Can anyone explain Lionel's new remote control system?(Lionel's response on Page 3)

Here's some answers 

 

1.No they won't run in traditional/conventional mode.

 

2.No they will not run with a Legacy or TMCC remote.

 

3.When the remote breaks you either gut the engine and put and e unit in it or buy a new remote from Lionel or have them repair it.

 

Its like an rc car feeding off track power. The engine has a specific remote for just that engine and it only responds to the remote all it does is use the track power the rest involves communication between the remote and engine. Just crank up a standard transformer to 18V nothing else needed.

 

Hope this helps 

Liam,

Then this is the worst idea that Lionel has had since the original girls set. So if I want to add any of these starter sets to my modest collection  I have to use their cheapo remotes and when that breaks its time to get an upgrade. Why couldn't they develop a little TMCC jr. remote?

Scott Smith

Scott. Read the description for the black remote. Page 3  Supposedly multiple frequencies.

 

http://www.lionel.com/products...e/2013rtr/index.html

 

IMO, still the word idea Lionel has had in some time.   I feel us slipping back into the plastic world of MPC when they were producing 99% junk!

I honestly don't know enough about what is planned with this system to be able to comment, but the questions/concerns being raised are legitimate.

 

As many here know, I was/am impressed with the Thomas Remote Set, and for that line--Thomas & Friends--I felt the concept of remotes color-coded to match each of the engines was and still is a fine idea.  I likely would not be anywhere near as supportive of a "regular line" starter set that (1) was controller/remote-specific, and (2) could not be alternatively operated with conventional transformer control.

 

But, as I said, I just don't have sufficient information at this point to really make a determination.  You can be quite sure that, once the sets appear, you'll read my opinion in the magazine and possibly here as well.

I guess we've jumped the gun on you Allen, we're already posting our opinions.

I don't understand why people seem compelled to buy something they don't like.

 

I learned in recent years to refrain from buying anything from Lionel until the item is delivered and the actual flaws or features can be known for sure.

 

 

Until these get delivered no one really knows, and catalog descriptions have a reputation for being vague.

 

"LIonel" doesn't even know what these will or will not do until Mike Reagan gets his sample and can verify it here in the States.

Can anything good come of this idea. I just can't see any logic for this type of control system. If a kids gets this set and decides he like 0 gauge trains and want to take it to the next level (adding more trains and creating a railroad/layout) he basically has to dispose of his Lionel RTR set and start over. In my opinion, Lionel's RTR sets have done a terrible job getting the younger generation "hooked" on our hobby and this is a step in the wrong direction. This does not help the kids move from being a "toy" to being a "hobby".

This is sad news (unless you are MTH).

 

RickO, let's hope your right and nothing is set in stone. Let's hope when these sets are actually made, they are made with the idea of getting kids interested and the foresight of being able to expand the sets in the hobby.

Does anyone know when the manuals for the LionChief sets will be posted on Lionel's site?  The only ones out there are from the older Thomas sets and it's hard to tell whether that remote functions the same as the newer RTR LionChief sets.  Just because Lionel named them the same doesn't mean they function the same. 

 

I've been checking Lionel's site periodically for the manuals but so far no dice.  I'm hoping the manual will give a little insight into whether or not the remotes & engines are frequency programmable or married to each other.  From what I have read so far it's all speculation.  

 

If they turn out to be married to each other than I agree this was a TERRIBLE decision by Lionel.  I understand the business need for planned obsolescence but not in an entry level item where your company's future existence depends on nurturing the next generation.

 

I really wish Jon Z or Mike R would chime in here.

 

It clearly states the new remote engines can run on Legacy, TMCC or conventional layout it also doesn't say that they can be controlled by Legacy or TMCC. It goes on to say that Legacy and TMCC engines can be run at the same time as an engine with the new remote, but you have to use both remotes to control both engines. I don't have any of them, but I am 100% positive that MTH's starter set engines that come with the little remote also can be controlled conventionally, and with DCS.

 

Since it's the time of the season, I'd say Lionel swung and missed on that pitch.

My only experience has been with a 2012 Thomas set.  They don't even come with transformers anymore, just a wall-pack that plugs into a track section.

 

The LHS owner swore up and down they would work conventionally but as I learned on here, the Thomas set does not.  My son still has fun with it on our transformer-controlled conventional layout, but he was confused as to why he didn't need to use the transformer lever.  He kept saying "No, No, I need to use that, not this!" to the remote.

 

Honestly, I will probably pass on any future non-conventional Lionel sets.  I don't run TMCC/Legacy/DCC/anything and I don't plan to start.

IMO, it was a poor concept.  TMCC components should have been used.

 

An MTH starter set never become obsolete as long as it has PS2/PS3 components.

 

The Lionel approach is another system on top of a proven system.  What happened to all that talk of being backwards compatable?  The new starter sets are dandy if you are only buying one or two.  Add Legacy or TMCC layouts into the mix and it becomes cumbersome.

It may be that most of the misgivings about the LionChief remote systems is the path forward toward conventional control or Legacy control.  Including an E-unit in the sets would bump the price up - put perhaps Lionel can develop a conventional E-unit add-on upgrade option at modest cost, where at the throw of a switch, the unit can run either on its remote, or by conventional. 

 

Would that change the "swing and a miss" perception to if not a home run, at least a RBI?

I hope Lionel gets to show these sets on the Today show around thanksgiving that way people can see these and maybe they will become the new toy of the year. Lights, sounds, smoke, and remote a nice heavy metal steam engine or remote thomas sets. A great approach for kids and people starting out. Maybe the remote will be durable. I've had two of their G gauge remote sets and no problem under the tree for more than three years. We'll have to see when they arrive. 

 

More like a pop up to the catcher. MTH brings their starter sets in with both a DCS Lite remote and full conventional and DCS operation. Yes their MSRP is $80 higher, personally that's money well spent. I don't want to have to hold 2 remotes when running a new engine with my Legacy engines.

The thomas set remotes are durable and very kid friendly, but I agree with every one the a simple tmcc package should have been used. Tmcc is so old by now you would think the electronics would have paid for itself by now and there fore a new smaller tmcc package could have been designed to accomidate the starter set engines. Mth is right on the mark with there starter sets!

From what I've heard, LionChief is basically radio control with track power instead of batteries.

 

So if you wanted to run these locomotives on a regular layout, you'd have to crack 'em open and install an E-unit or command board.

 

---PCJ

These sets are not aimed at anyone reading this forum.  

 

The target audience are people that aren't involved with trains, model or otherwise.  The system is more like the AristoCraft/RMT system with the exception that the remote/engine binding is specific to that particular engine.  Costs were kept as low as possible and the parts used follow the KISS principal.  If the kid actually likes model railroading they can migrate to something more elaborate.  If they don't, you can toss the set with minimum out of pocket costs.

That is correct.  MTH starter set locomotives (and all their locomotives, for that matter) can operate conventionally as well as with DCS.  The starter sets come with the DCS Remote Commander, but it's easy to go to the next step (full DCS) or to just run them conventionally.

<<So if you wanted to run these locomotives on a regular layout, you'd have to crack 'em open and install an E-unit or command board.>>

 

Not quite true.  Just set your regular layout voltage to 16-18 volts, place your engine on the track and contol it using it's dedicated remote.

 

We do it all the time here.  I run what I want using TMCC or Legacy and the Grandchildren run a Thomas set on the same layout.

He's referring to if one wants to run these sets via conventional transformer control and without the remote.

Minimal out of pocket costs is relative, if I wasn't in this hobby and laid out $250.00 for a toy and it didn't perform or if I wanted to really get into the hobby wouldn't work well with everything else, I certainly wouldn't be very dang happy.

So, is this 3 different systems Lionel is coming out with?:

 

1) Thomas Remote

 

2) LionChief Remote

 

3) CAB1-L with Base1-L

 

I really don't understand the distinctions between them at this point.

My concern would be the damage a short could do at 18 volts to the engine's electronics.  When I was a kid I had a Rail Blazer set and ran it as fast as it would go.  Off the track all too often.  But that little engine jumped at 6 volts, so the fireworks stayed small and my hand already controlled the track power.  If this remote is like the TMCC any short would persist until cooler heads react. 

 

Nathan

Guys, its all very simple. 1). Engine has a dedicated remote Apply 18 volts to the track and off it goes! 2) in a legacy environment there is always 18 volts already on the track. The engine when placed on the track is run with its specific remote. While dad or who ever is running his tmcc or legacy engines via the cab one or cab two. 3) the thomas remotes were probably color coded for the engines because the engines are colored like thomas is blue, james is green and so forth. This way it's easy for little kids to figure out which remote is for which engine. 4) the new black remote shown in the catalog is the same thing just painted differently and has a new catchy name. Probably by the marketing folks to better sell the new system. These would also look better with a real railroad specific engine any way than with a colored remote. 5) if it breaks or quits if still under warranty it should be replaced by mikes team. Out of warranty repairs should be low cost as the price of a remote I assume would not be that much. 6) as for the switchable rf channels on the remote I dont have one so I cant say if it is a feature, but that would be a smart idea if it was. That would allow you to have say to engines running and be able to switch between the two. Up to four channels would mean four engines could be run off the one remote.

I disagree - yes, most of the sets are targeted at kids... but the locomotives in these sets are (were) perfect for those of us adults who happen to prefer O27 to "scale" O Gauge. The Berk in the Polar Express set is (was) a particularly nice locomotive - $199 for the loco plus you got 3 free passenger cars, some free track, and a free transformer. If the loco won't run with conventional locomotives it's worthless to anyone with a large roster of conventional locos - so essentially you're paying $200 for 3 cars and an oval of track.

Cheers,

Ken 

quote:

The target audience are people that aren't involved with trains, model or otherwise.

I didn't say kids/children.  If you are already interested in trains you already have a transformer or a remote control system.   These are STARTER SETS FOR PEOPLE WHO AREN'T SURE ABOUT THE HOBBY.  

You're right Chuck, they are starter sets.  However, if you decide that you like trains, expansion is still basically tossing this one and starting over.

 

It'll be interesting to see how they sell.

 

Exactly,

 

I lost a bet over this one.Went down to a buddies last week who had the Thomas and I made a bet with a freind in the car on the way down  that it definately could be run with cab1 or 2 as well .

 

As Paul states it says runs on Legacy etc...  which to me is kinda  well very misleading. I was actually gona get one until i found this out.

Coming from a company that has bent over backwards to make everything compatible from the beginning without anything becoming obsolite, this was a big mistep in my opinion.

Dad and son running on the same track. Son runs into Dads steamer without Dad being able to help son along with his remote or

 you lose the remote or breaks down later, would be smart for Dad to upgrade to a Cab-1, Legacy etc.. and grab himself a new steamer why he s at it.Thats how people think. If its gonna cost 50 bucks to get the remote fixed why not upgrade etc..

But these guys are smarter than me so what do i know.

I don't think that you have to lose anything when/if you decide to upgrade in the future. You will still be able to use everything alongside the new equipment, but you'll need to use the remote for that one locomotive. I don't think that it's unfair to say that most people starting into trains these days will go from a starter set straight on to a Legacy or DCS system. In this case, you lose nothing, as your starter locomotive will run on either of those quite happily. In fact, it's probably far easier than if you had a conventional starter set.

But for those who already have a substantial conventional system, then these sets may not be ideal. However, it's still early days for these systems, and perhaps future ones will have a switch that enables them to run under conventional power or even TMCC/Legacy? Only time will tell.

Just my 2¢ worth. 

My thoughts exactly, I want to get a Polar Express but I run conventional. If I buy this set I can't run it with my transformers so it's useless to me. If they decide to make this a standard feature on their sets and locos it looks like their plan is to eventually force people buying Lionel trains to invest in their proprietary system to continue in the hobby. If the trains came with a switch to toggle between remote and conventional that's great but it doesn't look like that's what's in store.

It would be nice if the manufacturers got together and came up with a system that works equally well across the board with remote or conventional with out having to choose between one or the other and which remote system you want to use. Correct me if I'm wrong here but isn't just about any RC unit capable of running any boat,car or plane with minimal adjustment for frequency and control features? Why can't the train  manufacturers do this?

 

Jerry 

May be Lionel will create another box in the future that takes the legacy commands and sends them to the wireless remote engines which could be programmed to work with multiple frequencies / engines.

Reading this thread I was just wondering the same thing.  Although would an additional interface of some sort to address these with existing Lionel control systems be able to incorporate a conventional option as well?

 

I'm still pretty green with all this, but it does seem Liam's first two observations are the disappointing or deal-breaker ones for some (no conventional or alternate control option).  It does seem surprising Lionel didn't target MTH's effort in cross compatability...Conventional/Full DCS plus DCC.

 

Wondering as VAGolfer mentioned...what could be a good thing to come out of this...my guess might be simple programmable frequencies in an RTR.  Maybe it will give MTH some ideas.  Something like 3-4 small dip switches built into the remotes would give 6-24 different frequency address options, but then the eninge would have to be open or programmable as well to receiving only one of those at a time.  I guess at that point, if you're MTH, why offer that level of programmability when you've already got DCS & DCC compatability in your starter sets?

 

Still an interesting offering that seems to be mainly aimed at kids or Christmas only layouts.

Robert

Wow.  I've seen a ton of dumb threads here over the years... I've been here since Week 1... but this takes the cake!

 

So you have one of the new remote sets.  You play with it and have fun.  Then you want to take it to GrandPa's house.  You bring the engine and your Remote, plop it down on his track, and run it right alongside his TMCC and/or Legacy trains.

 

He doesn't have TMCC or Legacy?  No problem.  Just push the throttle up all the way and dial in the remote.

 

These are fully forwards and backwards compatible with everything Lionel has ever made for AC power.

 

Want to expand to other stuff?  Go for it.  It's still compatible.  The only thing you can't do is dial it up with a CAB-1 or CAB-2.  But who cares what the shape or color of the remote is when you're having fun?

 

"But what about Conventional?" you say.  Just push the handle all the way up, and run the train with the remote.  It's not rocket science.  But then maybe you still have a VCR flashing 12:00 and use Fax Machines at work... if you're not already retired...

 

Jon

Jon C'mon. The logical thing would have been to make the loco controllable via the existing remote solutions that Lionel already has. Nothing elegant about having individual, dedicated remotes for each starter loco. MTH can breathe easy for the next year at least.

It's clear that these sets are targeting a different audience than us. So if LNL's market research dept thinks this will sell well to that other audience why do we all care??

I'm sure they looked at a TMCC lite option for these starter sets.  Perhaps it just wasn't cost effective to package a remote and command base with the sets.  The idea as I see it was to deliver a set with basic remote for persons entering the hobby.  It's not as if the MTH DCS Remote Commander lets you go back and forth between "full" DCS and the Remote Commander without doing factory resets to the engines.  There are functional limitations based on price as to what can be packaged with a starter set, be it MTH or Lionel. 

I'd say that it's clear that these sets also target THIS audience as well based on the spirited responses so far. Maybe Lionel mgmt doesn't know this however. This decision was probably driven by $$$$$$$ and not any market research.

So if LNL's market research dept thinks this will sell well to that other audience why do we all care??

 

Lionel has a market research department?

Scott Smith