Z-4000 & Lionel KW phasing

1 -> 2 volt spark or no spark - OK - in phase.  23 -> 25 volt spark - no good - out of phase.

If you are dead set on using the 14 volt C-D on the KW, you can pick one, C or D, and phase it to the Z4000 common, and have 14 volts referenced to the Z4000 on the other.

It's much easier to use A-U or B-U, though, and have the flexibility of being able to fine tune your accessory bus.

If you use a KW terminal other than U to tie to the Z4000 U, don't also try to run trains with the KW.

You can run trains, or power anything for that matter, with other combinations of binding posts on the KW, but they won't necessarily have a common with the Z4K or KW so that if equipment crosses the power districts you could get anything from zero to 14 volts or a short, and/or the throttles will work in the opposite direction at times - just very unpredictable. Keep it all completely separate and it's doable, though.

Gentlemen,

    Even if you phase the KW with the Z4K properly, put 10 Amp breakers between the Transformers and the Red mid track, TIU  Channels.  The KW has the old slow blow internal breakers, I put the breakers between the Z4K and the TIU also.  I never have a problem set up in this manner.   I do use the KW's & ZW's all time, along with 2 Z4K's. KW close left by the light, ZW far end of platform, and 2 Z4Ks on the roll away station under the Platform, all wired to the DCS TIU with the Legacy 990 Base wired to the DCS TIU.    The 10 Amp breaker banks are located on the roll away power station, along with the TIU & Legacy 990 base unit.  

PCRR/Dave

Dave, for a KW, I'd be more inclined to use 7 amp breakers.  I see too much potential for problems if a KW post other than U is connected to the Z4000 U and one also wants to run trains; it requires a knowledgeable person to analyze the internal wiring.

All I really want to do is use the 14 volt fixed terminal on the KW to run my second accessory buss. The z4000 will run the trains. I have the other accessory buss connected to the 14 volt fixed terminal on the z4000. I was told that using a 14 volt fixed source is optimum for accessories- more complicated than I imagined-Thanks guys-Rolf

luvatenor posted:

 I was told that using a 14 volt fixed source is optimum for accessories-

Probably by the MTH salesman, because that's all they offer.

Do it right and use A-U or B-U on the KW, set the voltage at around 14 volts to start, and adjust as needed. There is no blanket "optimum" voltage setting for accessories... lighting, motorized, vibrotor, switches, they all like something different.

Actually it was on one of the videos that Lionel has recently put out on Youtube- using 'Fasttrack'-Why do they have 14 volt fixed terminals on transformers? All of this baffles me- I will do what you advise-Thanks-Rolf

Lionel's transformers are factory set at 14 volts on the accessory output, they are adjustable 0-18 volts. 14 volts is just a starting point.

I just checked both transformers and BOTH have wide plugs on one side(only go in one way in the sockets). Do I still have to phase or are they ready to go? Thanks-Rolf

 The  cord on  KW has been changed , the original was not polarized, Yep they still should be phased  however it depends what is hooked up the accessory posts on the trannies   , Do any accessories share the  Transformers U connections? IF they do then they must be phased together.   Maybe you'll get lucky the first time when you plug in the KW.. other wise you have to file   or cut the one polarized plug on the KW.

Rob is right, I've had accessories that will operate best on voltages from around 10 volts to 16 volts, it really does depend on the accessory, and sometimes even the condition of the particular item you have.

Check this out from Lionel:

https://lionelllc.wordpress.co...hasing-transformers/  

Marty

RJR,

   7 Ampers are good also, if you want to go that light, never have had any problems with the 10 Amp Scott type Breakers, however I do know they break a little on the light side. Rob is also correct 14 is just the starting point, it really all depends on what you are running accessory wise, and how much power you are going to need to operate.  There definitely is no one certain best voltage for this operation.  It does sound like some sales pitch.

PCRR/Dave 

Thank you for all of your expert replies. However, I feel that I am not being clear enough. Both of my transformers(Z-4000 and Lionel KW) are properly polarized(1 wide prong on each). My questions:

1.Do I have to phase the transformers since they seem to be properly polarized(the outlets were also checked and are properly polarized)?

2.Do I PERMANENTLY attach a wire connecting the 'U' terminal on the Z-4000 and the 'U' terminal on the KW?

Thank you-Rolf

If you cannot reverse the plugs due to the wide prongs, you can still reverse the wires on the KW's output.  Since the KW is "floating" with respect to the Z-4000, you can use any terminal on the KW to be your accessory common.  No need to get out the file!

You lost me on that one Dale, We have 8 Post war ZWs and I believe at least 1 KW  and if we connect all the U connections together the only way to get then all in phase is with the wall plug.... Turn it one way or the other.   What's the difference  between a Z-4000s and ZWs  U connection?  

Sorry but I am lost also- If all of the plugs have the wide prong, aren't the transformers then in phase? If so, how would I physically connect the KW to the accessory buss?

No.  They are not necessarily in phase.  Even the same model and brand transformer may differ.  Most transformers are unlike appliances.  Neither end of the primary winding must be connected to the 120-volt neutral.  So much depends on which way the fabricator or repairman connected the line cord to the primary terminals.  When installing new line cords in old transformers, I use 2-conductor polarized cords and I solder the connections so outputs are in phase with my Z4000,

Since the KW is "floating" with respect to the Z-4000

I think Dale means if there is no electrical connection between the two.  However, one would have to review each accessory connected to the KW to assure this.

luvatenor posted:

Sorry but I am lost also- If all of the plugs have the wide prong, aren't the transformers then in phase? If so, how would I physically connect the KW to the accessory buss?

There's  a 50 / 50 chance they are in phase. Connect the U connection on the KW and Z-4000 common accessory post    together.  Move the KW handle to around 14 volts.  Now measure the voltage between the KW handles post (A or B whatever you used)  and the hot accessory post on the Z-4000.There should be  no or very little voltage (maybe a couple of volts if the transformers are in phase. If the voltage is around 28 volts the transformers are not in phase.  Again someone has replace the cord on the KW so just because it has a polarized plug do not mean it's in phase,   If this info is incorrect I'll be happy to delete it..

There is no reason to test any electrical apparatus by making sparks. There is every reason not to. The correct method is to use a meter.

As others have said, the fact that a device has a polarized plug implies nothing about how it's wired, compared to other similar devices. You must start at the beginning, visualizing what you're doing, and then use the proper test equipment to achieve your goal.

Remember, there is no "positive" "negative" "plus" "minus" or "ground" in traditional A-C toy train electrical supplies. There is "hot" "return" and "common."  Using a variable output is the best idea, unless you are using a simple 14 volt transformer, such as a landscape transformer (those give the best results, in terms of reliability, power availability and constancy of voltage.)

If you would like to get more advice on this or any other electrical matter, feel free to email me privately or call me. I have 50 years' experience playing with toy trains and working with electrons. I prefer not to broadcast advice having been shouted down by the experts on this forum too many times. 

info (at) SIBTA (dot) com

631 - 749 - zero one zero zero

I'm about 99% sure that no post-war transformer such as the ZW or KW came with a polarized plug.  If the cord was replaced with a polarized cord, as previously stated, there's a good chance that it's out of phase with other transformers.

Gregg posted:

luvatenor posted:

Sorry but I am lost also- If all of the plugs have the wide prong, aren't the transformers then in phase? If so, how would I physically connect the KW to the accessory buss?

There's  a 50 / 50 chance they are in phase. Connect the U connection on the KW and Z-4000 common accessory post    together.  Move the KW handle to around 14 volts.  Now measure the voltage between the KW handles post (A or B whatever you used)  and the hot accessory post on the Z-4000.There should be  no or very little voltage (maybe a couple of volts if the transformers are in phase. If the voltage is around 28 volts the transformers are not in phase.  Again someone has replace the cord on the KW so just because it has a polarized plug do not mean it's in phase,   If this info is incorrect I'll be happy to delete it..

Forgive me but physically where do I put the red and black meter leads- measuring across two positive posts threw me-Thanks

Connect the two posts that you intend to use as a common, with a piece of wire. For instance, a "U" on each transformer.

Set the outputs of each transformer at the same voltage.  Use the meter leads to do this. The color doesn't matter.  Go, for example, from the A to the U post, first on one transformer, then the other, to check their output voltages. Get them as close as possible to the same voltage.  Use, for instance, 12 Volts.

Set the meter scale at 0-50 Volts A.C. or some similar range. Use one lead on one "A" post and the other lead on the other "A" post.   You are trying to determine if the difference between the output voltages is near zero (transformers in phase) or if it is the sum of the two voltages you set in step 1, (24 Volts.)

If you get zero, you're all set. If you get the sum, reverse one plug in the wall. Mark the plugs to allow repeated success, or plug them permanently into a plug strip, secure them with tape, and use the male end of the plug strip in the wall.

There have been hundreds of messages, YouTubes and other lessons posted on this subject.  Try the archives of this forum.

Gentlemen,

   Dale is absolutely correct, as usual, you can reverse the wires, on the floating transformer, or if you happen to own an old Red Plug Adapter that has the equal spaded prongs, use it and turn the plug around in the wall socket or plug bar.  As was stated you have a 50-50 chance from the get go, that the transformers will be in Phase already.  If you happen to own these old style plug adapters, never throw them away, they are great for phasing transformers.  I put a black line on the old Red Adapters to identify how the plug should go in.

PCRR/Dave

"Neither end of the primary winding must be connected to the 120-volt neutral. "

I think you mean "The two ends of the primary winding are connected to HOT and NEUTRAL, but neither must be connected to GROUND."

It won't work if there is no neutral connection.

But of course, this has nothing to do with the OP's original inquiry.

I admittedly was not clear, Arthur.  What I meant to convey is that there is no compelling reason for one end of a primary to be connected to hot, or to neutral, rather than the other end.  Certainly, if one end is not connected to neutral, the gadget won't work.

I think this does relate to the original post, since it means that if you have 2 transformers, both with polarized plugs but out of phase, there is usually (never know when one might encounter an exception) no reason why you can't go internal (if you're competent) and reverse the power cord leads.  Alternatively, one can buy a polarized replacement plug, clip off the original plug from the transformer power cord, and install the new plug with hot and neutral reversed.

Arthur P. Bloom posted:

Connect the two posts that you intend to use as a common, with a piece of wire. For instance, a "U" on each transformer.

Set the outputs of each transformer at the same voltage.  Use the meter leads to do this. The color doesn't matter.  Go, for example, from the A to the U post, first on one transformer, then the other, to check their output voltages. Get them as close as possible to the same voltage.  Use, for instance, 12 Volts.

Set the meter scale at 0-50 Volts A.C. or some similar range. Use one lead on one "A" post and the other lead on the other "A" post.   You are trying to determine if the difference between the output voltages is near zero (transformers in phase) or if it is the sum of the two voltages you set in step 1, (24 Volts.)

If you get zero, you're all set. If you get the sum, reverse one plug in the wall. Mark the plugs to allow repeated success, or plug them permanently into a plug strip, secure them with tape, and use the male end of the plug strip in the wall.

There have been hundreds of messages, YouTubes and other lessons posted on this subject.  Try the archives of this forum.

 

 

 

 0.9

 ation

Wonderful tutorial- just completed it and the voltage across the 'A' terminals on both was 0.9 volts. Success. After reading all of these responses, I decided to use the KW for both accessory busses. I will use the variable terminals and see what works best. The z-4000 will be used exclusively  for track power.

Thank you and the other members for all of your help and electrical education- have a wonderful holiday-Rolf

As I have stated elsewhere, it seems that Lionel's modern polarity standard on their bricks is "positive-going voltage coming in produces negative-going voltage out with respect to the U terminal" when a brick is connected with the 3-position Molex connector to a Lionel ZWC, Powermaster or other track voltage interface device that defines which transformer lead is "U".  This is counterintuitive to me, and may have resulted by accident when the first 135W bricks, which I believe were the first Lionel devices with polarized plugs, were introduced.  Once they started down that path, they were stuck with it, as evidenced by the need for polarity-reversing pigtail adapters when the early 180W bricks came out with "positive-positive" polarity, to maintain compatibility.

Going back to my earlier post, the output of the KW can be connected A-U or U-A arbitrarily to drive the accessories - whatever gives proper "phasing" (really "polarity".)  And no, it doesn't matter if some of the accessories are linked to track common as long as all the accessories on the bus are connected the same way.

Dale Manquen posted:

As I have stated elsewhere, it seems that Lionel's modern polarity standard on their bricks is "positive-going voltage coming in produces negative-going voltage out with respect to the U terminal" when a brick is connected with the 3-position Molex connector to a Lionel ZWC, Powermaster or other track voltage interface device that defines which transformer lead is "U".  This is counterintuitive to me, and may have resulted by accident when the first 135W bricks, which I believe were the first Lionel devices with polarized plugs, were introduced.  Once they started down that path, they were stuck with it, as evidenced by the need for polarity-reversing pigtail adapters when the early 180W bricks came out with "positive-positive" polarity, to maintain compatibility.

Going back to my earlier post, the output of the KW can be connected A-U or U-A arbitrarily to drive the accessories - whatever gives proper "phasing" (really "polarity".)  And no, it doesn't matter if some of the accessories are linked to track common as long as all the accessories on the bus are connected the same way.

Lets say  we have an insulated track section to activate a AC  relay for signals crossing  signal etc.  If you want to use the KW set a 14 volts to power the relay and  an  insulated track  section to activate the relay it does matter right?? The transformers must be phased  together  ? If they're not phased the relay will   not activate... ??? 

No.  You can use arbitrary polarity and even a DC source tied to track common as long as only one side of the supplies are tied together. 

It isn't necessary for them to be phased together, but it is desirable to minimize the maximum voltage between any "hot" leads on your layout.  Two "out of phase" 18V AC supplies can have a peak voltage difference of around 48 volts, and that is on the edge of being dangerous to humans, especially if you are "moist" due to perspiration on a hot day and the current flows from one hand to the other through your chest/heart.

As Dale has said, it doesn't matter if the transformers (or DC supplies, or dry cells, or old telephone supplies, or car batteries...etc) are just used for different applications. This just assumes a common for insulated rail activities.

The compelling reason to phase them is when they are both (or all) used for traction power. Then, if they are not phased, you get what Dale alluded to...lots of voltage differential, lots of smoke, and lots of excitement, when the trains cross over from one district to the next.

Even the guys who play with real trains have to contend with separate power districts and trying to make them play nicely together. Take a look sometime at the late great PRR signals and signage along the ROW.  There is one particular signal aspect, along with a sign, that tells the motorman that two adjacent power supplies have become out of frequency and that he must shut down the throttle for a few seconds, on the fly, when passing through what they appropriately call a "phase break" in the catenary wire.

Ok thanks for the info.  I 'm familiar with letting one leg of   DC current ride on one of the outside rails and the other DC  leg hooked up  directly  to a relay coil.  I get that part.

I don't get the part about letting a different AC post on the transformer riding on the outside rail.  Isn't that a dead short?

From the original post, for two separate isolated transformers, one lead of each transformer goes to track and accessory bus Common (either lead), and the other lead for the track power transformer goes to the center rail, and for the accessories transformer the other lead goes to the relay, accessory bus "hot", etc..  It is preferable, but not mandatory, that the two transformers be "phased".

I'm not getting involved in this fight, but will note that if you haven't phased transformers and they should have been, sooner or later you'll find out about it.  Sooner by a breaker or fuse opening; later by a tell-tale wisp (or more) of smoke from a loco or transformer.  Sort of like dropping your chewing gum on the hen house floor.  You're sure you can find it, but is it worth the risk??????

Interesting... It's finally sinking in . The Radio shack adaptor that we use to power the tIU via  the Aux port is an example I guess, One side only  is common to a Black connector.

it's floating  as in Dale's and Aurthurs  post.

However one could not use the handle   of the KW as an additional track   power supply   with  the Z-4000 because  both  U connections are now connected via the track. Dead short now. (I suppose you could use the C post and  A & B post  instead of the U but it's only rated for 14 volts) Not much good for DCS.

Maybe I am missing something here.  Are you suggesting that the Z-4000 and the KW are both tied in parallel to the same power block, rather than each powering a separate power block?  If so, NEVER tie two variable transformers in parallel!!!!!

If they are powering separate power blocks, you want the outputs from both to be in phase so that the voltage change as a train crosses the insulated separation gap is minimal.

No I'm not  suggesting that . I'm just saying If you want to use the handle of the KW for an additional  power source for  another  tiu channel. (  seperated by center rail insulating pin)  The  track automatically connects the u  terminal of the Z-4000 and the U connection on the KW together.   .   The KW is no longer floating  and must be phased via the wall plug.

I entered the discussion because the wall plugs weren't reversible due to wide ground blades on both, rendering your solution difficult, requiring a file or an adapter plug.  My original point was that if you can't reverse the wall plug, you can reverse the output leads.  There is nothing sacred about U being track Common - it is just accepted common practice.