$100 Per Square Inch

Seeing how impressive your former layout was from pictures and how you purchased 2 engines on a whim from Ben at Alex and Dina's open house I will guess north of $100 per square inch -  is $250 a square inch in the ballpark?

While that number is out of my price range, if you can afford it and enjoy it, then I say go for it. You only live once.

-Greg

To quote (I believe) Commodore Vanderbilt, "if you have to ask, you can't afford it"... so stop asking   

Don't sweat the small stuff!  We're not in this hobby because it's inexpensive.  As long as you're having fun, that's all that matters.

I used to have a Microsoft Access database that I wrote to calculate the cost of everything in it.  When I noticed the zeros accumulating I deleted it.  I felt a little guilty, for about five minutes until I heard and saw that whistle steam or watched a long set of streamliners rolling on the main.

It doesn't get any better than that!

I have noticed a trend in quite a few hobbies since the great recession where some people are gravitating toward the bottom end of their hobbies (dollar wise).  I am a car guy too and Rat Rods are getting more and more popular as are very low buck builds.  Steampunk people seem to do a lot without spending a ton of money.  The creativity seems to be the prime element, not necessarily money spent.  I can appreciate the high dollar stuff bought or owner built (including train layouts) but have a soft spot for creative owner built stuff also including train layouts.

Chris Sheldon

I think I'll go read one of my old Model Railroading books where the author writes about building the table from scrap wood and making building out of cardboard.

I started doing some quick math, and then decided to forget about it.  I have spent a lot of money on trains and enjoy running them, now, while I can enjoy them.  I already have a plan for the day when it ends.

My layout starts at $100 per square inch and that covers the freight from America the rest (trains) is just small change.

Roo.

You can't take it with you when you go so might as well spend it right. I am all for making my own materials and hand building my structures as I think that adds creativity but nothing about this is cheap. I do wonder what the going rate for a professional made layout cost per sqft?

The Salty Smith posted:

 I do wonder what the going rate for a professional made layout cost per sqft?

here's a thread on some layouts with special pricing quoted. $7000-$10,000 for a 4 x 8 delivered and set-up with starter trains. $1.50 sq/in. and up.

I have noticed a trend in quite a few hobbies since the great recession where some people are gravitating toward the bottom end of their hobbies (dollar wise).

Its been happening in the world of toy trains too. The number of people looking for fix-em-up treasures at train shows is way up, as are the prices on viable gems.
Its all well and good that some folks are in a position to have $100 per square foot layouts, and to purchase $1,500 locomotives. There are also plenty of people who spend far less to participate in the hobby.

$100 per square inch is a scary number.  But I am right with the OP on how he started this thread; $3.99/lb for asparagus and I will pass, 2 different paint schemes of the same engine, I hope there is lay away...

I've said for years, when it comes to my trains, I have more dollars than cents.  I just don't say that in front of my wife.

Bottom line it's something we all enjoy and you can't take the dollars with you in the end.

Tony 

Hmm.  $100/sq inch.  So a smallish 10'X10' layout is 120"x120"=14,400 sq inches times $100/sq in = $1,440,000.

Now we all agree the Munoz Lines was a "million dollar layout", one of the top layouts in the country.  But the math falls a little short. 

BTW, if you covered the entire layout with Lionel AFT GS-4s and then stacked them 5 deep, well now you have your $100/sq inch!

Bob

PS:  $100/sq foot works much better:  $10,000 for a 10'x10' layout.

Some friends recently bought a T-shirt for me.  It reads: "I've spent most of my money on trains.  The rest I just wasted."

I realize that the overall perception by most people would be that I have spent far too much money on a layout that fills a basement; not to mention all of the rolling stock, engines, buildings, trees, trees, trees, trees, trees, etc.

My thoughts are this: yes, you probably are right.  Also I think, you have traveled extensively to many fun and/or exotic places.  Now that you're home, what have you got less some photos and memories?  And all that money you spent?  It's long gone buddy!  Goodbye.

As I descend my stairs into my miniature version of Glacier National Park and Marias Pass, I look all around and all that money I spent is there for me, my family, and my group of friends to enjoy all the time!

So who spent their money better?  

That is up to each and every individual's personal opinion.  There is no right or wrong. I have enjoyed this hobby since the 1960s.  Out of sheer curiosity, I wonder how much money I've spent on trains?  Then I think to myself: I don't want to know.

The bottom line is: "dead is dead" and you can't take it with you when you go.  It makes no difference if you've spent under $100 or more than one million.

Recently, standing at the decaying grave of James Jerome Hill, "The Empire Builder" who had built, The Great Northern Railway, this man had spent untold millions, on construction.  However, he loved that railway.  It was his baby.  He was very proud of what he accomplished!  He was quoted saying something to the effect of: I shall make my mark on this Earth and no man will ever wipe it out.  He succeeded.

However, Mr. Hill is still dead and in the end, did the money matter?  Does the money matter we spend on our hobbies?

As long as we're providing shelter, food, clothing and loving care for our loved ones, what's the harm in buying a $600.00 steamer?

My two cents!  Is anybody still awake?

I was having some heartburn with the math also. $100 per sq inch seems difficult to believe, but $100 per sq foot is doable. Not including engines and rolling stock that is.....

Rod

FWIW, I commissioned a custom S gauge layout by a high end layout builder. It has been in design and construction for 20 months. It is now done and will be delivered early November. All the trackwork is custom, the 50+ turnouts all hand laid, all the buildings custom made. It has all the LCS features and per Lionel R&D is the most elaborate LCS setup they have seen to date. The final cost is $14/sq. in. Left out were a more elaborate signal system and fully detailed building interiors. Adding those in would have added about $2/sq. in.

Trains are extra, but I have no shortage in that area. 

Hand layed track? Yikes! All bets are off in that case.

Rod

RRDOC posted:

Hmm.  $100/sq inch.  So a smallish 10'X10' layout is 120"x120"=14,400 sq inches times $100/sq in = $1,440,000.

Now we all agree the Munoz Lines was a "million dollar layout", one of the top layouts in the country.  But the math falls a little short. 

BTW, if you covered the entire layout with Lionel AFT GS-4s and then stacked them 5 deep, well now you have your $100/sq inch!

Bob

PS:  $100/sq foot works much better:  $10,000 for a 10'x10' layout.

The above mentioned 4 x 8 layout [ 32 sq ft] comes out to 300.00 +/- a sq ft making a 10 x 10 over 30K +/- the post about the S guage layout at 14.00 sq inch  equates to 2000.00 +/- a sq ft making a 10 x 10 layout 200K while actual costs for custom layouts are rarely posted there is obviously some serious money being spent on larger layouts. Bear in mind this rarely includes the actual trains. Just saying!

We all realize you can't take it with you, but I agree with RRDOC, the $100.00/sq in sounds a little high

RRDOC posted:

Hmm.  $100/sq inch.  So a smallish 10'X10' layout is 120"x120"=14,400 sq inches times $100/sq in = $1,440,000.

Now we all agree the Munoz Lines was a "million dollar layout", one of the top layouts in the country.  But the math falls a little short. 

BTW, if you covered the entire layout with Lionel AFT GS-4s and then stacked them 5 deep, well now you have your $100/sq inch!

Bob

PS:  $100/sq foot works much better:  $10,000 for a 10'x10' layout.

Aw man, you ruined it with the math!  LOL  Maybe square inch was a mistake and your right that its more like a $100 a square foot?  That actually sounds like it could be right...  

Tony

 Putting things into perspective; at a cost of $100 per inch, it must be defined whether that a cost is for a DIY layout or a "turn key" layout professionally built. Then we must factor in the equipment cost. Does that layout use older conventional operation of the more modern Legacy? 

My layout represents a artful historical presentation of railroading back in the 40's- 50's era. Its simply done and all conventional operation. The emphasis here is having a layout such as one in a museum. You turn everything on, light it up and watch the trains run. While like many of you I have thousands invested in my collection but only a small portion is used on the layout. Its mainly Gargraves and Ross with the track and switches and Midwest cork roadbed with ballast made from chicken grit with some gray paint added and tossed it. There has been a considerable sum invested in scenery but most of the structures are scratch built. MY layout has about 500' sq ft of table space which equates to 72,000 sq inches 500 x144).  By using the formula of $100 per inch that layout should cost $7,200,200.  At $10 sq ft my layout would have cost $5000 which is a little low.  My layout probably cost $20 per sq ft.   Conclusion, no layout costs $100 per sq inch.

Tony_V posted:

RRDOC posted:

Hmm.  $100/sq inch.  So a smallish 10'X10' layout is 120"x120"=14,400 sq inches times $100/sq in = $1,440,000.

Now we all agree the Munoz Lines was a "million dollar layout", one of the top layouts in the country.  But the math falls a little short. 

BTW, if you covered the entire layout with Lionel AFT GS-4s and then stacked them 5 deep, well now you have your $100/sq inch!

Bob

PS:  $100/sq foot works much better:  $10,000 for a 10'x10' layout.

Aw man, you ruined it with the math!  LOL  Maybe square inch was a mistake and your right that its more like a $100 a square foot?  That actually sounds like it could be right...  

Tony

Yeah.  Facts always get in the way of a good story! 

Bob

$460 grand + for a 4x8.  Give you a deal and build it for ya for $440,000.  And steady supply of Jim Beam bourbon for three months.  I think I just made out on that deal.  

If that last post doesn't bring a tear to the most hardened eye, maybe this will.  It's gone, but I'm still here.  

Cheers,       BK

I remember back in the 70's when you could buy a really nice ranch house for 35 bucks a square foot (and a really nice basement for your trains)!

My layout varies on price per foot; some area's...more, some areas... less! 

sam

hibar posted:

The above mentioned 4 x 8 layout [ 32 sq ft] comes out to 300.00 +/- a sq ft making a 10 x 10 over 30K +/- the post about the S guage layout at 14.00 sq inch  equates to 2000.00 +/- a sq ft making a 10 x 10 layout 200K while actual costs for custom layouts are rarely posted there is obviously some serious money being spent on larger layouts. Bear in mind this rarely includes the actual trains. Just saying!

That $300 a square foot by my guestimation is at the bottom of the scale. Over the last 6 months I have contacted 5 different professional outfits to build a 21 x 11 L layout for our local museum 288sqft and the lowest estimate was $86k that was a basic grass mat basic track configuration and premade buildings and foam rocks. Talking museum quality they started at $160k. Guess what, I will be building this project myself as $86k just isn't the museum budget.

Salty Smith - dude, I hope you build that.  I built three layouts for people to survive during the 'great depression' as one guy called it.  Have some great stories.  I had a gig to build a small historically themed layout for a town in Ill. that renovated their old station.  12 Gs for a 6'x9'.  With a potential ceiling layout.  Things at home got messed up at this time so I had to walk away from that.  Still bugs me because I had a good plan.  Somebody else built it and it is cheese food.  I hope you build it.  If there is $86 Gs in it,  I'll come and help you out.  Best of luck.

Cheers,       BK

Think this hobby is expensive, buy and restore an exotic car and keep it up to Concourse worthiness.  "Honey, should we buy an xyz for "the car" or another whatzit for the layout?"

Layout wins.

:-)

Mark, here is a sneak preview taken in August. 

As I commented earlier the cost delivered and installed is about $2,000 sq. ft. If it were 3 rail O gauge the cost would have been about 30%  less. Much more create from scratch than off the shelf when building in S. Plus, a lot more "things" fit in the same square footage in S than in O. 

It really isn't necessary to spend mega-bucks to enjoy the hobby. It depends on how you set your sights.

In earlier decades the hobby was more of a do-it-yourself home project on a modest level. Now there is a lot more commercial promotion and peer pressure to buy expensive new products and build ever-larger layouts to achieve fulfillment. That's how I see it.

AMFLYER. - that's awesome.  Sounds like you got your dream S Gauge layout after years of collecting.  Nicely played.  All custom too.  Wow, that has to be cool.  Enjoy that.  As many have so eloquently reminded us, you might be dead in the next minute.  Sheesh!

Ace posted:

It really isn't necessary to spend mega-bucks to enjoy the hobby. It depends on how you set your sights.

In earlier decades the hobby was more of a do-it-yourself home project. Now there is a lot more commercial promotion and peer pressure to buy expensive new products and build ever-larger layouts to achieve fulfillment. That's how I see it.

I agree.  The carpet central layout I setup for the grandkids provides quite a bit of entertainment.  And far be it from me to break out ANYTHING that will navigate an 036 curve after the grandkids head home :-).

Tony

RRDOC posted:

Hmm.  $100/sq inch.  So a smallish 10'X10' layout is 120"x120"=14,400 sq inches times $100/sq in = $1,440,000.

Now we all agree the Munoz Lines was a "million dollar layout", one of the top layouts in the country.  But the math falls a little short. 

BTW, if you covered the entire layout with Lionel AFT GS-4s and then stacked them 5 deep, well now you have your $100/sq inch!

Bob

PS:  $100/sq foot works much better:  $10,000 for a 10'x10' layout.

Bob, got it right. $100 per square inch is ludicrous!

No way it costs that much even if you hire a professional builder. I would venture to say that it is a lot cheaper than $100 per SQUARE FOOT if the hobbyist does the labor themselves. 

In earlier decades the hobby was more of a do-it-yourself home project on a modest level. Now there is a lot more commercial promotion and peer pressure to buy expensive new products and build ever-larger layouts to achieve fulfillment. That's how I see it.

I'd guess that for the vast majority of people into Lionel trains, it's still a do-it-yourself home project on a modest level. Certainly there are folks into the high dollar trains and high end layouts, some of which are professionally built.  It's a big tent, with room for all.

The Salty Smith posted:

hibar posted:

The above mentioned 4 x 8 layout [ 32 sq ft] comes out to 300.00 +/- a sq ft making a 10 x 10 over 30K +/- the post about the S guage layout at 14.00 sq inch  equates to 2000.00 +/- a sq ft making a 10 x 10 layout 200K while actual costs for custom layouts are rarely posted there is obviously some serious money being spent on larger layouts. Bear in mind this rarely includes the actual trains. Just saying!

That $300 a square foot by my guestimation is at the bottom of the scale. Over the last 6 months I have contacted 5 different professional outfits to build a 21 x 11 L layout for our local museum 288sqft and the lowest estimate was $86k that was a basic grass mat basic track configuration and premade buildings and foam rocks. Talking museum quality they started at $160k. Guess what, I will be building this project myself as $86k just isn't the museum budget.

You are correct the 300.00 a sq ft was for a 4x8 basic 3 rail layout which I believe was set up at York earlier this year, most of the custom layout builders build for commercial customers and individuals with an inordinate amount of discretionary income. The Model Railroader in 2003 featured a 3.5 millon dollar HO layout [3500 sq ft/ 1000.00 per sq ft] to replace the original O scale layout built in 1939 for 58K [2900 sq ft at 20.00 a sq ft] just saying!

hibar posted:

The Salty Smith posted:

hibar posted:

The above mentioned 4 x 8 layout [ 32 sq ft] comes out to 300.00 +/- a sq ft making a 10 x 10 over 30K +/- the post about the S guage layout at 14.00 sq inch  equates to 2000.00 +/- a sq ft making a 10 x 10 layout 200K while actual costs for custom layouts are rarely posted there is obviously some serious money being spent on larger layouts. Bear in mind this rarely includes the actual trains. Just saying!

That $300 a square foot by my guestimation is at the bottom of the scale. Over the last 6 months I have contacted 5 different professional outfits to build a 21 x 11 L layout for our local museum 288sqft and the lowest estimate was $86k that was a basic grass mat basic track configuration and premade buildings and foam rocks. Talking museum quality they started at $160k. Guess what, I will be building this project myself as $86k just isn't the museum budget.

You are correct the 300.00 a sq ft was for a 4x8 basic 3 rail layout which I believe was set up at York earlier this year, most of the custom layout builders build for commercial customers and individuals with an inordinate amount of discretionary income. The Model Railroader in 2003 featured a 3.5 millon dollar HO layout [3500 sq ft/ 1000.00 per sq ft] to replace the original O scale layout built in 1939 for 58K [2900 sq ft at 20.00 a sq ft] just saying!

These guys need to shop around. Some people are good at making money, not so good at spending it. 

Pete

Ace posted:

It really isn't necessary to spend mega-bucks to enjoy the hobby. It depends on how you set your sights.

In earlier decades the hobby was more of a do-it-yourself home project on a modest level. Now there is a lot more commercial promotion and peer pressure to buy expensive new products and build ever-larger layouts to achieve fulfillment. That's how I see it.

In EVERY hobby, there's always going to be the following types of people:

• Those who are only in it for affirmation and/or to impress others
• Those who have to have the newest stuff
• Those who have to have the most expensive stuff
• Those who look down upon those who don't do exactly what they're doing

And the worst of all:

• Those who think they have to lord everything they do over everyone else, as if the hobby would vanish without them.

I can cope with the other types, but not the clowns in the final two categories. We've all met one of two of them over the years, I'd bet.

Me, I only have to impress myself. Sure, it's great that people have been pleasantly surprised upon seeing the layout in person the first time, and who doesn't love the love they get online from posting their pics of their layout? But as much as people here (or anywhere) love or hate my layout, none of it means a thing ifI don't like it.

In short, I could care less how much layout has cost or will cost in the future. I had the money, I like how it's turned out, and that's really all I truly care about.

I don't think there's much wisdom on song lyrics, but there is one passage in a song I try to live by:

-It's not having what you want

It's wanting what you've got-

"Soak Up The Sun" by Cheryl Crow

All that self-affirmation, then you spoil it all by admitting you could care less?

What, me worry?

My moniker isn't only made up of my 'middle name' and 'trains' ala Lionel Trains but it's also my budget!  

My wife once asked how much I had spent on trains. I said about $30 to $40K. I really thought I was being truthful. Over the last year or so, I've been thinning out my collection as I have finally found where I want my new layout to go. ( I couldn't decide whether I wanted a detailed, realistic layout or more of a toy tinplate look). I'm going the toy route. I reckon I've sold off about $30K worth, and to be honest, can't really notice that big a hole.