0-72 Minimum curve layout ideas for a smaller space

Here's a simple plan I just drew using Atlas 072 curves and turnouts:

The track at top and bottom is very close to the edge.

Not only are the tracks at top and bottom too close to the bench-work edge, but the mainline is way too close to the yard track.  Any engine of good size entering the reverse loop by switching to the left is probably going to side-swipe any car on the yard track near that switch.

Chuck

Limited space is going to be a problem using ten 21" passenger cars is that those alone are 17 1/2 feet or cars. That would be close to 50% of your largest loop.

Also, does your 7 1/2' by 12 1/2' account for any 'people" access? doorway, center layout access (7 1/2 feet is too wide to access all of that width), engineer space?

Here is an 8 X 16 modular layout, which could be scaled-down to 7.5 X 12.   Obviously no problems with access or reach.  The outside route is O-72 Fastrack, the inside route is O-60.   Of course it could be redesigned for Atlas-O.  What do you think?

What about doors and access to your space?  Or is this a space within a larger room?

TM Terry posted:

Limited space is going to be a problem using ten 21" passenger cars is that those alone are 17 1/2 feet or cars. That would be close to 50% of your largest loop.

Also, does your 7 1/2' by 12 1/2' account for any 'people" access? doorway, center layout access (7 1/2 feet is too wide to access all of that width), engineer space?

Yes, the dimensions account for access as this is in a garage where things go in and out often.

Edit: the unfortunate thing is the garage is the only place I can put the layout because no room in my house (2400 sq ft) can fit anything bigger than 4ft by 9ft.

Ken-Oscale posted:

Here is an 8 X 16 modular layout, which could be scaled-down to 7.5 X 12.   Obviously no problems with access or reach.  The outside route is O-72 Fastrack, the inside route is O-60.   Of course it could be redesigned for Atlas-O.  What do you think?

What about doors and access to your space?  Or is this a space within a larger room?

I like it, but it would need to be reworked to incorporate a coach yard and engine facility.

Gensis, what does "coach yard and engine facility" mean to you?   Or, looking at Bob's draft plan above, I see three sidings.   Is that what you are looking for?   With a diesel fueling stand?

Ken-Oscale posted:

Gensis, what does "coach yard and engine facility" mean to you?   Or, looking at Bob's draft plan above, I see three sidings.   Is that what you are looking for?   With a diesel fueling stand?

Coach yard means space to accommodate 11-12 21" passenger cars and engine facility means space to accommodate 4-7 diesels at a time.

The first suggestion was somewhat what I was looking for, yes. 

You might have room for 2, maybe 3, 21" cars and 1 engine in the space given, that's it.

Turnouts/switches take up a load of real estate.

My current layout is approx. 12x12 with a 2-3x14 extension down one side:

Anything over a 5-car passenger train doesn't look good.  Freight trains are usually less than 10 cars.  I have no yard on the present layout, but soon I plan on expanding to this:

This will be my "dream" layout and most likely my last.  It will occupy the entire upstairs.

My 6-car GGD Silver Meteor is gonna look good riding these rails!  The mainline is 49.5" radius curves (099) 2-rail and all Battery-powered, Remote-controlled.  The only wiring MAY be building lights and the turntable.  I may get froggy and power a couple of the turnouts, but I kinda like throwing them by hand.

Bob Delbridge posted:

You might have room for 2, maybe 3, 21" cars and 1 engine in the space given, that's it.

Turnouts/switches take up a load of real estate.

My current layout is approx. 12x12 with a 2-3x14 extension down one side:

Anything over a 5-car passenger train doesn't look good.  Freight trains are usually less than 10 cars.  I have no yard on the present layout, but soon I plan on expanding to this:

This will be my "dream" layout and most likely my last.  It will occupy the entire upstairs.

My 6-car GGD Silver Meteor is gonna look good riding these rails!  The mainline is 49.5" radius curves (099) 2-rail and all Battery-powered, Remote-controlled.  The only wiring MAY be building lights and the turntable.  I may get froggy and power a couple of the turnouts, but I kinda like throwing them by hand.

That's a shame. I guess I'll just have to go to a local club then because I refuse to settle for MTH's inferior Superliners. 18" and plastic? No thanks.

I hear ya.  The 21" cars take a lot of room, but they sure look good going around a big curve.  I'd go even bigger than 099 on my new layout but just don't have the room (and still keep other things I want).

I have run my 21" cars on 49.5" radius curves and to me they look fine with a slight overhang.

Perhaps something along these lines using Atlas-O may serve:

• The outside main loop is O-81 with O-90 easements.
• The inside main is O-72 with O-81 easements.
• The mains are connected by #5 cross-overs.
• All other turnouts are O-72
• The coach yard curves are O-63 (I saw on Lionel's site that their 21" passenger cars can run on O-54)
• The engine facility is O-72 turnouts with one O-72 curve
• Access into the layout is through two lift-out bridges
• 4.5" parallel track centers

Or this version:

Here, the coach yard curves are O-81, O-72, and O-63 for the outside to inside storage tracks.

Ken-Oscale posted:

Or this version:

Here, the coach yard curves are O-81, O-72, and O-63 for the outside to inside storage tracks.

This could definitely work and I love the double track main. Switching consists around looks like it would be a lot of fun with this track plan as having good switching options is necessary because I'll be using cabcars and one or more of Lionel's Cabbage F40 NPCUs, meaning they have to be switched and coupled a certain way in order to not look weird. 

Thanks for your help I'm definitely thinking about using this. I also remeasured and found that I have 8ftx14ft to work with so any bigger modifications are doable.

Also Ken if you could post the part list for the track so I can get to ordering that would be great.

Well, if you have 8X14, this layout plan could be expanded to triple-track.   Would that be of interest to you?

The plan has no way to turn trains or locomotives - is that a problem?   

You can use the main line cross-overs to "run-around" cars if necessary - is that capability needed for your operations?

Ken-Oscale posted:

Well, if you have 8X14, this layout plan could be expanded to triple-track.   Would that be of interest to you?

The plan has no way to turn trains or locomotives - is that a problem?   

You can use the main line cross-overs to "run-around" cars if necessary - is that capability needed for your operations?

Triple track is tempting but I'd probably stay double tracked in order to keep costs down. It's also more realistic to do double track as there are very few triple track sections for what I'm trying to somewhat loosely model. I've only seen 1 small section from outside Los Angeles to Fullerton and it stops there. Turning isn't 100% necessary as I'll have Legacy Amtrak Cabbages for push pull and everything else that isn't push pull should be easy to move and shuffle around. The crossovers are perfect for consist switching as I'm highly considering snagging a Nicholas Smith Amtrak 44-tonner before they disappear and skyrocket in price. If I wanted to stretch to 14' I'd probably add length to the mainlines as trains of 21" cars get very long as one user has already posted in this thread. 

Thanks for your help. A complete tracklist would be much appreciated.

OK, so I have attached a simple expansion to 8 X 14.   If this looks good I will post the track list for you.

Genisis, I was concerned a bit about the reverse curve on the inside coach storage track, so I replaced it with a more gradual curve with O-81 1/3 sections.

Here's the Amtrak service facility at 2472 E 8th St, Los Angeles This would need the Atlas #5's turnouts.

I think you could get away with two lines for the service area, instead of 4.

Compressing the length is the issue, as indicated by TM Terry.

Also, about 86" wide would be needed for O72/O81 concentric curves at 4.5" centers.

Which service location do you want to model?

Moonman posted:

Here's the Amtrak service facility at 2472 E 8th St, Los Angeles This would need the Atlas #5's turnouts.

I think you could get away with two lines for the service area, instead of 4.

Compressing the length is the issue, as indicated by TM Terry.

Also, about 86" wide would be needed for O72/O81 concentric curves at 4.5" centers.

Which service location do you want to model?

I'm trying to model Los Angeles as that's the closest one to me. I'm perfectly ok with cutting corners just has to somewhat represent it. It would make sense as I'm trying to grab a Sunset 3rd Rail Hi Level lounge to repaint into Coast Starlight colors, and you can't have a Coast Starlight without either terminus.

I would like to have more than 2 lines because I may have up to 4-7 engines on the track at the same time (example: 2 or more P42s, at least 1 F59PHI, and a couple switchers).

Ken-Oscale posted:

Genisis, I was concerned a bit about the reverse curve on the inside coach storage track, so I replaced it with a more gradual curve with O-81 1/3 sections.

Looks great! I think this could be a final version, barring anything else others recommend.

Updated:  Great!   Here is the list of track needed:

• Track
  6011, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Curve radius 40 1/2" (O-81), angle 22.5º           20
  6012, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Curve radius 40 1/2" (O-81), angle 7.5º               4
  6013, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Curve radius 45" (O-90), angle 22.5º                   4
  6015, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Straight 1 1/4".                                                     12
  6024, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Left turnout 20".#5                                                2
  6025, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Right turnout 20".#5                                              2
  6050, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Straight 10".                                                          26
  6051, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Straight 4 1/2".                                                       8
  6052, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Straight 1 3/4".                                                     15
  6053, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Straight 5 1/2".                                                       8
  6058, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Straight 40".                                                            1
  6062, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Curve radius 36" (O-72), angle 22.5º                 17
  6064, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Curve radius 31 1/2" (O-63), angle 22.5º             3
  6072, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Left turnout 14 1/2". O-72                                    5
  6073, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Right turnout 14 1/2". O-72                                  1
  6081, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Crossing 45º                                                           1

Ken-Oscale posted:

Great!   Here is the list of track needed:

• Track
  6011, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Curve radius 40 1/2" (O-81), angle 22.5º           20
  6012, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Curve radius 40 1/2" (O-81), angle 7.5º               4
  6013, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Curve radius 45" (O-90), angle 22.5º                   4
  6015, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Straight 1 1/4".                                                     11
  6024, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Left turnout 20".#5                                                2
  6025, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Right turnout 20".#5                                              2
  6050, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Straight 10".                                                          23
  6051, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Straight 4 1/2".                                                       8
  6052, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Straight 1 3/4".                                                     13
  6053, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Straight 5 1/2".                                                       8
  6056, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Flex 39 7/32". (straight)                                         1
  6058, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Straight 40".                                                            1
  6062, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Curve radius 36" (O-72), angle 22.5º                 17
  6064, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Curve radius 31 1/2" (O-63), angle 22.5º             3
  6072, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Left turnout 14 1/2". O-72                                    5
  6073, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Right turnout 14 1/2". O-72                                  1
  6081, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Crossing 45º                                                           1
• There is one section of flex track, which is actually straight track.  Instead of flex, I would buy a 40" straight section and cut it to fit.

Could I get away with just using the flex track? I'm wary of cutting things. 

Well, you would have to cut/trim the flex track anyway.

This will work: replace the one flex piece with three 10 inch straights, two 1/75 inch, and one 1.25 inch.  I have updated the parts list above.

Ken-Oscale posted:

Well, you would have to cut/trim the flex track anyway.

This will work: replace the one flex piece with three 10 inch straights, two 1/75 inch, and one 1.25 inch.  I have updated the parts list above.

Thank you. That makes it a lot easier as I'm just a kid and I'm building this entire thing myself. My dad built my first layout, and this is in honor of him. 

Good luck GenisisFan99, this layout should go together easily, and a great way to honor your dad!  Let me know if you have any questions on the track plan.   This forum is a great place for help on other topics as well.    -Ken

GenesisFan99 posted:

Ken-Oscale posted:

Well, you would have to cut/trim the flex track anyway.

This will work: replace the one flex piece with three 10 inch straights, two 1/75 inch, and one 1.25 inch.  I have updated the parts list above.

Thank you. That makes it a lot easier as I'm just a kid and I'm building this entire thing myself. My dad built my first layout, and this is in honor of him. 

Atlas O flex track doesn't bend easily. Try to use sectional curves or cut curves and straights. There is a tie end piece that one uses after cutting track.

Carl, I replaced the flex with sectional in the discussion just above.   So no flex in the plan, all sectional.

-Ken

Ok I'm back with electrical questions. So for a track plan of that size and long scale passenger cars (meaning lots of lights), what sort of transformer would I need? I was thinking Z4000 or ZW-L but I'm unsure of how to wire it all together. I know I will probably need one of MTH's accessory blocks to hook up buildings and stuff, but for the track how would I wire it all together, especially if I'm using Atlas? For sure I'll have a Legacy and DCS system on the layout, which I know changes things a little. 

I can't recommend power for your layout because that is beyond my expertice but it certainly will depend on how many engines you will operate at the same time and the number and type of accessories you will have as well. Passenger cars with the incandescent lights can draw a lot of power but installing leds with special boards can reduce power requirements. I will rely on the forum electrical experts to help you on that. 

But this is what I have. I have about 320 ft.of atlas track with most fixed curves 072, a few fixed curves  081 and several areas with larger radii curves using flex track.  I have 2.25 percent grades.  I use a single KW with cab 1 remote control. All my locos are TMCC with only one that is a Legacy engine.  I don't run more than one engine at a time and I have removed the rollers on my passenger cars. The transformer is working well and I have several powered atlas turnouts connected to the KW.  I do not light my buildings and don't have other operating accessories wired at this time.  So, I would have to add a transformer for those. About 12 years ago I disconnected the power to the Lionel signals ( about 6 or so) I had on my layout, and eventually replaced most of them with PRR style signal head poles and towers that are not lighted. Maybe someday I will add the lights.

FWIW, I like Ken's track plan development.  It is interesting and is not cluttered with track. And, I think it would be great to see lights from block signals, and so forth.  Hope to see your progress soon. 

Gentlemen,

   As usual Ken's Engineering planning is top shelf, not only does he give Carl a full engineering outlay, he supplies the exact track piece listing, needed to completely build the layout.  

Ken I said this before, you are the best layout engineering planner around.

Merry Christmas buddy.

PCRR/Dave

Thanks for your kind comments Dave!   Merry Christmas to you and yours!  -Ken

Same track plans as above, with more labels and example track base/platform.

pennsynut posted:

I can't recommend power for your layout because that is beyond my expertice but it certainly will depend on how many engines you will operate at the same time and the number and type of accessories you will have as well. Passenger cars with the incandescent lights can draw a lot of power but installing leds with special boards can reduce power requirements. I will rely on the forum electrical experts to help you on that. 

But this is what I have. I have about 320 ft.of atlas track with most fixed curves 072, a few fixed curves  081 and several areas with larger radii curves using flex track.  I have 2.25 percent grades.  I use a single KW with cab 1 remote control. All my locos are TMCC with only one that is a Legacy engine.  I don't run more than one engine at a time and I have removed the rollers on my passenger cars. The transformer is working well and I have several powered atlas turnouts connected to the KW.  I do not light my buildings and don't have other operating accessories wired at this time.  So, I would have to add a transformer for those. About 12 years ago I disconnected the power to the Lionel signals ( about 6 or so) I had on my layout, and eventually replaced most of them with PRR style signal head poles and towers that are not lighted. Maybe someday I will add the lights.

FWIW, I like Ken's track plan development.  It is interesting and is not cluttered with track. And, I think it would be great to see lights from block signals, and so forth.  Hope to see your progress soon. 

I figure I'll need something more than a KW as K-Line Streamlighting eats power from what I hear. 10 Superliners alone is a fair amount of power draw, not to mention the fact that I'll be running up to 5 engines at a time with the current track plan.

For a sense of perspective, here is how it might look with some trains:

Ken-Oscale posted:

For a sense of perspective, here is how it might look with some trains:

If those passenger cars are 21" cars, it really looks like I can do exactly what I wanted to with this plan. Engine facility tracks are great, I'd have a couple MTH P42s, a 44-tonner, and an MP15AC at most on those tracks. 1 or 2 for motive power, rest switchers to assemble consists. Other consists such as Surfliner would either be on outside track running or in storage, so it all works out.

Here is an alternative arrangement.  It has a yard lead (O-72) and a more conventional plan.   Coupling of long passenger cars is easier on the straight sidings.   A bit less storage for cars but perhaps a bit more for locos.

Slight variation allows a bit more for coach yard - now 10 coaches.

Curving the coach yard tracks adds room for one more car: 11 coaches.