Has anyone seen a PS2 Loco fry a TIU channel?

Hi Marty,

Sorry, I haven't seen your other posts.  The short answer to your question is, no, I have not seen a locomotive fry the signal generator(s) on a TIU.  However, I have seen unfortunate power supply configurations do damage.  Hence, all the following questions.

1. What power supply are you using for track power?

2. Are you using more than one power supply for track power?

3. Are you using a separate power supply into the TIU's Aux Power port?

4. If so, what kind of power supply?

5. Are you running your TIU in passive mode?

6. What revision TIU are you using? (look at the stick on the underside)

7. When the TIU was returned to you from MTH, did you save the paper work?  If so, what repairs were listed?

8.  Will either of the engines that were already loaded respond to commands from the remote?

9.  Have you tried tethering the remote to the TIU with a 4-wire telephone handset cord?

Thanks Dave -

1) Z1000s (I have 3 1 on Aux, 1 on Variable 1, 1 on Fixed Channel)

2) Only 1 PS for track power

3)/4) Z1000 on Aux power

5) No. I looked up passive mode, not using it

6) Rev L TIU

7) I did not save the paperwork

8) Once a channel goes nothing can be found, added or used. the screen says "NO ACTIVE DCS ENGINE" on power up. Then No Engine found when adding an engine.

9) My last step, last night was tethering, with same result. This morning, it is "looking for an engine" and has been doing so for 5 minutes.

Of note, At no time were 2 PS supplying power to track. Fixed 1 died with no aux power. Fixed 2 died with aux power. I have done factory resets on TIU and remote. I also reset 2 of my engines (on outpt2) after output 1 failed to see if that would help.

All Realtrax.

The small loop (70"x50") where out 1 failed has 1 lockon. Black and red consistent.

The larger loop (5'x16'ish)where out 2 failed, has 3 lockons, Black and red consistent.

Not sure if this helps for adding engines with the TIU and handheld remote, but I found that only one engine can be on the track at any time when adding an engine or it adds both engines at the same time and will run both engines added as one unit without seperate control features for each engine.

Also I have the TIU base powered by an MTH Z-750, and use an MTH Z-1000 with track one and a Lionel postwar ZW with track two.

Lee F.

Do you use the Z-1000 controller between the brick and the TIU for fixed channel 1?

Try using just the Fixed Input 1 and with a small test track place an engine on the track and turn on power.  Does the engine start up or sit there waiting.  At this point not sure whether it is a TIU or the remote.

If the engine starts right up, then it tends towards the TIU.  G

A TIU even though I believe it has fuses in it,  is dependent upon the circuit breakers in the power source for quick disconnect, i.e. possibly a Z4000. If for some reason the power source doesn't shut down on a dead short de-rail there can and have been problems with one of our TIU's.  Enough so that the plastic case of the TIU  melted.

Actually, the TIU will disconnect from the track without tripping the input power supply circuit protection.  I power a TIU with a couple of 180 watt bricks, and on shorts those bricks have never tripped, the TIU has killed the power before popping their breakers.  The bricks have very fast electronic breakers as well, so obviously they never see the load from a properly working TIU.

The TIU fuses are 20A, so it takes a pretty healthy transformer to kill those.

I found that only one engine can be on the track at any time when adding an engine or it adds both engines at the same time and will run both engines added as one unit without seperate control features for each engine.

That is the exception rather than the rule. I regularly add engines with mulltiple engines on the tracks, powered up.

Huh! Are you saying the tiu's fuses will blow before an 180  trips?

That's not really good is it as each tiu channel is only rated for 12 amps.

Off topic we had one tiu that would only function using an aux power supply for whatever reason ????? I guess we bent a connection inside the tiu where the jack goes????

No, I'm not saying the fuses will blow, the PH180 will trip long before 20 amps!  What I'm saying is the TIU internal channel overcurrent sense acts faster than the PH180's circuit protection.  I've never blown a TIU fuse, and don't ever expect to.

I'm not entirely sure how the power is routed from fixed channel 1 vs. the aux power jack, never had the occasion to track it down.  There must be some isolation, even though they feed the same electronics eventually.  I suspect something in those isolating components is the issue with it only working with aux power.

That is the exception rather than the rule. I regularly add engines with mulltiple engines on the tracks, powered up

 Here's some of what may happen if you're not using a deciated  programming track, A programming track can be anyplace on the layout with a good signal but all other engine must be on dead tracks , no power......

 Hopefully engines adds fine....

 Engine adds but with an goofy ID number such as 98 etc with  no name ..... (poor signal, not always)

  An existing engine adds again now with a new ID number.. You now have the same engine with 2 ID numbers, Only one will address the engine.....

 If the engine you're trying to add has the same ID as another it won't add unless on a program,ming track. example 2 new engines with ID #1 from the factory . If it does add it takes forever,

If you keep trying you can really mess up your remote.

I'm going to post this on both topics. Sorry to be a hog, but different people are helping in both, so I appreciate that. Here was tonight's troubleshooting. S

1) All power off

2) New batteries in Remote.

3) Tether and reset remote

4) Z1000 power to aux input on TIU. Factory Reset TIU

5)Variable 1 out to lockon w/20 inches Realtrax. MTH wires. RK Rudolph 2-8-0 on track

6) Z1000 to Variable 1 input. Variable 1 on. Variable 1 fxd.

7) Add Engine. Engine Found. Headlight and sound control tested OK.

8) Move wiring to V out 2. V2 ON/FXD. Able to start up engine and control light and sound

9) Tried moving to  Fixed 1 and 2. "Engine  not on track" returned when attempting start up. The lockon lights and a quick power cycle sent the train off the tracks, so there is power.

10) Reset TIU and Remote.

11) Add Engine on fixed channels"no engine to add"

Remember, each of the fixed outputs ran for hours with 1 engine. I added 2, the 2-8-0, a berk and the Ps2 upgraded GP9. The failure didn't occur until 2 trains were on the track. Before I take out a 3rd Channel, I thought I'm hoping someone has a thought. My thought is send the TIU back to MTH and the GP9 out for a thorough checkup, but don't want to pay for blowing up someone elses TIU. It's a premier unit and I don't want to replace it. I wonder if a 2nd upgrade kit is in order... I'm stuck on the GP9, just because it is something I touched, but can't see ow it could fry a channel.

FWIW, I'm having great difficulty seeing how anything in an upgraded locomotive could take out a TIU channel.  I suppose it's possible to connect something to the track to cook a channel, but I think you'd really have to work at it!

John,

That's worth a lot. I will hok up my large loop (that can handle the Berk and run it and the 2-8-0, for a while. Then I will risk adding the GP9, if the channel survives...

Well, it happened to me as well.  Had the exact same problem a year ago, and took it to a certifed LHS to be fixed.  Last time it was fixed 2; this time it was fixed 1.  Very similar to the original poster.  Had been running for hours - but only had one engine on track (was testing with PS2 K4).  Half way around the outer loop, it stopped responding to commands and just rolled along at the speed it had been set to regardless of what I did.  Obviously there was power to the track, but no DCS.  I've tried a couple of different engines since then - still no DCS on Fixed one.  Did a TIU reset, but have not yet opened it up.  I switched the Variable 1 (set to fixed) and it worked fine (had to power through aux power in...). 

Twice within a year and I'm getting a little tired of it.  It's a simple layout with ample MTH supplied power (Z1000's).  7 of my last 8 MTH Engine/PS2/PS3/DCS purchases in the last year have been faulty out of the box or failed shortly after purchase.  More if you consider the passenger cars that were wired wrong out of the box. They get fixed under warranty, sure, but it's a huge PITA and I'm tired of something being down constantly. 

Maybe I'm just cursed, but I'm starting to rethink hobbies - none of this stuff should be THIS fragile.  Thank goodness scotch never breaks.....

Fixed 1 and 2 still don't work, But I had success using Variable out 1(set to fixed) to power 3 engines on 2 loops for about a half hour. Variable 2 is powering a variable loop, so hopefully,I'm good through Christmas! Unless someone has any other suggestions for Fixed Outputs 1 and 2.

Thanks!

Glad to see the sense of humor isn't totally gone!

GGG

I am just using Z1000 bricks, with the MTH brick/banana adapters. Since MTH is honoring the warranty after Christmas, I'm not going to do any more checking internally (I did check fuses). The engines just sit there. The track lock-ons light, and if I interupt power quickly, I think the locos take off, so prob no DCS.

I think your right.  Glad it still is under warranty.  I would appreciate an e-mail or post of what they report as wrong.  Interesting that both the fixed take hits, but the variables work fine.  G

I'd like to see a post as well, I can't imagine how the locomotive had anything to do with this failure, but I'm always willing to learn.

I will post the failure. Not having a clue about what caused the failures, I was looking for anything I could have done. Not having any idea about Fixed Channel circuitry, I wonder if they need to protect the channels that can run variable more, but if they had a way to protect a circuit, I would think all circuits would be similarly protected.

Since the power comes through the TIU and is not generated by the locomotive, I can't see how the locomotive harmed the channel.  The one scenario I can see toasting a channel or two is having another source of power on the rails feeding back to the TIU.

With fixed 1 &2  never working out of the box it's hard to come up  anything. I would fuse the remaining channels (var 1 &2 set to fix) with 10 amp 32 volt fast blow fuses between the Z-1000 and tiu input. , Which will blow first in the event of a derailment.

 I know the Lionel 180s blow really fast but not sure about the z-1000, some guys swear by them though.

 I'm not sure this is related. I found my TIU signal was getting low on two channels. On mine switching them did not help. I found that in two of the main's blocks the signal was strong right at the connection points. It was terrible at the opposite ends. Checking voltage didn't indicate that big of a drop, just slight. One engine would work fine on it's own. However as many engines entered the block, voltage drops became more apparent. I wired another drop to that weak end of the blocks and all's well.

 I'm wondering if your channels work on just short test tracks rather than a whole loop. Maybe there's something wrong with your track, causing signal to fail or be soaked up? You seem to say that it's there but fails after time. Then when you connect a new channel it's there again? Do the variable channels fade with time? Did I understand you correctly?

 Can you add a correct light to the connections? What brands of engines and rolling stock are you using? Lighted cars? Have you pulled all cars off the track? Have you broke the loops at one end to see if signal strength goes up?( Set up test track)

Lots of good info in your replies Marty.  Thanks for answering so thoroughly.  It makes it a lot easier to try and help.

The fact that your "problem" engine that seems to kill the signal is an upgrade could be an important clue.

Joe asked about other brands of engines and rolling stock and lighted cars because these items can have constant voltage lighting boards.  Some CV boards are known to cause interference with the DCS signal.  Placing an item with a bad board on the track can be like throwing off a light switch on the DCS signal.  A lot of times, people re-use the CV lighting in an engine when converting it PS2.  MTH includes an inductor in the PS2 conversion kits to clean up this interference.  If the person who converted your GP9 re-used a lighting board but didn't install the inductor it could cause a signal problem.  However, if this was the only problem the signal would come back once the GP9 was removed from the track.  It sounds like fixed 1 and fixed 2 on your TIU now have a more serious issue.

I think you're wise to run off the variable channels for now and keep the TIU until after the holidays.  It's unlikely MTH could get it back to you before Christmas.  There are a couple more things you can check before sending it back.

1) Plug a brick into Fixed 1 IN (no other power anywhere).  Does the TIU power up?  If yes, skip to #3.  If no, go to #2.

2) Move the banana plugs to Fixed 1 OUT.  Does the TIU power up?

3) Connect Fixed 1 OUT to your short loop and place the 2-8-0 on the track.  Then apply track power (to Fixed 1 IN if it worked, otherwise to Fixed 1 OUT).  One of two things should had.  Either the engine makes a slight click and just sits there, or the sounds and lights turn on in conventional mode.  Report back which.

You should also double check that all the Z-1000's are in phase.  If you need help with that procedure let us know.

No it doesn't.  The TIU has no internal circuit breakers.  The only way for the TIU to cut track power without blowing a fuse is if you press the E-Stop button.  The TIU relies of the transformer(s) for circuit protection.

The break is made when a size M barrel plug is inserted into the AUX Power port.  There is a metal tab in the port that gets push out of the way.  The tab is connected by a trace on the PCB to Fixed 1.

Picture of Layout above. 2 PS2 trains moving on Variable 2. 2-8-0 on raised loop. GP9 on outer floor loop. Berk on siding. 2 RealTrax Wyes make siding. (problem predates Wye addition, but they are a WHOLE different topic) The Polar Express on Variable 1. The handcar is on a DC24. The Polar Express is the only non-MTH and was never on DCS track.

When the tracks wee dying I had at most the Santa w reindeer flatcar from K-Line on track. No lighted MTH passenger made it to the tracks this year (not with the power left to me). On the track now and working:

1) K-Line Solar car with meter. K-Line Santa flatcar, K-Line Caboose (no lights, needs work)

2) a few MTH revolving cars An MTH spreader, MTH lighted boxcar, MTH caboose.

3) Lionel searchlight car.

None are LED

As to the guy who did the upgrade. That would be ME . I removed the old lighting board, before anyone suggested otherwise. The GP9 has been running great via DCS on the variable hannel (set to fxd).

From the picture, the Bricks and TIU are under the raised platform. I can reset, but can't touch wifes scenery, unless trains die. So troubleshooting is out, until just before I send.

But to your questions, I will check before I send it in.

All the Z1000s are on the same circuit, in my house. A procedure, to check the phase, would be welcome. If they aren't in phase, what will that do? Can it be fixed?

The last question is: Assuming the TIU has aux power, is there a difference between fixed out 1 and variable out 1 set to fixed? Is there internal protection, for the variable channels, that wasn't incorporated in the fixed?

Thank you again.

You may be able to check out the z-1000 phasing on the layout if you can find a spot where one z-1000s track zone meets another z-1000s track. The 2 zones are separated  by  a center rail insulated joint.   Measure the voltage   on the center rail on one z-1000's  and the center rail of the second z-1000s. (yep center rail to center rail) the voltage should be very low, 2 or 3 volts.  If the voltage is high  30 or 40 volts the transformers are out of phase.

The other z-1000 is the aux power supply, it still could be ouit of phase with the other 2 but doesn't matter  as an aux powe supply

I've killed TIU's by putting too much power thru them as they can only handle about 10 amps per channel. Good thing is all that happened was a few inductors went bad..and a melted cover

Thanks, now I know how to check. Since there are only 2 Channels left (1 used as fixed, 1 Variable)< I can't check now.

If they are out of phase, is there a fix? If not, it seems like $100ish game of roulette buying more.

Marty,

If they're out of phase,just reverse the AC plug of one of them (not both) at the wall.

Hey Marty, my suggestion was for an already set up layout such as yours providing each brick shares the same  common(outside rail). On layouts with multible power supplies sharing  the same common ..outside rail)phasing transformers  should be the first step before anything is hook up.   You would join the transformer's   commons together and then measure the voltage between the hots.( yep hot to hot... seems weird though). Low or no voltage  in phase....  high voltage out of phase and will probably do some serious damage

You would think that each manufacturer's  stuff would be in phase with each other. Nope! 

Gregg,

Thanks. Considering the fix is flip the plug... Yeah, I'd think it would be simple enough to make 1 of the blades wider. MTH is always improving, so I'm sure they will pick this up.

You'll either have to get a three prong adapter or grind down the wide blade on your Z-1000 transformer as it already has a polarized plug with the wider blade.

Make sure you are using the same outlet for your transformers, as different outlets may be on opposite legs in your breaker box. This can be a cause to throw your transformers out of phase,

This sounds just like the problem I reported back in November:

https://ogrforum.com/d...nt/11003700283242207

I still have no VAR1 OUT and am currently using FIXED1 IN/OUT and have not run any conventional engines since.

The engine I was running was the RK 2-8-0 I recently upgraded to PS2.  I'm still running it and it's doing fine.