@JC642 posted:Thanks John, I didnt know the separate sale WIU was discontinued.
They're pretty much going with their "new" TIU with wireless capability as the whole enchilada for DCS operation. You get to supply your own remote in the form of your phone. There is the "talk" of someday doing a new remote, but I wouldn't hold your breath. I suspect I'll be long gone before a new remote shows up.
When Lionel released their latest catalog, Trainworld had a youtube live online meeting. During the Q & A at the end, someone asked if Lionel would be continuing to make remotes. Ryan from Lionel said it was not the future because all electronics manufacturers are making smart devices that work with phones. He said even if Lionel wants to do remote control devices, it is getting more expensive because phones and apps are where EVERYTHING is headed. So, let us enjoy our tetherless remotes as long as we can 
This post is just a little bit premature but I suppose it will help extinguish some of the gas lighting going on here.
Below is a little project I started on just before Christmas and with the help of an engineer at work as well as "borrowing" a prototype project board from a customer at work, we believe it is possible to use one or more DCS remote(s) with the new WTIU.
We are running on the assumption that the Remote Input port on the WTIU will work the same as it does on the current TIU. I don't see why it wouldn't.
We removed the 900 MHz transceiver from a REV. L TIU to ensure the remote couldn't communicate directly and communications had to run through our apparatus into the Remote Input port. I've had to hide the "Magic" inside of a temporary black project box at the request of the customer who loaned it to us. The radio board you see on top is a Panstick that is used as the new transceiver for the communications to and from the DCS Remotes. So far we have been able to interface 3 DCS remotes at the same time to this single TIU through the Remote Input port. I would have tried more but that was all the more remotes I have available to me right now. We are pretty sure that Super TIU mode works as we linked this setup with another regular TIU in Super mode without issue.
Not sure where this project will ultimately lead as it started out only as a proof of concept. When I get my hands on a WTIU I will test it again to verify the concept.
I’ve been wanting to make a thread on this- but a nice compromise would be a Mfi(made for iPhone) controller. Commonly used for gaming on iPhones, but they aren’t dedicated to a single game. That is, they’re capable of use with multiple apps as long as the app is MFI compatible .
lets say Lionel would make the Base3 MFI/other smart phone controller compatible. It still leaves an issue of if the MFI device would have to be configured in a way that it’s physical attributes properly align with the App function
A gaming Mifi controller usually has a a joy stick and/or 4 button directional pad, 4 buttons on the “front” that control functions of the app experience, and 3 or so other buttons that are for the devices connection and/or power.
It’s entirely possible a current mifi controller could work with the Cab3 app as all it requires is selection of features. the Mifi device could be made by Lionel or a 3rd party and would certainly be cheaper than a remote in the long term
@StevefromPA posted:I’ve been wanting to make a thread on this- but a nice compromise would be a MiFi controller. Commonly used for gaming on iPhones, they aren’t dedicated to a single game. The APP has to be mifi compatible, so Lionel would have to do that. A mifi device would also have to be configured in a way that it’s physical attributes properly align with the App functions. A gaming Mifi controller usually has a a joy stick or 4 button directional pad, 4 buttons on the “front” and sometimes two on the rear. It’s entirely possible a current mifi controller could work with the Cab3 app as all it requires is selection of features. the Mifi device could be made by Lionel or a 3rd party and would certainly be cheaper than a remote in the long term
You mean something like this:
@H1000 exactly! That’s awesome- so happy to see that. It has me reconsidering my decision to no longer pursue MTH. Looks like a very seamless experience- I hope Lionel does it for the Base3
@StevefromPA posted:@H1000 exactly! That’s awesome- so happy to see that. It has me reconsidering my decision to no longer pursue MTH. Looks like a very seamless experience- I hope Lionel does it for the Base3
@Dave Olson. In a video not too long ago Confirmed Lionel is working on game pad support with the CAB-3. 🤞🏻
@IRON HORSE posted:When Lionel released their latest catalog, Trainworld had a youtube live online meeting. During the Q & A at the end, someone asked if Lionel would be continuing to make remotes. Ryan from Lionel said it was not the future because all electronics manufacturers are making smart devices that work with phones. He said even if Lionel wants to do remote control devices, it is getting more expensive because phones and apps are where EVERYTHING is headed. So, let us enjoy our tetherless remotes as long as we can
Lionel is still manufacturing and selling the CAB-1L remote as well as the orange Lionchief Universal Remote
@Madockawando posted:Lionel is still manufacturing and selling the CAB-1L remote as well as the orange Lionchief Universal Remote
Yes, great. But what does that have to do with what happens next? I'm only saying what was said by Lionel. I think the question was asked in response to their new hellgate bridge-shaped base. If I am misquoting, someone please correct me. The point Ryan, I think, was making is that the internet of things is app driven, not remote driven, nor universal remote driven. Who would have thought 20 years ago that you could adjust your furnace remotely with your cell phone? Or run your trains? Companies today that offered remote controls for their products in the past probably aren't thinking about how they can improve their hand-held remotes.
Maybe I'm wrong. My current streaming tv remote sucks -- so there is a ton of room for improvement. It and my "smart tv" (I put that in quotes because it seems pretty dumb to me), do a terrible job of communicating. On the other hand, my phone app for my streaming tv works flawlessly when I watch tv on my phone.
Perhaps the game controllers listed here is a different approach and will change things. I know nothing about that and don't claim to. That would be a cool way to bring younger people into the hobby -- control your trains and gaming with the same device.
The simple question is why not continue to make the older WIU for the thousands who own the original TIU? My WIU with a tablet works perfectly alongside the DCS remote. It's a no brainer, I choose whether I want to run trains with the remote or tablet. If the remote breaks in the future with no replacement available, I still have the tablet.
@H1000 posted:This post is just a little bit premature but I suppose it will help extinguish some of the gas lighting going on here.
I'm not sure what gas lighting you refer to. It is a fact that MTH is discontinuing the DCS remote. It is a fact that the new TIU will not communicate with the DCS remote in wireless mode.
Months ago we were speculating right here in the forum about options. One such option is that it should be possible to use the wired port and add on a 900mhz transceiver board to extend wireless DCS remote operation to the new upcoming MTH TIU. From your post, apparently you have the first such prototype in captivity, certainly a positive sign.
@Madockawando posted:Lionel is still manufacturing and selling the CAB-1L remote as well as the orange Lionchief Universal Remote
First off, to head off the obvious path when you're boxed in, let's dispense with the CAB3 application. The whole premise of the discussion is one of having a physical remote with real controls, not a touch screen that you have to constantly look at to operate your trains.
As far as the CAB1L and the LC Universal Remote, neither of those options exploit many of the features of the modern Legacy locomotives. One of the more fun features for me is the combination of the train brake and throttle to create an infinite variety of labor effects. Also, features like the wheel slip for the Vision Line Big Boy and Challenger are not available using the CAB1L. Any feature that uses AUX3 is also not available using the CAB1L. All those limitations go double for the Universal Remote, with that control you can't even turn smoke on and off!
There's an old axiom in product design: Under promise and over deliver and you'll have happy customers.
Well, Lionel has delivered the CAB2 that has all the features described, and now they want to yank it back and hand me a much less capable remote control solution. That's over promising and under delivering, not the way to a happy customer.
@JC642 posted:The simple question is why not continue to make the older WIU for the thousands who own the original TIU? My WIU with a tablet works perfectly alongside the DCS remote. It's a no brainer, I choose whether I want to run trains with the remote or tablet. If the remote breaks in the future with no replacement available, I still have the tablet.
I would love to see this happen. I love the DCS remote, but I also wouldn't mind adding a WIU to allow phone use. I chose not to buy this when it was available because I always thought I could add it later.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:First off, to head off the obvious path when you're boxed in, let's dispense with the CAB3 application. The whole premise of the discussion is one of having a physical remote with real controls, not a touch screen that you have to constantly look at to operate your trains.
As far as the CAB1L and the LC Universal Remote, neither of those options exploit many of the features of the modern Legacy locomotives. One of the more fun features for me is the combination of the train brake and throttle to create an infinite variety of labor effects. Also, features like the wheel slip for the Vision Line Big Boy and Challenger are not available using the CAB1L. Any feature that uses AUX3 is also not available using the CAB1L. All those limitations go double for the Universal Remote, with that control you can't even turn smoke on and off!
There's an old axiom in product design: Under promise and over deliver and you'll have happy customers.
Well, Lionel has delivered the CAB2 that has all the features described, and now they want to yank it back and hand me a much less capable remote control solution. That's over promising and under delivering, not the way to a happy customer.
Well my comment was based on someone stating that "Lionel is no longer making remotes." My response is to point out that Lionel is making remotes like the CAB-1L and the Lionchief Universal remote.
Thank you for confirming that I am correct and backing me up! 
@IRON HORSE posted:Yes, great. But what does that have to do with what happens next? I'm only saying what was said by Lionel. I think the question was asked in response to their new hellgate bridge-shaped base. If I am misquoting, someone please correct me. The point Ryan, I think, was making is that the internet of things is app driven, not remote driven, nor universal remote driven. Who would have thought 20 years ago that you could adjust your furnace remotely with your cell phone? Or run your trains? Companies today that offered remote controls for their products in the past probably aren't thinking about how they can improve their hand-held remotes.
Maybe I'm wrong. My current streaming tv remote sucks -- so there is a ton of room for improvement. It and my "smart tv" (I put that in quotes because it seems pretty dumb to me), do a terrible job of communicating. On the other hand, my phone app for my streaming tv works flawlessly when I watch tv on my phone.
Perhaps the game controllers listed here is a different approach and will change things. I know nothing about that and don't claim to. That would be a cool way to bring younger people into the hobby -- control your trains and gaming with the same device.
What happens next?
Option A: Run your trains with the CAB-1L and BASE-3
Option B: Run your trains with the Base-3 and app
After either Option A or B: Have fun with your trains!
@Madockawando posted:Well my comment was based on someone stating that "Lionel is no longer making remotes." My response is to point out that Lionel is making remotes like the CAB-1L and the Lionchief Universal remote.
Thank you for confirming that I am correct and backing me up!
Yep, and its roughly the equivalent of an auto maker selling you a car that comes with a radio that only has a volume control knob LOL!
Eliminating the physical remote and only offering smart-phone operation is obviously where the world is going. Personally, I prefer the remote as I can feel my way around it while watching the trains (isn't that what it's about?). The universal gaming cradle is interesting but now you need two hands to operate it where the remote can be in one. How often do you find you need a hand on a train while operating the remote in the other?
Besides......if I need two hands to operate the remote, where will I put my beer????? 
The test device H1000 show's, has promise. How can the mfr turn their back on the thousands of TIU owners out there and not offer an option to interface with their existing equipment.
(I know, don't say it.....they want to sell the new stuff).
Going to a wired tether is a major step backwards for sure. I'll stick with my Cab-1L and DCS remote-commander for now.
Bob
@Madockawando posted:Thank you for confirming that I am correct and backing me up!
I won't dignify that with a response. 
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Even if Super-TIU exists with the new TIU, the remote has to communicate with the TIU that is currently controlling the tracks that the engine is on. When it is on tracks that the new TIU is controlling, your remote would no longer see it or control it.
I was wondering for those purchasing the new TIU's if they could still "Super TIU" the new design TIU units with their phone or tablet. IIRC even the old TIU's lost the "Super" feature when you plugged the remote in to one of them.
@BobbyD posted:I was wondering for those purchasing the new TIU's if they could still "Super TIU" the new design TIU units with their phone or tablet. IIRC even the old TIU's lost the "Super" feature when you plugged the remote in to one of them.
The super feature is contained in the remote not the tiu. When you plug a remote into a tiu with a cord, the internal transceiver is disabled on the remote not sure about the tiu but that doesn't matter with my project above because we don't use the internal transceiver on the tiu anymore.
@H1000 posted:The super feature is contained in the remote not the tiu. When you plug a remote into a tiu with a cord, the internal transceiver is disabled on the remote not sure about the tiu but that doesn't matter with my project above because we don't use the internal transceiver on the tiu anymore.
So does the new WiFi TIU have the ability for the MTH phone/tablet "Remote" to control 3 of them in Super Mode?
@IRON HORSE posted:I would love to see this happen. I love the DCS remote, but I also wouldn't mind adding a WIU to allow phone use. I chose not to buy this when it was available because I always thought I could add it later.
What a deal, you're forced to trash your perfectly good DCS system and buy a replacement when the remote crashes. Sounds to me as though the fellows at new MTH would like DCS users to know, they're waiting.. Eventually, you'll call with your credit card.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I won't dignify that with a response.
You just did!! Thanks again my friend! 😁
@RickO posted:Yep, and its roughly the equivalent of an auto maker selling you a car that comes with a radio that only has a volume control knob LOL!
Well I guess so but I don’t think that is what @gunrunnerjohn was referring too. I think he was just confirming that Lionel does indeed offer remotes for sale.
@Madockawando posted:Well I guess so but I don’t think that is what @gunrunnerjohn was referring too. I think he was just confirming that Lionel does indeed offer remotes for sale.
Do you have to work at being so annoying, or does it come naturally?
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Do you have to work at being so annoying, or does it come naturally?
Ah okay… I have nothing but respect for your knowledge of the hobby and I find your cuddly curmudgeon persona rather endearing. I can’t wait to meet you in person someday! 👍
@JC642 posted:What a deal, you're forced to trash your perfectly good DCS system and buy a replacement when the remote crashes. Sounds to me as though the fellows at new MTH would like DCS users to know, they're waiting.. Eventually, you'll call with your credit card.
Yes, agreed. That's why it would be nice if the WIU was still available.
In the latest OGRR runs, they talk about the technical stuff in DCS. Would it be possible for someone to make a WIU to add to the old TIU or is the hardware/software patented? And can it be made and sold for a reasonable cost?
@BobbyD posted:So does the new WiFi TIU have the ability for the MTH phone/tablet "Remote" to control 3 of them in Super Mode?
The current TIU/WIU combo does, I don't see why they would remove that functionality with WTIU.
@Tom Tee posted:The noise level of the slow demo train seems somewhat loud. Is that audio an accurate rendering?
Just thinking what would the level of noise be with multiple trains all running at normal speeds?
RealTrax Tom, it's noisy! 
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I'm not sure what gas lighting you refer to. It is a fact that MTH is discontinuing the DCS remote. It is a fact that the new TIU will not communicate with the DCS remote in wireless mode.
John, I was referring to those who have zero interest or investment into DCS but like to pop on these threads just to stir the pot. I really wanted to post my previous project in a new thread at the 11 hour of final availability of the prototype board we used above which I think will be late April. I am holding out on a long shot that I'll get my hands on a WTIU before I have send back my customer supplied board. I really doubt that will happen.
Weather people like it or not, the days of high end remotes with custom readout screen and two-way communication to a base device like the CAB-2 and DCS Remote are pretty much done. The volume of production is too low to make them cost feasible or profitable for Lionel or MTH. These remotes could still be built but the cost post for the customer would exceed any reasonable amount the customer is willing to pay.
"Dumb" remotes like the CAB1L & universal remote are are one-way communication, have no screens and no feedback from the base/engine they talk to. Right now they are reasonable to manufacture but I think the CAB1L days could be numbered also as not all of its electronics are off the shelf products like the Universal Remote. In my opinion the reason the CAB1L has life right now is because of the public backlash witnessed by MTH when they announced the cancellation of their handheld remote. When the BASE3 runs it product lifecycle and Lionel announces the BASE4, do you think it will support the CAB2 & CAB1L?
@H1000 posted:John, I was referring to those who have zero interest or investment into DCS but like to pop on these threads just to stir the pot.
Gosh, I can't imagine who you might be talking about. 
@H1000 posted:Weather people like it or not, the days of high end remotes with custom readout screen and two-way communication to a base device like the CAB-2 and DCS Remote are pretty much done. The volume of production is too low to make them cost feasible or profitable for Lionel or MTH. These remotes could still be built but the cost post for the customer would exceed any reasonable amount the customer is willing to pay.
I don't necessarily need the remote, but I am bummed about the loss of the features ofthe CAB2 especially. Other than the touch-screen app, there is no way to access a number of the Legacy features, that's not happening with the CAB1L. I think a remote with the train brake and real keypad buttons and a throttle knob isn't that difficult or expensive to build.
@H1000 posted:In my opinion the reason the CAB1L has life right now is because of the public backlash witnessed by MTH when they announced the cancellation of their handheld remote. When the BASE3 runs it product lifecycle and Lionel announces the BASE4, do you think it will support the CAB2 & CAB1L?
You're probably right, MTH dropping the remote was a wake-up call, I just picked up another remote.
As for the BASE4, that's years away I expect, so I'll figure on using my Legacy Command Base and/or maybe a BASE3 for a very long time with my CAB1L and CAB2 remotes, which I also have a number of. 
I may even have an old phone or two to supplement my "real" remotes.
@IRON HORSE posted:Yes, agreed. That's why it would be nice if the WIU was still available.
In the latest OGRR runs, they talk about the technical stuff in DCS. Would it be possible for someone to make a WIU to add to the old TIU or is the hardware/software patented? And can it be made and sold for a reasonable cost?
This is yet another project I have in the works. I won't release any details as I don't think MTH has announced the true death of the WIU just yet. Plus I think there could be some legal ramifications if show everyone how to circumvent the purchase of MTH hardware and building a really cheap WIU. My LHS says that they will continue to make the WIU... we'll see. But if confirmation comes from MTH that the WIU goes NLA, I believe I've developed a way you can buy some off the shelf (probably used) hardware and build your own WIU for about $20 or so depending on the prices on ebay.
If they abandon the WIU, that would be useful. I have one, and I shouldn't have sold my spare, but someone was begging me for it...
@Tom Tee posted:The noise level of the slow demo train seems somewhat loud. Is that audio an accurate rendering?
Just thinking what would the level of noise be with multiple trains all running at normal speeds?
It's a smaller room but the phone I recorded that video on does a wonderfully terrible job of amplifying background noise. I could have back filled the Realtrax with foam and that makes it very quiet... something I learned after I laid the track.
It's usually pretty quiet with three consists running at what I consider "normal speed".
@H1000 posted:This is yet another project I have in the works. I won't release any details as I don't think MTH has announced the true death of the WIU just yet. Plus I think there could be some legal ramifications if show everyone how to circumvent the purchase of MTH hardware and building a really cheap WIU. My LHS says that they will continue to make the WIU... we'll see. But if confirmation comes from MTH that the WIU goes NLA, I believe I've developed a way you can buy some off the shelf (probably used) hardware and build your own WIU for about $20 or so depending on the prices on ebay.
Nice. Very reassuring. Thanks for this note.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:As for the BASE4, that's years away I expect, so I'll figure on using my Legacy Command Base and/or maybe a BASE3 for a very long time with my CAB1L and CAB2 remotes, which I also have a number of.
Based on product lifecycle history of Lionel, I estimate we should see the BASE4 around 2035 or so. I'm going to guess that support for remotes that haven't been manufactured in 15 years will be dropped.
@H1000 posted:Based on product lifecycle history of Lionel, I estimate we should see the BASE4 around 2035 or so. I'm going to guess that support for remotes that haven't been manufactured in 15 years will be dropped.
Hmm, I'll be around 90 then, I doubt I'll be up to using a smart device to run the trains, so I better keep lots of spare parts for my remotes. 
@H1000 posted:You mean something like this:
I bought that gaming controller, but could not find an app that would successfully map the MTH app's screen to it (tried several), so I gave up and returned it. However, I lack your skills with that type of tech, so maybe you'd be willing to share details at some point?
@H1000 posted:This is yet another project I have in the works. I won't release any details as I don't think MTH has announced the true death of the WIU just yet. Plus I think there could be some legal ramifications if show everyone how to circumvent the purchase of MTH hardware and building a really cheap WIU. My LHS says that they will continue to make the WIU... we'll see. But if confirmation comes from MTH that the WIU goes NLA, I believe I've developed a way you can buy some off the shelf (probably used) hardware and build your own WIU for about $20 or so depending on the prices on ebay.
Looking forward to that. Despite my lack of tech skills, I'd roll the dice on $20ish worth of parts to try it.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Hmm, I'll be around 90 then, I doubt I'll be up to using a smart device to run the trains, so I better keep lots of spare parts for my remotes.
By then, we'll be running our trains just by thinking about it, if we can still think.
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