The York meet has always been a place where I can find stuff that doesn’t show up anywhere else.  I go to the local shows around St Louis, but it’s more to support the clubs because I rarely find anything I am interested in. When I go to York I fill a full size SUV up and only stop buying because I run out of room.  There are dealers and private sellers holding things under the table for me because they think it might be something I will be interested in and they are usually right.  I am sad that there are some dealers and manufacturers that will not be showing up but I have made the decision to no longer support those dealers through out the rest of the year.  I will make the trek to York mask or no mask, meet with old friends and make some new ones.  

@shorling posted:

I'm a window shopping kind of guy.  I go to York in hopes of finding items I am looking for or to discover items I didn't know I needed.  It's also a place to discover new products or products I didn't know existed.  Sellers can profit from me on immediate sales or future sales as a result of their York advertising presence.

Sellers know how much they take in at York but they didn't know the valve of their advertising presence.  The Covid hiatus has provided the sellers with the advertising data point.  We may be seeing the result of this added business knowledge..

These are excellent points, however the pandemic has also probably increased spending on hobbies since people were stuck at home. So the exact benefit, detriment, or wash they've seen may incalcalalable. 

Some of the discussion here reminds me of trade show discussions at my last job. The cost of the booth, space, and travel was $200k per show. We didn’t sell anything at the show and the feeling was always that we didn’t do any additional business because of the show. So not going was tempting. BUT the feeling was if we didn’t go it was perceived as giving customers and the market the finger, damaging relationships and subsequently loosing sales. Thats along the lines of what it feels like here for dealers or manufacturers who have decided not to go…

With that said, I like the OGR approach. They may not have a booth but they’re still going and engaging with customers.

@Keith k posted:

I am sad that there are some dealers and manufacturers that will not be showing up but I have made the decision to no longer support those dealers through out the rest of the year.  I will make the trek to York mask or no mask, meet with old friends and make some new ones.  

I think I may follow your lead on this one. IF the York meet is held as planned, I will pledge to only buy from dealers that make an appearance if they have the item in stock that I want, until the next York is held.  I will also only place preorders with them.

I think it's fair to limit this to dealers in a 500 mile radius.

@Rich Melvin posted:

No business can afford to attend a show/meet like this without some return on the investment. Even a small company like OGR used to incur costs that almost reached FIVE FIGURES to attend this meet! I cannot imagine how much money larger companies must spend to attend York.

I have no idea what a vendor booth costs at York in the manufacturers/dealers hall. But I have done a lot of business travel for work over the years, and I've spent two weeks in a hotel with a rental car in Europe for about two grand.  Five figures for a few days in York seems excessive.

Edit: I just checked and a 20x20 table in the Orange Hall is $600 and a 30x30 in the Purple Hall is $995.

@Rich Melvin posted:

From a purely business point of view, York has not been a “good” show to attend for several years. It’s only  promoted to a very small audience, and it’s not an attractive or interesting show for the general public. It has become more of a social event as opposed to an event that makes any business sense.

OGR will not be there.

Isn't that small audience toy and model train lovers?  Isn't that the same audience that OGR has?  With all of the cash spent there it is a lot more than a social event.

No specialized show would be very attractive or interesting to the general public. Perhaps Eastern should consider putting all of the layouts in one building that is open to the general public? That might spark an interest in the hobby and entice them to join the TCA to see what wares are for sale in the other halls.

I'm guessing that not all 9,000 attendees are already subscribers to OGR (but they should be IMHO), and I'm guessing that not all of them are familiar with OGR buildings, fronts, etc. so I'm assuming that there would be some subscriber and product sales opportunities there. A presence might also remind lapsed subscribers to order again, or to renew. I would also guess that someone introducing attendees to your digital subscriptions would be a good thing.

I'm sure I'm missing something in your explanation, Rich. Can you elaborate for me?

OGR not being there is a shame - I was looking forward to meeting Alan and the OGR staff

Oh no... now we’re going to have a loyalty test???

Disclaimer: I plan on attending October York on Thursday only, I have a ticket, a hotel reservation for Wednesday night, and crossed fingers!!!

For the last few years I was working, I was an Evil Budget Ogre for one of the largest Insurance Companies in the U.S. - I was involved in more cost cutting exercises than I can remember. As Rich pointed out (correctly, IMHO), you can’t keep doing things that give you no return on the money you are expending. Things which show no ROI were the first things on the chopping block in every exercise. That being said, I find it interesting that the large vendors who may not be doing York are also the vendors that are regularly touted on this forum as having the best prices, which suggests that they do everything they can to keep costs low, and consequently allow those lower prices. Although my main bad influence is Grzyboski’s (which is a short drive away for me), I have also used Nicholas Smith, Ro, and Trainworld and I will continue to support them as well as OGR and the TCA (with or without York). Rant over

Wow.  The vitriol in these responses over the probable absence of several manufacturers and retailers in the upcoming York meet has given me plenty to think about in continuing my membership in TCA.  I'm appalled at the 'my way or the highway' attitudes I'm reading.   Not a lot of concern for a differing perspective, rationalization.  Seeing a lot of this in more and more of what I read/hear every day. 

I think it's time to return to the basement, be happy/blessed for what I have, and pray that someday soon we'll be more interested and accepting in the struggles of others.

Y'all have a...whatever...time at York.

I'm done.

@Lionelski posted:

Isn't that small audience toy and model train lovers?  Isn't that the same audience that OGR has?  With all of the cash spent there it is a lot more than a social event.

No specialized show would be very attractive or interesting to the general public. Perhaps Eastern should consider putting all of the layouts in one building that is open to the general public? That might spark an interest in the hobby and entice them to join the TCA to see what wares are for sale in the other halls.

I'm guessing that not all 9,000 attendees are already subscribers to OGR (but they should be IMHO), and I'm guessing that not all of them are familiar with OGR buildings, fronts, etc. so I'm assuming that there would be some subscriber and product sales opportunities there. A presence might also remind lapsed subscribers to order again, or to renew. I would also guess that someone introducing attendees to your digital subscriptions would be a good thing.

I'm sure I'm missing something in your explanation, Rich. Can you elaborate for me?

OGR not being there is a shame - I was looking forward to meeting Alan and the GR staff

OGR will be there ... read Allan Miller's post on page one of this thread.  

OGR will not have any retail sales presence, in other words their booth will be empty.    A few of the staff will be walking around looking for subscribers who are wearing clothing with their logo on it. I believe that’s what Rich meant.

I wonder if Classic Toy Trains will have a booth ?

That is great news Patrick, I was reacting to the earlier post that I saw and quoted in mine. I've since seen Keith's clarification.

I'm hoping to see Allen, Ed and Dave and thanking them for OGR's support of our hobby

@dkdkrd posted:

Wow.  The vitriol in these responses over the probable absence of several manufacturers and retailers in the upcoming York meet has given me plenty to think about in continuing my membership in TCA.  I'm appalled at the 'my way or the highway' attitudes I'm reading.   Not a lot of concern for a differing perspective, rationalization.  Seeing a lot of this in more and more of what I read/hear every day.

I think it's time to return to the basement, be happy/blessed for what I have, and pray that someday soon we'll be more interested and accepting in the struggles of others.

Y'all have a...whatever...time at York.

I'm done.

After reading your post and further consideration, maybe you are right.  I still sort of feel if the health officials in PA and the leadership of the EDTCA feel it's safe enough to hold the event, manufacturers and mega-dealers should be there.

Put it this way, in a normal (non-pandemic) year I do agree with @EricTrainMan that skipping the show is sort of like giving customers and the industry the bird.  However, this year with as much push back as there is on certain infectious disease prevention measures, I guess it's understandable if companies and dealers don't attend. 

I don't know what the long term trend with York will be, but I will caution people it is hard given we are still in the middle of a mess with Covid to say how this year bodes for the future of the show and the hobby. Unfortunately this is not happening in a "normal" time, there is a lot of uncertainty out there and in the face of that manufacturers and others may not go to York (same with possible attendees) this year because of the cost and not knowing what will happen. If the show gets cancelled dealers could end up with non refundable travel costs and lodging, for example, so it is understandable if they aren't attending. Businesses from further away would have more of this, but it is still a concern. 

I can see where there are long term worries with York, the market has shrunk with the MTH situation, a lot of things to be concerned about but I think trying to project based on a show that is happening in (at best) unique circumstances, where we don't even know what late October will bring, after a year and a half of cancelled shows is like trying to predict a trend based on one data point, you can't really do it. If April comes around, things are in some sort of normal state, with less ambiguity, and you see a lot of dealers and such not going, then that is the time to look at things.

The sales tax issue is interesting, in most states with sales tax they don't distinguish between private sales and commercial sales (for example, if you sell a car to someone, they are required to pay sales tax on the purchase price before registering it, at least in the states I am familiar with). Obviously it is very difficult, unless it is something that is registered or whatnot, to enforce that. One way around the dilemma with sales tax would be to get PA to allow sales to non tca members in what is now the member only halls, states will make exemptions if there are other benefits to the group selling stuff (for example, ED could point out how many people go to the show, economic boost to the area with people coming there, hotels, restaurants, etc) and get an exemption (whether PA would do that I don't know).

As far as why companies go to trade shows and the like, it isn't just sales made at the show. Trade shows are also like advertising, you spend a good deal of money then you spend time trying to figure out if it really did anything (it is why when you buy something and register it for the warranty, they ask things like "how did you find out about this product".). And yes, there is such a thing as goodwill as well, depending on the kind of trade show having a presence says a company wants to meet/show people what is going on. The problems with straight ROI is that it often ignores things like goodwill and the like, it is based on the idea that if you go someplace, you better show immediate ROI (it is why companies don't do basic research or anything that isn't direct "product", has no immediate ROI). On the other hand, adding all that up, it may just not be worth the cost.

OGR for example gets its revenue from subscriptions and also from the gear it sells, and if they spend X to go to York and they don't see any uptick in subscriptions or buying their stuff, if it seems like they will do the same going or not going, they won't have a formal presence and it makes sense. In theory it would be great if they went and people saw their booth and said "wow, I should get me a subscription to that", but I doubt it.

On the other hand I think other companies, especially Lionel, would be foolish not to go when times return to normal. Because there are people there from the outside, because they are trying (I hope) to grow the hobby, then it makes sense to be there; both to attract new people and also, yes, get face time with their customer base (whether MTH will ever do this again, IDK, there new business model is such that it is hard to tell).

Should we boycott companies that don't go? I understand the feeling, but to me that likely won't be effective and honestly, also leaves out that businesses make decisions based on their underlying model. In this case I wouldn't take it personally, realize that sometimes it is just business. Not saying people shouldn't put their $$$ where they want, that is their ultimate right, just saying this isn't something that needs a boycott to 'punish them' *shrug*

@bigkid posted:

in part:

Should we boycott companies that don't go?

No

@Rich Melvin posted:

From a purely business point of view, York has not been a “good” show to attend for several years. It’s only  promoted to a very small audience, and it’s not an attractive or interesting show for the general public. It has become more of a social event as opposed to an event that makes any business sense.

OGR will not be there.

OK, let me clarify the post that Rich made.  First, the York show is not a profit making venture for OGR and hasn't been for a long time.  There was a time that OGR came home from York with some money in the bank but no more.  It costs us just under $10,000 per year to attend both shows!

Let me explain Rich's last statement.  From the traditional aspect, OGR is changing its presence.  OGR will be at the fall York if we have one but only from the aspect of supporting the show itself.  We will buy one booth but it will be unmanned and will have a sign on it explaining what we are doing at that show. OGR associates Allan Miller, Ed Boyle, and David Minarik will be there at different times of the week as part of our "Wear Are You" contest which is explained in detail in the featured topics and in the next issue of the magazine.  We want to support York as much as we can afford to and have chosen to do it this way.

The reply by @bigkid is thoughtful and thorough.  The only thing I can add is that my experience is that occasional sales between private individuals are rarely subject to sales tax - one exception being automobiles, and in that case the tax is collected by the state when the registration is transferred.  As long as the seller isn't doing it as a business (generally based on the frequency and volume of their sales), it's no harm no foul.  This would seem to apply to most folks at train meets.  Apparently, the state and local authorities viewed the York meet differently (perhaps due to its size, IDK) and EDTCA feels like it's not worth the risk to try and revisit that compromise.

On another note, does anyone have reliable information regarding whether or not Scenic Express will be there?  I looked on their website - they don't list any shows for 2021, and it says that they are moving operations and inventory to Colorado.  They have always had a large presence at York and seem to do a lot of business; it would be a shame if they aren't going to go anymore. 

@OGR CEO-PUBLISHER posted:

OK, let me clarify the post that Rich made.  First, the York show is not a profit making venture for OGR and hasn't been for a long time.  There was a time that OGR came home from York with some money in the bank but no more.  It costs us just under $10,000 per year to attend both shows!

Let me explain Rich's last statement.  From the traditional aspect, OGR is changing its presence.  OGR will be at the fall York if we have one but only from the aspect of supporting the show itself.  We will buy one booth but it will be unmanned and will have a sign on it explaining what we are doing at that show. OGR associates Allan Miller, Ed Boyle, and David Minarik will be there at different times of the week as part of our "Wear Are You" contest which is explained in detail in the featured topics and in the next issue of the magazine.  We want to support York as much as we can afford to and have chosen to do it this way.

Thanks for the clarification.  IMO, supporting the meet by having one booth makes me feel a lot better about OGR's approach.

@Mallard4468 posted:

The reply by @bigkid is thoughtful and thorough.  The only thing I can add is that my experience is that occasional sales between private individuals are rarely subject to sales tax - one exception being automobiles, and in that case the tax is collected by the state when the registration is transferred.  As long as the seller isn't doing it as a business (generally based on the frequency and volume of their sales), it's no harm no foul.  This would seem to apply to most folks at train meets.  Apparently, the state and local authorities viewed the York meet differently (perhaps due to its size, IDK) and EDTCA feels like it's not worth the risk to try and revisit that compromise.

On another note, does anyone have reliable information regarding whether or not Scenic Express will be there?  I looked on their website - they don't list any shows for 2021, and it says that they are moving operations and inventory to Colorado.  They have always had a large presence at York and seem to do a lot of business; it would be a shame if they aren't going to go anymore.

Could always give them a call. 

With their move to Colorado and the current environment I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't go this year, but I expect they'd attend in the future as you're correct, their cash register always seems to be ringing at their booth. 

-Greg

@Greg Houser posted:

Could always give them a call. 

With their move to Colorado and the current environment I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't go this year, but I expect they'd attend in the future as you're correct, their cash register always seems to be ringing at their booth. 

-Greg

Not an issue for this time, but I'll call them when I get to the point of buying a lot of scenic materials.  The goalposts on that seem to be constantly moving...

In general, I'm hoping that a lot of individual decisions by vendors don't add up to causing a critical mass of members to decide that York isn't worth the effort.

Train "stuff" aside, if you have developed friendships with others in the hobby who you regularly meet at York, or hope to make some new friends, you really can't go wrong by attending the York Meet. This October meet, in particular, will be the ideal opportunity to escape from real-world concerns and demands for a few days, and just spend some time seeing trains, talking trains, buying/selling trains, and just putting your focus back on what is surely the world's most diverse and creative hobby. Plan to take advantage of the opportunity if you possibly can.

Isn't most of the expenses for a vendor to be at York a write off?  While I understand the costs, and maybe even with a possible tax write off doesn't make sense, seems to me a smaller but still booth presence could be preserved.  While we all know about "wearing the OGR" promotion for lack of a better word, those who are new to the hobby wouldn't other than passing the sign at the booth.  They don't know the players like Alan and Dave. 

Just asking about how do you reach out to potential new customers whether the limited public or 1st timers if you don't have at least one person as a booth attendant?

Curious more than anything.

@Allan Miller posted:

Train "stuff" aside," if you have developed friendships with others in the hobby who you regularly meet at York, or hope to make some new friends, you really can't go wrong by attending the York Meet. This October meet, in particular, will be the ideal opportunity to escape from real-world concerns and demands for a few days, and just spend some time seeing trains, talking trains, buying/selling trains, and just putting your focus back on what is surely the world's most diverse and creative hobby. Plan to take advantage of the opportunity if you possibly can.

Ding! Ding! Ding! - We have a Winnah!

You captured the York meet perfectly, Allen

I wish that there was an algorithm on the Forum that would strip posts that include the word "Covid". It is even starting to popup in this thread.

@MartyE posted:

Isn't most of the expenses for a vendor to be at York a write off?  While I understand the costs, and maybe even with a possible tax write off doesn't make sense.

I would think that you'd want revenue that exceeds the expenses by your business plan's desired profit margins.  FWIW, if you're going to deep-dive the numbers, "breaking even" can be interpreted as a "loss".

There have been a number of excellent businesses in this hobby that do not or did not attend York.  They succeeded because of their smart business plan and excellent customer service.  IIRC from the 80's to 90's it became vogue or expected to see dealers, manufacturers and other support businesses eventually attend York.  This rapid growth fed the mystique of the meet as the place to go to see the O and Standard gauge train mecca that grew from it's original semi-annual 2 day member to member trading meet to the 3.5 day multi-hall and arena and parking lot filled event that it became around 2003 with the opening of the Orange Hall (Toyota Arena which later became Utz Arena and is now Weis Markets Arena).  Related to the meet's growth in popularity and size, IMHO the E-Div also enjoyed the prestige and power attributed to the meet.  Arguably, the E-Div could have been described as being too purist, inflexible, and possibly arrogant (for example: no pictures permitted even in any of the hobby's train magazines or even the TCA's periodical) when the numbers were rising and then as when they were declining. I was happy to see the eventual public access to the meet, but despite its good intentions to serve as a potential TCA recruiting tool, I think it came too little too late.  Secondly there is little to no advertising of this meet to the general public like there is for other hobby or enthusiast events.  What little advertising the E-Div did seemed to be from the E-Div's facebook page.  This approach is just preaching to the choir.

The related travel, rental, lodging, payroll etal expenses have increased greatly in the past 20 yrs.  The mandatory attendance trade show mentality and practice is no longer what it was 10 to 20 years ago.  For example, look at the auto industry and how those events drastically changed.  I would not penalize a good train vendor/mfr for making the decision not to attend this or any meet/show.  A dealer, vendor, or mfr's operating practices 365 days per year to its customer base will serve as my guide to their business.  The slow downsize of this meet might bring it back to its historical roots:  a member to member social & trading event.

@MartyE posted:

Isn't most of the expenses for a vendor to be at York a write off?  While I understand the costs, and maybe even with a possible tax write off doesn't make sense, seems to me a smaller but still booth presence could be preserved.  While we all know about "wearing the OGR" promotion for lack of a better word, those who are new to the hobby wouldn't other than passing the sign at the booth.  They don't know the players like Alan and Dave.

Just asking about how do you reach out to potential new customers whether the limited public or 1st timers if you don't have at least one person as a booth attendant?

Curious more than anything.

Marty....as you know, when a business participates in a trip to a meet and/or convention along with the costs of doing so, these costs would be put under "expenses" as far as tax purposes.  Essentially, a "write-off" allows the business to pay a lower tax bill because they can take that amount and subtract it from their taxable income.  This of course means they only get a small percentage of that expense back...very small in most cases.

As far as reaching out to new customers specifically at York, for quite a few years now increasingly fewer new to the hobby folks have visited the booth.  I am not saying that it never happens rather it is becoming rare.  There may be several reasons for this but one thing for sure is one can not attach new first time customers if there are not enough of them coming through the door.  Out of several hundred that stop by the booth, about 2% say that they saw us for the first time.  Even less purchase something.  For York at least, the demographic is such that most already know about OGR and they either have a subscription already and just stop by to renew or say "Hi" or they are not interested in spending their money on a subscription at a meet and would rather reserve that money for rolling stock, etc.  Not everyone feels that way but it is a significant factor in why it doesn't make sense for OGR to have an expansive booth with tons of product.  For years now, we have taken too much of it back home.

As I said above, we will continue to support York by paying for a booth space during the Fall meets.  Our main team, the guys you want to meet and with whom you want to converse, will be there.  We will have signage at our booth promoting OGR and ways to contact us.  Almost all of our new customers come from digital and magazine advertising with the forum bringing in hundreds and hundreds of new members who are exposed to OGR and those that service and participate in the hobby.  I can't emphasize enough how the forum is growing.  Just in the last 10 years our average page view count was running around three to five million.  Now it is not unusual to have ten to twelve million page views.  Because of this we have concluded that most of our resources can be best used on the forum tying it to the magazine to both promote the hobby as well as our products.  This does not mean that we won't support train meets, it means that we are doing it in different ways.  Our Grand Stand meeting and OGR dinner get together are traditions that we intent to support as long as there is the demand.

@Keystone posted:

I would think that you'd want revenue that exceeds the expenses by your business plan's desired profit margins.  FWIW, if you're going to deep-dive the numbers, "breaking even" can be interpreted as a "loss".

There have been a number of excellent businesses in this hobby that do not or did not attend York.  They succeeded because of their smart business plan and excellent customer service.  IIRC from the 80's to 90's it became vogue or expected to see dealers, manufacturers and other support businesses eventually attend York.  This rapid growth fed the mystique of the meet as the place to go to see the O and Standard gauge train mecca that grew from it's original semi-annual 2 day member to member trading meet to the 3.5 day multi-hall and arena and parking lot filled event that it became around 2003 with the opening of the Orange Hall (Toyota Arena which later became Utz Arena and is now Weis Markets Arena).  Related to the meet's growth in popularity and size, IMHO the E-Div also enjoyed the prestige and power attributed to the meet.  Arguably, the E-Div could have been described as being too purist, inflexible, and possibly arrogant (for example: no pictures permitted even in any of the hobby's train magazines or even the TCA's periodical) when the numbers were rising and then as when they were declining. I was happy to see the eventual public access to the meet, but despite its good intentions to serve as a potential TCA recruiting tool, I think it came too little too late.  Secondly there is little to no advertising of this meet to the general public like there is for other hobby or enthusiast events.  What little advertising the E-Div did seemed to be from the E-Div's facebook page.  This approach is just preaching to the choir.

The related travel, rental, lodging, payroll etal expenses have increased greatly in the past 20 yrs.  The mandatory attendance trade show mentality and practice is no longer what it was 10 to 20 years ago.  For example, look at the auto industry and how those events drastically changed.  I would not penalize a good train vendor/mfr for making the decision not to attend this or any meet/show.  A dealer, vendor, or mfr's operating practices 365 days per year to its customer base will serve as my guide to their business.  The slow downsize of this meet might bring it back to its historical roots:  a member to member social & trading event.

Could not have said it better!!  Thanks for the thoughtful, meaningful, and realistic post!

FOLKS, I STAND CORRECTED.

I totally forgot about the OGR Wear Are You contest, and the presence that OGR will have at York in October.

What this really means is that The Bossman (Alan Arnold) called me today and gently "reminded" me about this. 

@Bruce Brown posted:

Pre-covid, one of my more gratifying experiences was attending a Greenberg train show at the Dulles Expo Center outside Washington DC. It was heavily advertised in The Post and in social media. This was the first time in many years I attended a non-TCA event. Driving to Expo I figured that parking would be no problem since kids and families are not that much into trains these days. Whoa!!!  Was I wrong!!!  Despite a huge lot, it was packed. I finally found a spot at a nearby Walmart. But catching my immediate attention, as I approached the building, were the families walking in with young children. Inside was also packed. Seeing all the kids made me feel so good and proud of our hobby.  All gauges were there including some vendors we see at York. I never asked them about their sales vis-a-vis York, nor the gauge people were buying. But I did see many people walk out with bags of goodies.

The first time I went to the local Greenberg show and the Amherst Railway Society show, I was surprised at how popular they were. The local train club's show is similarly popular.

@Rich Melvin posted:

FOLKS, I STAND CORRECTED.

I totally forgot about the OGR Wear Are You contest, and the presence that OGR will have at York in October.

What this really means is that The Bossman (Alan Arnold) called me today and gently "reminded" me about this. 

Ready, Rich!

Have a safe and great day!

Peter

Dealer no shows is not a big deal for me or the true collector that enjoys the Train Collectors Association. Lionel, MTH or any other dealer offers nothing at York that would excite a collector. Personally the members halls are the most enjoyable for me. Great deals are always available on old as well as modern items looking for new homes.

Thanks for the insight Alan.  Like I said curious more than anything.

@Allan Miller posted:

Train "stuff" aside, if you have developed friendships with others in the hobby who you regularly meet at York, or hope to make some new friends, you really can't go wrong by attending the York Meet. This October meet, in particular, will be the ideal opportunity to escape from real-world concerns and demands for a few days, and just spend some time seeing trains, talking trains, buying/selling trains, and just putting your focus back on what is surely the world's most diverse and creative hobby. Plan to take advantage of the opportunity if you possibly can.

OF course just seeing such a big show was my attraction to go the first time.  I didn't buy much.  The second time I went for the reasons you state, Allan.  I didn't buy much.  Those are the reasons I want to attend this time again, if I am able.  I won't buy much.

Did I make it clear, I don't go to York to buy?  I go to see see trains and talk to train friends; each of you. 

@Mark Boyce posted:

OF course just seeing such a big show was my attraction to go the first time.  I didn't buy much.  The second time I went for the reasons you state, Allan.  I didn't buy much.  Those are the reasons I want to attend this time again, if I am able.  I won't buy much.

Did I make it clear, I don't go to York to buy?  I go to see see trains and talk to train friends; each of you. 

Unfortunately that is York's biggest appeal yet one of it's biggest issues.  For many it has become more social than a buying trip.

All the big guys don't have to come.  The York meet was fine before and it will be fine without them.  They are a product of their own success.

@Putnam Division posted:

Peter

Man's best friend is also OGR's best friend! Great photo, Peter!

@MartyE posted:

Unfortunately that is York's biggest appeal yet one of it's biggest issues.  For many it has become more social than a buying trip.

All the big guys don't have to come.  The York meet was fine before and it will be fine without them.  They are a product of their own success.

The first few Yorks I attended I never visited a member hall.   My assumption was that they were full of pre- and post war items and stuff from the MPC era.   During this time I had to leave Thursday night or Friday morning due to family commitments as my son was still young.   The first year I went where I could stay until Friday night I decided to give the member halls a chance on Friday afternoon.   Short story, now 9 out of 10 times I begin my York Meet by visiting all the member halls first as you never know what you'll find and they always seem to have some gems available.  It's not uncommon in that I never get to the Orange Hall on Thursday. In fact, the times I do visit the Orange Hall first it's because I was too busy socializing ahead of the opening bell.

If you are one who goes mainly for the dealer halls you are doing yourself a disservice imho.

-Greg

@MartyE posted:

Unfortunately that is York's biggest appeal yet one of it's biggest issues.  For many it has become more social than a buying trip.

All the big guys don't have to come.  The York meet was fine before and it will be fine without them.  They are a product of their own success.

Marty, you are absolutely correct!  The more people like me, the less benefit it is for dealers.  From what I saw in 2017 and '18  (BTW my only trips to York), I saw lots of people hauling lots of boxes to their cars, which is great.  Most of them were younger than me.  I think the older folks (65+ that's me) have decided they have more trains than they need and are very selective when buying, they can't walk the halls all day, and so it becomes more of a social event which is great too.

@Allan Miller posted:

Train "stuff" aside, if you have developed friendships with others in the hobby who you regularly meet at York, or hope to make some new friends, you really can't go wrong by attending the York Meet. This October meet, in particular, will be the ideal opportunity to escape from real-world concerns and demands for a few days, and just spend some time seeing trains, talking trains, buying/selling trains, and just putting your focus back on what is surely the world's most diverse and creative hobby. Plan to take advantage of the opportunity if you possibly can.

Here, here. I expect to talk more than buy anything as that is almost entirely the main reason to go. That and see some stuff that you never see if you don't get around much. I only intend to try and find two things on my engine list that are older TMCC models that are extremely hard to find in most other shows I attend  I hope to yak it up as much as possible, so see you there Allan. 🙂

I understand that the big dealers want sales, but I often wondered, as I walked past/through their booths, why they brought large amounts of the "latest-and-greatest" from Lionel and MTH.  Personally, in this age of built-to-order, I already pre-ordered all the latest-and-greatest from my LHS and a few internet/mail-order outlets, and have been doing so for longer than I have been coming to York.  I would think that a lot of others are in the same situation where these big dealers have brought stuff that people already bought/had.

When I buy from the big dealers in the dealer halls, I usually buy NOS (10+ years or older) or used items from collections they bought, and on very rare occasion, blowout freight cars that I wasn't otherwise interested in when new.  Most of my other dealer hall purchases are from places like video dealers, tool dealers, apparel dealers, Die-Cast Direct, Scenic Express, Millhouse River Studios, Mega-Steam, or Jack Pierce, to name a few -- usually to save on shipping costs.  Most of the treasures I bring home with me come from the member halls because the treasures were produced before I got back into the hobby.

I just wonder if the big dealers brought their oldest stock, purchased collections (used), and then filled out the rest of their truck space with newer locomotives and overstock, if they would have better sales.

Andy

@Andy Hummell posted:

...When I buy from the big dealers in the dealer halls, I usually buy NOS (10+ years or older) or used items from collections they bought, and on very rare occasion, blowout freight cars that I wasn't otherwise interested in when new.  Most of my other dealer hall purchases are from places like video dealers, tool dealers, apparel dealers, Die-Cast Direct, Scenic Express, Millhouse River Studios, Mega-Steam, or Jack Pierce, to name a few -- usually to save on shipping costs.  Most of the treasures I bring home with me come from the member halls because the treasures were produced before I got back into the hobby...

I think that's very representative of how a lot of people shop the dealer booths.  I often find blowout cars that didn't appeal enough to me to pay full price for, and saving on shipping (without fear of damage) is a big deal especially for bulky tinplate items.

Called the EDTCA office and this is what I got from the horse's mouth. They said that Lionel WILL be attending this year and so will be Train World. For Charles Ro, they will not be attending.