#132 Station Operation Under Legacy Control

It's not going to work. When you cut power to a TMCC or Legacy command control engine, then until it gets another command to do something it's going to sit there.

Old school conventional controls and command control simply are opposite control methods.

Again, Ken, if you want to do this automatic stop at a position in Lionel command control- that's what a Lionel LCS sensor track is for.

You DO NOT DO THIS (create a block that power is dropped on by a thermal timer in a station) on a command control layout-

@Ken Gillig posted:

I acquired a Lionel #132 Passenger Station that provides automatic control, stopping the train at the station for selected time then train continues on again.

My track is Fastrack, and I can easily set up a block of track insulated in front of the station, the normal wiring is straight forward.

Any Tips: before I do the “vanilla” install I thought I would ask the Legacy and CC Control experts if anything extra or special needs to be done given my Vision or Legacy or TMCC engines in CMD mode will be stopped then started at the station without human intervention. Will that happen or do I need to factor in CMD control issues?

http://www.lionel.com/products...sensortrack-6-81294/

To give you a further technical explanation of why and why not.

To use that old conventional control station method with timer sensing and controlling  block sections the following assumptions MUST BE TRUE.

1. The engine must be configured to run in forward only the instant power is applied to the track. This normally would involve turning an E-unit off or locking in forward using a switch. That said- catch22 on a command control layout- TMCC/Legacy engines will NOT follow conventional track power commands- they wait for command control commands.
2. Also, while a minor thing- the sensing of the train is done by the current and total power the train draws in the block section in theory may somewhat play into how long the timer takes to activate and how long it stays activated? In other words, modern trains tend to draw less power, but at the same time, you are talking conventional control VS command (so say 8-14V or so on the track, VS 18V). I don't have testing or actual hands on with this and this station control, but again, just based on how it works, being a thermal timer- the thermal part of the equation is also tied to sensing the train and how much power it draws.

The instant you add command control to the situation, now modern trains work entirely different.

1. Command control expects a constant voltage on the track at all times and specifically get commands from the TMCC or Legacy base.
2. They tend to follow the last command given, until a new command is given, however a power controlled block section would reset the engine each time and cause it to be waiting for the first command to being moving. Otherwise the train will just stop and get stuck waiting for a command.

You are left with a few choices:

1. Turn off your command control base and only run trains in pure conventional mode. Also, this requires setting each train to lock in forward only, and assumes that trains reliably stay in this configuration and do instantly go forward when track power is applied. This is about the only way to use that thermal timer in the station and a block section.
2. Stay in command control- do not connect the station to the track and do not create a block section. Instead install a Legacy sensor track section and do so before the station also paying attention to travel direction. The purpose of the sensor is to detect a Legacy engine equipped with the downward facing IR LED sender. Note it will not detect non Legacy engines, or early Legacy before they included the downward IR sender. A workaround to that was the sensor car- but those have long been out of stock and very hard to find. The sensor track senses the engine, and then you can program and record a specific action or sequence of actions to happen when that legacy engine, or any legacy engine (another detail or setting of the recording). The sensor track then sends those commands to the base and in doing so out to the layout and trains. Example video and function https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7n5RQV6NeJY

@Ken Gillig posted:

Any Tips: before I do the “vanilla” install I thought I would ask the Legacy and CC Control experts if anything extra or special needs to be done given my Vision or Legacy or TMCC engines in CMD mode will be stopped then started at the station without human intervention. Will that happen or do I need to factor in CMD control issues?

if your experience says YES, please advise specifically what I might have to do beyond the “vanilla” install.

Ken,

Vernon's right on track here.

Conventional locomotives require that the power to the track be cut in order to stop.  They resume in the same direction when the power is restored (if their direction switch has previously been set to lock them in forward, instead of cycling N-F-N-R and so on via their e-unit).

Command locomotives (TMCC, Legacy, DCS, LionChief, Menards new diesels) do not like when the power is cut.  They will stop but cannot automatically resume their previous motion after the power is restored without being commanded to do so.  So, with them the power must stay on, and instead a stop command* must be issued in order to stop, followed by a go command* when it's time to resume.  It's a different way of doing the same thing -- but the power must remain on in order to best use it.

For command locomotives the sensor track determines when the locomotive is in the correct position for the station stop and then it helps deliver the corresponding stop and go commands.

It's not difficult to learn the command method, but it is different than what many of us be accustomed to because directions for what the locomotive is to do come from commands sent over a radio link instead of via track-applied voltage.

If you're interested I can provide a simple diagram describing a system that can allow the station to control the stop normally for trains pulled by conventional locomotives, and yet bypass it in order to keep the track voltage on for command locomotives, followed immediately by the commands required to stop and then, at a later time, to resume.  You'll need two sensor tracks and a locomotive that can talk to them as it crosses over them, which is either a newer-model Legacy model, or an older TMCC/Legacy model pulling a special sensor car behind it.

Mike

* In reality it's actually more difficult than I've described, but only a little.  There are no simple 'stop' or 'go' commands.  Instead there are a set of 'throttle-down-to-zero' and 'throttle-up-to-x' speed commands to choose from, and you might need to send several of the commands together, as a set or in a row, in order to get the job done.

Vern and Mike,

Thank you both for your replies. I am just going to use the #132 station now with the inside light fixed and NO auto control.

Later I will experiment with the sensor tracks I have where they are situated just to see what train motions can be derived.

My day is easier now… thanks for your explanations and advice!!!

Happy Holidays!

Ken