York dealer and manufacturer question

@WaynePa posted:

...I know that Charlie Ro, TrainWorld and Island trains will not be there ...

Where did you see this information?

I thought all of that sort of info was on the EDTCA website??

Charlie Ro and Island Trains announced that they would no longer be at York along with Mianne Benchwork.  TrainWorld has not formally announced.

A lot of dealers have been unhappy especially with the dealer halls open late on Friday and Saturday.  It’s just gotten too expensive for them.  The manufacturers have expressed the same thing.  

At the last York there was a whole row of tables in the Orange hall empty.  Same thing in the member halls.  I’m talking about Thursday and Friday,  not Saturday when most members pack up early.

Think about it.  Many manufacturers and dealers have a number of people working the booth.  If the average cost of a room and meals is $200, and that is conservative,  if you have four people working that’s $800 per day.

How many people does Lionel have working their booth.  Until they had the LCCA people giving out catalogs as volunteers, as far as I know, they had upwards of eight people working their booth.  That’s $1600 per day at a minimum.

With MTH seemingly successful with both their custom runs and their uncataloged offerings why do they even need to be there.

Also, attendance has been down the past several years.  An indication was how easy it was to park.

Now with the Yellow hall for both dealers and members, how will that work out.

I would say right now its to early to tell. A lot of dealers may have paid for tables, but depending on the COVID out look, they probably  won't make up their mind till closer York.

@WaynePa posted:

It’s just gotten too expensive for them.  The manufacturers have expressed the same thing.  

The head of a major O-Gauge product company, that many people here know, told me that the York show was one of his worst in terms of sales/profits. He does better at other large train shows where the public can attend. He's complained to TCA leadership about a number of issues to no avail.

@Bruce Brown, either your information is very old, incomplete, or transformed in a game of telephone. The public has been invited and allowed to visit manufacturer & retailer booths at York for a number of years.

@bmoran4 posted:

The public has been invited and allowed to visit manufacturer & retailer booths at York for a number of years.

I think the context of the comment to me is that the other train shows are widely advertised to the public and have large attendance.  Whatever the case may be,  the comment to me was two years ago.  It would be interesting to know what percentage of attendees on Friday are actually non-TCA members

@WaynePa posted:

Charlie Ro and Island Trains announced that they would no longer be at York along with Mianne Benchwork.  TrainWorld has not formally announced.

...

Links to these announcements?

I checked Ro's and Mianne's websites and found no mention, and looked at Mianne's facebook page - nothing posted.  Also checked TW's facebook page, but you mentioned that they haven't made announcement yet.

I agree with your observations regarding the cost vs. profit of setting up at York.  However, I tend to look at it as more of a "trade show" kind of presence - a chance to meet one's remote customers in person.

Not trying to be argumentative - just want to separate fact from rumor. 

I agree with Mallard4468. It’s more of a trade show for Lionel and the big dealers. They can meet their customers and generate good will which in turn will add up to sales later on in the year. But I could the wrong. That’s just how I thought it was.

I was just at Nicholas Smith last week and I was told they, along with Charles Ro, would not be there since there wouldn't be any MTH or Lionel presence--so, they opted out.  I'm obviously not officially confirming one way or the other, just passing along what I was told a week ago. The mention of Lionel not participating was something of a shocker...

Wow! That stinks.

Perhaps the dealers that do show up will do good business?

Crazy thought on my part! Call the dealer and ask if they will be there!!

@Tom weaver posted:

Crazy thought on my part! Call the dealer and ask if they will be there!!

My thoughts exactly. I plan on calling Ro, TW, and Lionel on Monday to see what they say/reason. I will also call the EDTCA and see what they say as well. If what is being discussed is true, then I can foresee this being an interesting show. 

Lionel skipped a show in 2018 or 2019, so that’s nothing new.

@Bruce Brown posted:

It would be interesting to know what percentage of attendees on Friday are actually non-TCA members

From Clem's York Primer, the last York where public numbers were reported separately was the April '19 meet.  At that meet the totals were:  8447 TCA and 332 public.  So the public only accounted for a little less than 4% of the attendees.  This percentage is about the same for previous Yorks except the first time the public could attend which was around 5.5%.

Interestingly, for the April '18 meet, they broke down the numbers further, and approximately 10% of the public attendees ended up joining or signing up for a 6 month trial membership.

Andy

From a purely business point of view, York has not been a “good” show to attend for several years. It’s only  promoted to a very small audience, and it’s not an attractive or interesting show for the general public. It has become more of a social event as opposed to an event that makes any business sense.

OGR will not be there.

Sounds like the manufacturers don’t care for live advertising to the mid Atlantic, East coast O gauge crowd. Other than the little shows at Timonium, which I stopped going to because there is very little O gauge there, York was our way to see actual stock. We have no train stores to visit without traveling a couple hours to get to. Quite frankly, I’m disappointed, apparently all the folks I went to see, and buy from aren’t coming? Well if the attitude of MTH, OGAUGE magazine, Train World Nicholas Smith is so poor towards us, then we should just stop doing business with them!

Wow I am kind of disappointed.  It sounds like York is on the decline.   For Lionel to not show (since they aren't there to sell things directly but just showcase their product line) really says something.  With Covid they have not had a show in a while so seems like they would want to attend.

I am not sure the TCA is living in 2021.

In its day it was great to have a club only meet, but times change.

Why not just make it a non membership meet, open to all, on every day.  And then advertise the heck out of it like they do all the other big shows.

That could bring it back to life.

I was excited to finally get back to a York Meet on October, but with the big players gone, I wonder how many smaller players will skip it too, since it probably is even more financially difficult for them than the big players.

TCA needs to wake up!

Quite possibly, the decision for a business not to attend is driven more by Covid rather than any disdain for the membership or financial concern. An employee would need to be out on the floor talking face-to-face, through a mask, with literally hundreds of people. Some workers may not feel safe doing this. Some companies may also be hedging their bets that the show will not be held at all.

Hi All Lionel has told me that they will be at YORK in Oct. in their usual corner.

If the show is not cancelled.

They also plan to have a special VERY LIMITED York train boxcar.

The LCCA will be there also in our ORANGE HALL BOOTH. Lets hope for the best and see you there.

SAL GAMBINO/PRESIDENT LCCA.

@Jim M Sr posted:

Well if the attitude of MTH, OGAUGE magazine, Train World Nicholas Smith is so poor towards us, then we should just stop doing business with them!

Jim,

Good idea.

Just stop doing business with all the major players in our hobby -- that will send the whole lot of them a message they can't ignore.

Your proposal might work if we had a robust market with many competitive suppliers (think consumer products, or automotive).  Unfortunately our market is no longer as deeply robust as it was 20 years ago, and worse yet there are far fewer suppliers today then there were back then as well.

If we hurt them hard now they'll just be forced to close up shop because of the resulting lack of income.

How can we help?  How about cooperating a little bit instead?

1.) Grow the market -- Make it robust again by bringing in new consumers.  This is what EDTCA needs to do at York, and all of us need to support throughout the hobby.  Welcome people with open arms -- no grouchiness, no elitist attitudes.  Substitute smiles for frowns.  (Before you tell me that there are no possibilities here just look at how Thomas, Polar Express, Harry Potter, NKP 765, and UP 4014, among many others, have generated interest in previously-uninterested folks; and how train shows, prior to the pandemic, still had many families with young kids attending.)

2.) Encourage more competition -- New entrants (suppliers) bring new ideas, new ventures, and new opportunities.  Our hobby has a big shortage of all of these currently.  Who wants to start a new business, or perhaps take over an established one currently owned by a soon-to-be retiree?   Step forward -- we need you now.

This hobby needs support, not anger.  It's not in any current danger of collapsing, just slowly fading away if we do nothing.   It's our hobby. We need to support it.

M.H.M.

I have been reading all this and still have everything ready to go,but I am still not made the decision to go. I know Brennan’s Better Ballast and Model Building Services will not be there. There are many (rumors) that others will not attend and with the rising New Covid count in the country and Pennsylvania is one of the so called hot spots I’m not so sure it will be worth the expense of the trip I will have to make. It’s going to be interesting.

I do know that Just Trains will be there (from the owners' mouths to my ears last week at the Edison show).   Perhaps those that do attend will have record sales in the absence of others?  Personally, if York went back to it's roots as a member's only meet (sans manufacturers) it's still a better experience than 99% of the other meets/shows available.

-Greg

I wonder how much dumping of merchandise will be going on? I expect a lot. I wouldn't want to be sitting on a ton of inventory. Once things improve, then you could restock.

Question for Rich Melvin, are you saying that after covid is under control and things are back to old normal, OGR will not return? Thank you Dave

@Sean's Train Depot posted:

Why not just make it a non membership meet, open to all, on every day.  And then advertise the heck out of it like they do all the other big shows.

That could bring it back to life.

The reason only the dealer halls are open to the public and the member halls are not is that dealer hall vendors have to have a PA tax ID number and must collect and remit PA sales tax, while vendors in the member halls do not, as transactions there are considered private member-to-member transactions.  If you open member halls to the public, then a great many vendors there will stop coming (as vendors) rather than have to deal with the tax issue.  If that happens, York will collapse into a small regional meet, and will no longer attract people from across the country, let alone around the world.

Add to that the fact that a great many people admittedly only belong to the TCA in order to be able to go to York, and if membership is no longer required, then the TCA loses a lot of membership.

I agree that more can be done in the realm of advertising, but anyone who has been in the hobby any amount of time already knows about York, so advertising there is preaching to the choir.  Ads in the cities close to York might attract some curious about the hobby, but how far will people travel for mere curiosity?  A better approach might be to reach out to big market TV/Cable news stations and offer up York as a potential human interest story.  Of course, if they show up only to film a half empty Orange Hall, then that won't work, either.

Andy

@Rich Melvin posted:

OGR will not be there.

Just curious, but will there be an OGR Forum Meeting? And if yes, who will host it?

@Andy Hummell posted:

The reason only the dealer halls are open to the public and the member halls are not is that dealer hall vendors have to have a PA tax ID number and must collect and remit PA sales tax, while vendors in the member halls do not, as transactions there are considered private member-to-member transactions.  If you open member halls to the public, then a great many vendors there will stop coming (as vendors) rather than have to deal with the tax issue.  If that happens, York will collapse into a small regional meet, and will no longer attract people from across the country, let alone around the world.

Add to that the fact that a great many people admittedly only belong to the TCA in order to be able to go to York, and if membership is no longer required, then the TCA loses a lot of membership.

I agree that more can be done in the realm of advertising, but anyone who has been in the hobby any amount of time already knows about York, so advertising there is preaching to the choir.  Ads in the cities close to York might attract some curious about the hobby, but how far will people travel for mere curiosity?  A better approach might be to reach out to big market TV/Cable news stations and offer up York as a potential human interest story.  Of course, if they show up only to film a half empty Orange Hall, then that won't work, either.

Andy

I respectfully disagree on the tax issue to the public. I’ve been to multiple public shows in PA where no tax is collected by members or dealers. Was just at one in PA yesterday and no one charged sales tax. I can buy a $2K engine out of state and ship to me in PA tax free, but if I buy it from that same dealer at York I have to pay sales tax? IMO one more reason why dealers are likely staying home to focus on online sales. I love York but wish the TCA would look for a work around on this issue.

I sold trains at a train show only once and it wasn't at York. It was many years ago at a train show in NJ. I was given the paperwork to collect sales Tax by the guy who ran the show. It was up to me to fill it out and I guess hold on to it until income tax time. I never filled it out though because of two reasons. One I wasn't a regular dealer meaning I didn't sell trains on a regular basis and two I felt it was unfair that I should have to pay sales tax on stuff that I paid sales tax when I bought it and nothing I sold that day got sold at a price higher than the original price.

"I can buy a $2K engine out of state and ship to me in PA tax free" True for the most part but not if it is on the bay!

Quite frankly, I’m disappointed, apparently all the folks I went to see, and buy from aren’t coming? Well if the attitude of MTH, OGAUGE magazine, Train World Nicholas Smith is so poor towards us, then we should just stop doing business with them!

OTOH, in l-o-n-g run, we want those folks to stay in business for the betterment of the hobby and our market.

Ergo, there probably are other reasons for their not coming...besides the perception of being punitive to the individual  After all, as much as they've cultivated personal relationships among the York attendees through the 'good' years, and I'm sure they'd like to talk trains, pains, .and...for the Fred/Henri crowd...rains, the business considerations can outweigh the emotions.

It's expensive.  Costs of distance are variable, of course, but hardly insignificant.  Then there are the hotels, meals, fees, etc., etc., all of which go on the expenses side of the business ledger.   Items such as lingering health concerns for attending representatives is not typically a ledger item, but it carries a lot of weight in these times.

And the offsetting payoff for this one show for those who've chosen to pass?  Measurable?  Hardly a blip on the positive side of the ledger for some, inadequate for others.

Being a business on which others rely, its success MUST consider the business perspective.   They're not non-profit.  They're not inherently, necessarily altruistic.  If they thought their absence from this particular show would destroy their market acceptance, they probably had a rather thin grasp on their business in the first place.

I, for one, am in this hobby 'til death do us part.  I'm dismayed when a declining number of supporting companies hang it up...for even the best of reasons...like retirement after a long positive contribution.  Moreso, however, I'm gratified to see sound business effort and direction being applied by our suppliers.   I support their decision...period.

KD

@Jim M Sr posted:

Well if the attitude of MTH, OGAUGE magazine, Train World Nicholas Smith is so poor towards us, then we should just stop doing business with them!

Jim, you are taking this personally when it has nothing to do with personal issues! This is a business decision for all the companies involved here, pure and simple.

Whether you want to accept it or not, York has changed over the last several years. The attendees are growing older (me included) and the EDTCA is not doing anything to attract new and younger members. The meet has become more of a fun-filled social gathering for old friends as opposed to a meet where a lot of dollars are spent on model train items.

No business can afford to attend a show/meet like this without some return on the investment. Even a small company like OGR used to incur costs that almost reached FIVE FIGURES to attend this meet! I cannot imagine how much money larger companies must spend to attend York.

No company can continue to invest that kind of money without some return on the investment. The York meet has failed to deliver on that return for many years.

Well, OGR needs to update the “ware are you” contest post.

Well Rich, I’ll agree, things have changed over the last few years. Businesses are more take it or leave it, then wonder why customers are complaining. Geez, if it’s inconvenient for them to market their goods, to reach out to the customers, the they can stay home. I am taking it personally. If as a business you don’t want to reach out to the customer, then fine. I can do business with someone else.

it’s their money to decide how to market themselves to the customer, just like it’s my money to spend with the business that appreciates my business. Hello when I come in the door, have a good day when I leave goes a long way. The do it my way or get out attitude doesn’t cut it with us “old folks” who still have money to spend, and we’re cantankerous enough to say we still expect service as a customer.

Just a bit of a correction to what Rich Melvin posted:

OGR WILL be represented at the York Meet by me, Ed Boyle, and Dave Minarik. We will not have a booth at the October event, but we ARE still planning our "Wear are You" contest that should be of interest to every OGR supporter attending since EVERYONE who enters will be a winner.

That said, those are our current plans, but all need to be aware that those plans are contingent on the York Meet being held, and with a minimum of restrictions.

Pre-covid, one of my more gratifying experiences was attending a Greenberg train show at the Dulles Expo Center outside Washington DC. It was heavily advertised in The Post and in social media. This was the first time in many years I attended a non-TCA event. Driving to Expo I figured that parking would be no problem since kids and families are not that much into trains these days. Whoa!!!  Was I wrong!!!  Despite a huge lot, it was packed. I finally found a spot at a nearby Walmart. But catching my immediate attention, as I approached the building, were the families walking in with young children. Inside was also packed. Seeing all the kids made me feel so good and proud of our hobby.  All gauges were there including some vendors we see at York. I never asked them about their sales vis-a-vis York, nor the gauge people were buying. But I did see many people walk out with bags of goodies.

Regarding York, I attend York primarily as a 1) social experience, 2) place to find repair parts, 3) find some unique item/product I didn't know I needed, and 4) pick up a car to complete or augment a collection. When I was in the formative years of building my train layout, I was spending $1000++ at each York on scenery, track and trains. Now that my layout and train collections are mature, I don't spend that much at York any longer. Nowadays, if I spend kilo-buck(s) on an engine, it is usually by internet pre-orders where I don't need to give the vendor any cash or credit upfront. Maybe people like me are one small reason York vendors are not doing so well.

@Sean's Train Depot posted:

Wow I am kind of disappointed.  It sounds like York is on the decline.   For Lionel to not show (since they aren't there to sell things directly but just showcase their product line) really says something.  With Covid they have not had a show in a while so seems like they would want to attend.

I am not sure the TCA is living in 2021.

In its day it was great to have a club only meet, but times change.

Why not just make it a non membership meet, open to all, on every day.  And then advertise the heck out of it like they do all the other big shows.

That could bring it back to life.

I was excited to finally get back to a York Meet on October, but with the big players gone, I wonder how many smaller players will skip it too, since it probably is even more financially difficult for them than the big players.

TCA needs to wake up!

While I understand your reasoning, making York all-public would likely kill it.  Many years ago (mid 80s, IIRC), the PA tax authorities wanted to require all participants to report and collect sales tax; the paperwork and hassle would have driven the member tableholders away.  ED worked out an agreement where the meet would be for members only, and commercial dealers would be the only ones required to collect sales tax.  ED has been understandably reluctant to reopen that can of worms. 

Please note that I am neither a PA resident or a tax expert, so I don't know the extent to which this situation applies (or not) to other train meets within the state. 

@jim sutter posted:

I wonder how much dumping of merchandise will be going on? I expect a lot. I wouldn't want to be sitting on a ton of inventory. Once things improve, then you could restock.

Although I like looking for closeouts, I suspect that there won't be a lot of that going on this time.  Between the wider usage of the BTO business model, production/supply/shipping issues, and the buying frenzy that has occurred during the pandemic, I don't think there's a lot of stuff that dealers are willing to sell at deep discounts right now.

Lionel did not attend the April, 2019, York Meet.  At the time, the company stated that they would only attend October Meets.  Whether Lionel is changing plans - or not - I do not know.  But, I would expect to see them at the October, 2021, Meet, if held.

If my memory is correct, the Charlie Ro company did not attend the October, 2019, Meet as there were internal issues.  I've been told that Nassau Hobbies will be at York this October ... and I'm sorry to miss Charlie and Chris since I'm not attending.

I'm a window shopping kind of guy.  I go to York in hopes of finding items I am looking for or to discover items I didn't know I needed.  It's also a place to discover new products or products I didn't know existed.  Sellers can profit from me on immediate sales or future sales as a result of their York advertising presence.

Sellers know how much they take in at York but they didn't know the valve of their advertising presence.  The Covid hiatus has provided the sellers with the advertising data point.  We may be seeing the result of this added business knowledge..