greenberg book on Williams, there were less than 200 of the brown state sets made, in the 1970's.  It amazes me that a Williams set in top condition does not regularly sell for as much as a new MTH or "Lionel Classics" set, mass-produced by the thousands in China. And the Williams is a more accurate reproduction, with better fit and finish. (The same is also true of RichArt or Varney & Sirus reproductions of Ives trains.)  Go figure.

d

First, thanks to all of you for the informative responses.  I'm better prepared to go into the deal armed with your knowledge.

My first duty is to find out what powers the 408E and get a better look at the entire set.  They sit high on a shelf in the sellers home and I just didn't feel comfortable asking to see them close up if I had no intention on purchasing. 

Coincidentally, the seller also has a Williams 9E in orange, which he pulled down for me to look at.  It is powered by an ancient SG motor...off hand, it was way earlier than a Bild-A-Loco.  When all you're used to is tiny #8's, the 9E is monsterous compared to the other boxcabs.  Still, I must stay focused...I have nothing in large, classic period SG rolling stock to mate with the 9E.

David,

I'm hoping the 408E has those dual can motors you mention.  I figure the set will get some use every Christmas so it would be nice having something reliable to pull with.  It also intrigues me that these had such limited production... all the more desirable in my eyes.  They probably won't depreciate much if I buy them too.  If all goes as planned I might own them for less than half the price of those modern LCT offerings quoted earlier.

Bruce

Bruce, if the 408 does not have motors in it, don't despair: it is not at all difficult to install a couple of motors and wire up the headlights.  Just figure that into your price.   Lionel motors for the 408 need a "hanger bracket" in the top of the motor frame, which makes them just a little bit different from the usual B-A-L motor. Vintage ones can be found, or you should be able to buy new ones from MTH parts for about $200 each.

RideTheRails: Like so many things in the tinplate world, if you are interested in the Williams Standard Gauge motor unit, you just have to keep your eyes open, know what you're looking for, and pounce when one shows up.  I have bought them off eBay and off tables at train shows.  They are often mislabelled, the owner has no idea what it is.

Here is the page from the Greenberg book on Williams trains, so you know what to look for (click to enlarge):

The Williams unit is the only one that looks like this.  The MTH ProtoDrive is only a single can motor.

The book was written in 1987 and is out of date: this motor unit is no longer made and is not sold by MTH.

Note that the motors are DC, so the center rail rollers need to be connected to a bridge rectifier. The units initially came with the rectifier wired in (that's it hanging between the two motors), but sometimes along the way they have been removed. Be sure the one you buy is complete: I bought one that is useless, as the gears on the axles had been removed and I have not been able to find anything to match.

As is, the Williams motor has no reverse capability.  As I said, I use a Williams reversing board (available from train dealers like Train World). This gives smooth, dependable forward-neutral-reverse-neutral sequencing.  Since the Williams reversing board has a bridge rectifier built into it, you would remove the one that comes with the motor.

david

Bruce,

Your quest for a State Set is honorable. One thing you need to realize is, whether you are looking at the Williams, MTH or Lionel Classics version, these are still reproductions. The downfall of most reproductions is the fact that they do not hold their value and they are never worth what they sold for when new. As much as many people would like to dispute that, it's hard to avoid the facts.

If you look at any recent auction results, you will see the Williams 408 4-car brown State Set has sold from $600-$800.... yes, a 4-car State set with the locomotive. The Williams sets are not as shiny as other repros, their paint is slightly subdued... which in turn makes them look a little more natural.

The Lionel Classic sets seem to hold a little more value. The same set would sell for a coupe hundred dollars more. They are well made and very true to the originals.

There are many version of the State sets out there, give it a little time and you will find one at a price you can live with.

Hope this helps,

ARNO

Thanks ARNO,  every little bit of info only further confirmed I was making a good deal.

So, to follow up, here's the set.  Sorry about the bad pics...I'll try getting better ones in the daylight.

Inside there are 2 super motors with a PW E unit.  New wheels all 'round and new roller pickup assembly to the right.  All the wheels (cars to )do not appear to have had much time on the rails.  I can't be sure how they are mounted to the shell but for now it's unimportant.  They seem to pivot and swing easily.  Is it hot in here or is it just me?

Bruce

Ain't Standard gauge trains purty !!  Love mine(originals)  but I need a motor for one. Hope to find one at the TCA show.

WOW!  Well done Bruce, that's a beautiful set!  A great opportunity to own a really landmark set, and IMO Williams is the way to go. Because of their relative age and scarcity, I think the future will see these trains be valued as the collectors' pieces they are.  And the two nicely cleaned and ready to run Super Motors are a bonus.  You're gonna enjoy the heck out of that train.

david 

After years of admiring from afar, this is a milestone for me.  Any representation of Lionel's finest would have sufficed, but the combination of price and condition on this particular set seemed as good as it got.  Next milestone will be a Brass #7...once I convince the boss it's an absolute necessity.

Dang right, they're purdy, Jim.  That has always been the attraction to SG for me...even the less flamboyant examples in drab colors.  They ARE the toy trains of toy trains.

ARNO,

  I pulled up the green 408E currently on eBay and see what you mean about the dull finish on what I suspect is an early production Williams.  Maybe they changed that with the later production of the State set...mine is nice and shiny as you can see.

David,

  Of course, I couldn't just wipe off the 408 and place it on display.  I ran it this afternoon and it motors along smooth and true.  Been cleaning the tarnished trim while I become fully acquainted.  There are some small chips and light scratching but far less than I expected for 35 -40 years existence.  

Bruce

Bruce,

Very nice set! Congratulations! 

Along with the Blue Comet set, this is iconic Lionel, beautiful, great find.  Didn't Mike Wolf himself start out assembling these for Jerry Willimas back in the day?  Take a look, maybe there is "M W" scratched in the metal under the hood.  

Thanks Henry.  Judging by the non existent wear on the wheels and rollers, it's kind of a shame nobody enjoyed operating the set previously.  I hope to remedy that issue come this Christmas.

James, no MW initials found yet...not even on a washroom wall.

Bruce

Here's a few more shots for comparison purposes.  To keep the Williams State set up and out of the way, I rearranged some shelves and placed it along side my original Baby State set.  I was dying to compare color matches.  Williams sure nailed it!

Bruce

Bruce,

Congratulations on the beautiful set!!! I bought an LCT contemporary 408e earlier this year, as I had always wanted one and got it for a price in the Mohave that I just could not resist. I later added the passenger cars but did not get the state cars, as they were just out of the budget.

So, I checked with Side Track hobbies as he had one set left of the matching 418 series cars, so I picked them up.

The state cars would have been nice, but have been really happy with my set. Most guys do not like the sounds in tinplate, however it is very easy to turn off and run silent. Williams made some really nice stuff. Someday I would like to add one of their pieces to my collection.

JoeG