Your thoughts on Lionel vs Williams O gauge passenger cars...

I like the Crown Edition sets because like you mention they are more financially affordable. I have 3 Crown Edition sets of passenger cars(6 cars each), and have noticed some differences with them. The first set has fixed(non opening couplers) couplers and the second & third set have opening couplers. I have had to change out the trucks with non opening couplers as they would not stay on the track no matter what I did, they even derailed on straight tracks. Oiling the axles & wheels on the Williams passenger cars helps to cut down on friction or drag and makes the cars roll better.

However I have noticed that some of the Lionel passenger sets have more detail in the moldings of the passenger cars, but the price is quite high when compared to Williams.

You may want to look at MTH passenger cars for more detail and slightly better pricing then Lionel.

K-Line made some nice looking passenger cars but some of their passenger cars had zinc pest problems that would erode the sides of the truck assemblies and the axles fall out at will. Also a couple of engines made by K-Line had the same problem with zinc pest on their truck assemblies. Another problem that I found with K-Line is the center rail roller spring breaks on certain passenger cars causing the lights to quit working.

Lee Fritz

I have very limited experiences with both Lionel and Williams passengers cars. Based on the one set of Williams aluminum cars and the two sets of Lionel cars I have, I would go with Lionel being smoother runners and more trouble free. I have had zero issues with a lionel F3 starter set passenger cars and likewise with older Lionel tuscan color madison type passenger cars. The one set of Williams aluminum cars look nice, but gave me a lot of trouble with lights flickering and do not roll as smooth as the Lionel. I ended up using led lights that come in a roll that I bought cheap on Ebay for the Williams cars. I know this sounds primitive, but I used a 9 volt battery in each car along with a mini toggle switch to turn the car lights on and off as needed. With a separate 9 volt battery powering each car, the lights seem to stay lit for a very long time, even after many runs. 

I have tried the miniature LED's and I am not that impressed with them for 2 reasons; first is cost, second the LED was much dimmer(almost 35% dimmer) then the regular incandescent bulb and the LED put out a blue tint as well.

Not sure but maybe using 14 volt light bulbs with a resister will work.

Lee Fritz

Williams 12" and 15" are as good or better than both the new and original Lionel cars the copy. I only have one set of Williams 18" streamliners and have not had any problems pulling 7 of them with a traditional size GG1. Nowadays I only buy cars with interiors so no longer consider Williams.

Pete

Norton posted:

Williams 12" and 15" are as good or better than both the new and original Lionel cars the copy. I only have one set of Williams 18" streamliners and have not had any problems pulling 7 of them with a traditional size GG1. Nowadays I only buy cars with interiors so no longer consider Williams.

Pete

The newer Williams by Bachmann passenger cars are better then the older Williams cars and have better truck assemblies. However the prices on the Bachmann website are very high! You can do better with some online vendors for new Williams by Bachmann items, maybe even save 45% compared to Bachmann's website prices.

Lee Fritz

I have 2 sets of MTH with interiors ( one is Rail King ) I have two Williams one 16" and one 18" and like them both. I like the MTH better as they have detail seats and I have put people in them. Lionel all I have is either Prewar or post war metal passenger cars so I'm no help there. But as one other person already mentioned I would look at MTH/Rail-King as they make some nice cars. ( by the way I'm not a big MTH fan mainly because of the different operating system I have always felt Lionel and MTH should get together and somehow merge the two systems as I believe down deep they would both benefit from it. ) I have TMCC/Legacy don't want or need another system) 

I have some MTH passenger cars and they look much nicer then the Williams passenger cars. However I have found that the MTH center rail rollers get dirty very quick on one set of cars I have. 

Also I have found that Lionel uses plastic gears on a lot of their engines so I quit buying them because of that. I would rather buy a Williams engine because the gears are all metal with the Williams engines. 

As for the 2 separate command control systems I agree that Lionel & MTH should do something to get one control system like in H.O. scale. Even Bachmann has their own remote control device for their operating cars to work with, so that makes a third remote control to use if you get the Bachmann remote for the Williams operating cars.

Lee Fritz

I have mostly MTH cars with a few of the Lionel and K-Line sets mixed in.  I don't have any Williams passenger cars now, sold all I had.  I favor the full interiors, so the Williams had to go.  Other than the stuff I run at Christmas, the PE and Hogwarts sets, all my cars are full interiors.  You can frequently score some very good deals on the MTH passenger cars, those seem to be the value priced pick.

Lee, one of the primary reasons the rollers get dirty on passenger cars is the current passing through them.  A conversion to LED's drops the current by at least a factor of ten, and also solves the dirty roller issue.

phillyreading posted:

I have tried the miniature LED's and I am not that impressed with them for 2 reasons; first is cost, second the LED was much dimmer(almost 35% dimmer) then the regular incandescent bulb and the LED put out a blue tint as well.

Not sure but maybe using 14 volt light bulbs with a resister will work.

Lee Fritz

I agree on the blue tint being an issue with LEDS which was solved with using information I read here on this forum of using an orange/yellow tint paint that gave the LEDS a nice warm yellowish glow. Brightness level was ok for me using the LEDS even with the tinting added.

Best bang for the buck in my opinion are the MTH cars made from around 2000-2005. These have interiors without figures but can be had for $25-30/car. They are well made and have good detail. Their later cars are even nicer but will also carry a higher price.

Pete

You can equip a passenger car with flicker-free LED lighting for around $10 if you don't mind a little soldering.  You can also lose the blue tint very easily, use either amber or yellow LED strips for the lights.  The installation takes one of the lighting regulators and the appropriate sized chunk of a 5 meter roll of your choice of colors.  The lighting will be a ton more evenly distributed then bulbs, and of course the flicker-free aspect is not to be ignored.  Did I mention you can adjust the intensity of the lighting as well?

I like Rail King passenger cars. They are well built cars and roll very smooth. The interior is nicely detailed and you can add figures. I don't know the price comparison, but I'm sure you can find a good deal at a train show.

I am not crazy about the Williams 18' Streamlined sets. The main reason are the cars marked coaches but their window arrangements are clearly sleepers. This is NOT something one can correct easliy without a lot of work.

The 18" heavyweights, esp from Samhongsa in the late 1980's are the same as the MTH heavyweights and can be had for some good pricing!

I have the 6 car RED TEXAS SPECIAL 15" AL set.  Run the base set with my 2245 F3.  Run all 6 with the WBB UP MKT Heritage SD90.  (OK, UP uses a SD70MAC!)  I use LeBelle oil for the trucks.  REALLY HELPS.  BTW, people want to buy the 4 cars and the 2245 because they think it is some set which got out of the Lionel archives!

N5CJonny posted:

phillyreading posted:

I have tried the miniature LED's and I am not that impressed with them for 2 reasons; first is cost, second the LED was much dimmer(almost 35% dimmer) then the regular incandescent bulb and the LED put out a blue tint as well.

Not sure but maybe using 14 volt light bulbs with a resister will work.

Lee Fritz

I agree on the blue tint being an issue with LEDS which was solved with using information I read here on this forum of using an orange/yellow tint paint that gave the LEDS a nice warm yellowish glow. Brightness level was ok for me using the LEDS even with the tinting added.

Along with the blue tint there was less light then a regular incandescent bulb almost making it look like no light at all. So if I painted the LED bulb it would not be able to be seen!

Lee Fritz

I have one Williams set and one Lionel set.  Both 15" cars.  Neither set had a problem pulling 6 -8 cars with their respective F3 A &B dummy engines in tow as well.  Dont remember ZW getting warm either.  And no wheels fell off.  

Sounds like a good project for me to get them out after being idle for 17 yrs and see what happens with no new lube on the cars.  Now I am curious.

phillyreading posted:

Along with the blue tint there was less light then a regular incandescent bulb almost making it look like no light at all. So if I painted the LED bulb it would not be able to be seen!

Lee Fritz

Not sure how you're doing this, but here's a car lit with 35ma total track power using LED strips and my lighting regulator.  Not many people would say it had "no light at all".

I have an older set of Williams. I have them converted to LED. The problem I have with them is the roller shorting against the axle so until I can re-truck them I can only run with the trailing truck roller. They have window inserts and show enough light.

midnightwrecking posted:

The problem I have with them is the roller shorting against the axle...

Try some tape around the axle.

Any recommendation for a passenger car brand comes with a BIG caveat. That is, unless you're using a black engine, or silver cars, color matching probably will be an issue. For example, if you think you can put MTH painted passenger cars behind engines manufactured by another company and get a color match, chances are you're wrong.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

midnightwrecking posted:

The problem I have with them is the roller shorting against the axle...

Try some tape around the axle.

That would be a band-aid solution, John!

I've seen that band-aid solution last for years.

Wow! Thank you everyone for your replies and advise.  The problem I have of power-sucking equipment seems to be two fold: First I have a couple of Williams Crown Edition locomotives, particularly a NYC Niagara) that are current monsters on their own. Second the Williams streamliner passenger cars both pull heavy and don't light up well.

I have two Williams Crown Edition sets with color-painted silhouettes that are the worst offenders. One pulls a little less heavily than the other, but both have dim bulbs and seem to hold back locomotives that already gobble up lots of current. Plus, I have had the truck spreading and derailment issues, requiring the pins to be smashed back down into place to pull the everything tight again. I think that this is a necessary evil...meaning that the trucks may be tight but now don't pull as easy. I have everything oiled and I cringe on the thought of doing it again as the track becomes an ice skating rink for at least 3 weeks and requires me to wipe it down over and over again along with the locomotives. The cars aren't squealing down the track, so I assume the oil isn't a problem.

I only have one Lionel set...but have never ever had an issues and some of the above responses indicate that Lionel cars may just be better...and that others have had derailment issues with the Williams cars. I think with what others are saying here, it appears that Lionel cars may be a better and more reliable setup...albeit at a higher price tag. There seems to be much positive feedback for MTH sets as well...and I may look into that. What I have against MTH as I know someone who has a bad truck for a passenger car and MTH just isn't making parts for them anymore or isn't standing by their product...so I am basically in the same boat as with my Crown Edition stuff if something goes wrong.

From what I gather here, again, it seems that Lionel cars have more reliable trucks and pull easier...one of the two factors causing my ZWs to cook after an hour of run time. The other is the cars' current consumption as well. Thank you Gunrunnerjohn for the info on LED lighting. I have seen it on other posts before and is helpful. Not to take too much away from this thread, but I think I will ween off the Crown Edition passengers sets I have and slowly replace with Lionel ones. They are brighter and pull easier. They don't have color picture painted windows and have easy to see black silhouettes against smoked glass/plastic. The clear windowed cars are EXTREMELY cool buy are probably off the table for now. If I could make the Williams cars roll easier and more reliably and retrofit with LED's affordably (not $35.00 per car as I saw on eBay for a setup that requires minimal tinkering to install), I would probably keep the Williams sets. Has anyone tried to light up cars like these with LED's and have no problems back lighting the colored paper silhouettes? How would I uplight the dome?

I will make a separate thread on LED lighting once I have all these passenger sets in order and have a good soldering gun. Heck, I've rebuild a house, so soldering some electrical connections and boards together is like doing that on a micro scale!

I have installed LED lighting in many passenger cars with silhouettes, they work just fine. 

As for the dome, I did that exact design Williams some time back.  It obviously does take a bit more work.  I went the extra mile and put a false floor in with some home made seats so I could put passengers in the dome.  Then I ran #30 black wire up the side supports and used a short strip of LED's down the center line of the dome.

As you can see, it all lights up just fine.

I have 3 sets of Crown Edition 21 inch cars.  I like them.  I converted the cars to LEDs by purchasing new LED bulbs from a hobby vendor.  These bulbs just dropped into the same light socket that came with the car.  

I have found that passenger car lights don't really matter much unless you run trains in the dark.  Most running on most layouts is done with the room lights on.  We seldom run the G&O garden railroad at night.

NH Joe

I picked up some Williams version of the Lionel Golden Anniversary Union Pacific passenger cars to add to my original Lionel set. The basic execution is faithful to the original Lionel cars, but their color is quite different being more orange or even almost hot pink leaning color of yellow. They are also hard to pull. I've checked them and made corrections to wheel track width where necessary, deburred the axles and truck casting axle holes, lubricated them carefully. But still they are a tough pull for the original locomotive. My solution was to buy off E-Bay another powered yellow 2023 locomotive and wire the motors through a single E unit. This moves the train but it is a power hog.

Bogie 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I have installed LED lighting in many passenger cars with silhouettes, they work just fine. 

As for the dome, I did that exact design Williams some time back.  It obviously does take a bit more work.  I went the extra mile and put a false floor in with some home made seats so I could put passengers in the dome.  Then I ran #30 black wire up the side supports and used a short strip of LED's down the center line of the dome.

As you can see, it all lights up just fine

John those cars look great with the LEDs! Your passengers look a wee bit honest to me. I have a bunch of subway riders that must be related to your passengers and their taste in clothing is similar.

I don't know how "honest" they are, but you have identified the source.   They're one of the few types I've found that typically fit in most O-gauge without doing surgery on them.

I don't have any Williams passenger cars so I can't comment on that brand. I do have Lionel and MTH, sold my KLine cars years ago. I recommend both Lionel and MTH passenger cars for smooth operating wheels, good lighting and solid holding couplers. The plastic bodied MTH cars are nice and lite and roll effortlessly. Same goes for the Lionel. The only issue I have had is with pulling power needed for Lionel's Superliner cars which are aluminum and are best served with two powered locos due to weight. 

I have not experienced any hot transformers while running these trains with their incandescent bulbs but I still plan to convert them all to LEDs. 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

You can equip a passenger car with flicker-free LED lighting for around $10 if you don't mind a little soldering.  You can also lose the blue tint very easily, use either amber or yellow LED strips for the lights.  The installation takes one of the lighting regulators and the appropriate sized chunk of a 5 meter roll of your choice of colors.  The lighting will be a ton more evenly distributed then bulbs, and of course the flicker-free aspect is not to be ignored.  Did I mention you can adjust the intensity of the lighting as well?

  

 

Traditional lighting eats juice like no other when compared to LEDs. Since I have a few dozen K-line and Lionel cars with incandescent lighting it would be cost prohibitive to convert them using the "plug and play' kits out there. Only wish I knew how to make my own.

Mike

Mike, you can convert them for $10 a car using the lighting module and the roll LED's.  It's hard to imagine that's cost prohibitive for someone with a few dozen passenger cars!   You just have to solder four wires to the module, two to track power, and two to the LED strip.  It typically takes me about 10-15 minutes to do an MTH car, they're easy to disassemble and the conveniently have the spring contacts that make getting the power up to the shell very easy.  It takes me about twice that if I had to do some wiring other than the LED module and strip.  I size up a group of cars and pre-make the strips connected to the modules and power pigtails.  Then I start opening cars.

John,

It's that simple! I'll contact you offline for more information.

Mike

It's really that simple.  Obviously, dome cars add a level of complexity, and powering the observation car rear markers and/or tail-light takes a bit more work, but that's not difficult either.

Hello guys and gals.......

I have a latest model of the Williams 15 inch aluminum cars for my early Williams Dreyfuss Hudson project train (check out my thread post- "looking for tips or advices for the early Williams Dreyfuss Hudson to run").  I am old school and like to keep the bulb sockets (bayonet base) type and who makes improved lighting from LED bulbs with the bayonet base ?   I need 13 of them so who make the best ones ?

"then Mary said, 'I praise the Lord with all my heart. I am very happy because God is my Savior." Luke 1:46-47 ERV (Easy to Read Version)

Tiffany

Hi Tiffany: You can get direct replacement bulbs, either bayonet or screw, in bright white, warm white (which matches the color of Postwar bulbs), and red & green from Town and Country Hobbies. I use these and have no complaints. They are available either singly or in a pack of 50, I don't remember what I paid.