Possible roll out time frame:
Hi all,
Here's a little explanation of the NEW and OLD DCS hardware.
All the TIU's and DCS remotes built to date (the "OLD" TIU's) have used a 900MHz radio. This was current tech 20 years ago when DCS came out, but the electronics industry has since moved on. When was the last time you could buy a 900MHz cordless phone? The transceiver board in the OLD TIU and the DCS remote were an "off the shelf" component with an FCC certification (the expensive part) purchased from Texas Instruments. There are so few customers left making 900MHz products that TI doesn't want to make any more transceiver boards. Hence, no more DCS remotes or OLD TIU's.
The WIU was an add-on to the OLD TIU's that gave them a 2.4GHz radio that could use the industry standard WiFi protocols of today. Again, the radio in the WIU was an "off the shelf" component that already comes with an FCC license. MTH did discontinue the WIU, but not for lack of component availability. Personally, I hope the market will twist their arms to make at least one more batch of WIU's so that anyone who wants one can get one. The combo of an OLD TIU with a WIU is the most capable DCS setup, because it the only way to use both the DCS app and DCS remote (without a tether).
The NEW TIU has appropriately been dubbed the WTIU because it incorporates the WIU's 2.4GHz radio into the TIU. The WTIU will no longer have the obsolete TI 900MHz transceiver board. The only way the WTIU will have to communicate with the DCS remote is via the "REMOTE INPUT" jack. The "REMOTE INPUT" jack was included on the OLD TIU's and has been carried over to provide some level of backwards compatibility. I agree that a tethered remote is pretty useless out on the layout, but I'm REALLY glad they're including this feature. I've always preferred to tether the remote to the TIU and use a small set-up track when loading or editing engines. The fact that we can still manage our engine rosters without relying on either the 900MHz or 2.4GHz radios is a real plus IMO.
Super Mode is eliminated from the WTIU because it is no longer necessary. The purpose of Super Mode was directly linked to the use of the 900MHz radio. It was used to filter which commands were intended for which TIU's. Now that the WTIU uses 2.4GHz WiFi (or can be hard wired via ethernet cables) that filtering capability is built-in. Each WTIU will have a unique IP address, which allows for the same command filtering to be handled by the DCS app. This not only eliminates the need for Super Mode, but it also eliminates the limitation of DCS to only 250 switches and 250 accessories. Since the DCS app keeps track of WIU's and WTIU's by IP address, you can have more than 5 WIU/TIU combos or WTIU's, and each can have up to 5 AIU's.
As I mentioned before, I think the OLD TIU with a WIU is currently the most desirable hardware package because it lets you use both the DCS remote (without tether) and the DCS app. However, I am very interested to get my hands on a WTIU when they come out. There have always been some weaknesses in the serial link between the TIU and WIU that make undetected command errors possible. When running from the app or DCS remote this generally isn't a big deal. If a command got corrupted and therefore ignored, you simply pressed the button on the app again. When running automated from a computer, these missed commands can be a big deal (not getting the speed 0 command to stop is a problem 
). The WTIU gives MTH the opportunity to fix some of these 'under the hood" issues and make DCS better than it has ever been.
I am going to date myself. At one time I used an Al Trol Walkaround throttle back before Command control. A tethered remote that controlled conventional engines. On a walkaround layout designed for operations and switching. It worked very well. It had a memory so that when you unplugged it you followed the train and could plug it in further down the line. TMCC and DCS made it pretty much obsolete with their wireless remotes.
My layout is based on operations. I’d still rather tether a remote than run it with a phone. Many HO operators are still running this way. It’s been known you can tether the remote to the new TIU. Is it possible to run multiple Remote Inputs around the layout ? Not ideal but the way I run trains I could live with it. I have backups and until something fails I’m not going to worry about. I’m fine with what I have for equipment.
@Dave Hikel posted:MTH did discontinue the WIU, but not for lack of component availability.
So why did ATLAS just recent catalog the WIU as a for sale item?
https://shop.atlasrr.com/p-618...-interface-unit.aspx
@Dave Hikel posted:Super Mode is eliminated from the WTIU because it is no longer necessary. The purpose of Super Mode was directly linked to the use of the 900MHz radio. It was used to filter which commands were intended for which TIU's. Now that the WTIU uses 2.4GHz WiFi (or can be hard wired via ethernet cables) that filtering capability is built-in. Each WTIU will have a unique IP address, which allows for the same command filtering to be handled by the DCS app. This not only eliminates the need for Super Mode, but it also eliminates the limitation of DCS to only 250 switches and 250 accessories. Since the DCS app keeps track of WIU's and WTIU's by IP address, you can have more than 5 WIU/TIU combos or WTIU's, and each can have up to 5 AIU's.As I mentioned before, I think the OLD TIU with a WIU is currently the most desirable hardware package because it lets you use both the DCS remote (without tether) and the DCS app. However, I am very interested to get my hands on a WTIU when they come out. There have always been some weaknesses in the serial link between the TIU and WIU that make undetected command errors possible. When running from the app or DCS remote this generally isn't a big deal. If a command got corrupted and therefore ignored, you simply pressed the button on the app again. When running automated from a computer, these missed commands can be a big deal (not getting the speed 0 command to stop is a problem
This makes sense as the APP will be networked with each WTIU or WIU/TIU combo. Super Mode on the remote broadcasted commands to each TIU whether they need it or not.
So is it safe to assume the WTIU will not have a select-able address of 1 - 5 like the TIU? I don't see the point if it will be addressed by an IP address and doesn't need to support the old remote.
@Dave Hikel posted:Personally, I hope the market will twist their arms to make at least one more batch of WIU's so that anyone who wants one can get one. The combo of an OLD TIU with a WIU is the most capable DCS setup, because it the only way to use both the DCS app and DCS remote (without a tether).
Amen
@H1000 posted:So why did ATLAS just recent catalog the WIU as a for sale item?
https://shop.atlasrr.com/p-618...-interface-unit.aspx
Fingers crossed
Another question (and you probably don't have the answer), can a remote tethered to a WTIU communicate to other non-tehered WTIUs via the network they share?
@Dave_C posted:I am going to date myself. At one time I used an Al Trol Walkaround throttle back before Command control. A tethered remote that controlled conventional engines. On a walkaround layout designed for operations and switching. It worked very well. It had a memory so that when you unplugged it you followed the train and could plug it in further down the line. TMCC and DCS made it pretty much obsolete with their wireless remotes.
My very first paying job in model railroading was to re-wire a layout with Al Trol to run DCS and TMCC. It took a bit of work to make it run well with all three systems, but it worked. The irony is that the owner never used Al Trol again. The Al Trol throttles are still on the layout today, curly cords and all, but once DCS and TMCC were up and running he never went back.
@H1000 posted:So why did ATLAS just recent catalog the WIU as a for sale item?
https://shop.atlasrr.com/p-618...-interface-unit.aspx
It's a VERY hopeful sign. I'll believe it when they show up.
@H1000 posted:So is it safe to assume the WTIU will not have a select-able address of 1 - 5 like the TIU? I don't see the point if it will be addressed by an IP address and doesn't need to support the old remote.
It won't need it. There was purpose to keeping the distinction of the TIU address with the TIU/WIU combo. The app is able to query to TIU's address. That allows the app to import the switch and accessory rosters and maintain the same "paths." If the WTIU still has an address (1-5) it will probably be used to maintain that same backwards compatibility when importing a remote data file or to make it easier to swap out a TIU for a WTIU.
@H1000 posted:Another question (and you probably don't have the answer), can a remote tethered to a WTIU communicate to other non-tehered WTIUs via the network they share?
Almost certainly not. The remote input port has always used the same serial port on the MC16 processor (the real brains of the TIU) as the 900MHz radio. Whenever you connect the remote via the tether, the radio in both the DCS remote and TIU are turned off. That prevents the possibility of multiple commands hitting the serial port at the same time from different sources. To make a tethered remote work while the 2.4GHz WiFi is still functioning, the remote input would have to be moved to a separate serial port on the MC16. That would be possible in the WTIU. The MC16 has three serial ports. In the OLD TIU one serial port is used to control the AIU's, the second talks to the radio transceiver, and the third connects to the RS-232 serial port (and the USB port on Rev. L's). If the serial port for the RS-232 port is re-purposed for the remote input you could keep the 2.4GHz WiFi transceiver active, but it would take both physical changes to the hardware and major changes to the firmware. I highly doubt MTH will put in the coding effort to make that change.
Thanks for the explanations Dave, you confirmed what I suspected. We'll need to rework our project to maybe use the serial port instead which shouldn't take much. I wonder if tethering a remote to the WTIU will disable the WIFI? I may never find out as my prototype board will be returned at the end of April and I doubt the WTIU will show up by then.
I believe it is very possible that MTH could build an add-on device for the WTIU that would support the original DCS Remote via one of the external interface ports (most likely the serial or USB) on the WTIU.
@H1000 posted:So why did ATLAS just recent catalog the WIU as a for sale item?
https://shop.atlasrr.com/p-618...-interface-unit.aspxThis makes sense as the APP will be networked with each WTIU or WIU/TIU combo. Super Mode on the remote broadcasted commands to each TIU whether they need it or not.
This is really great news. I can't imagine them adding it to their catalog if it wasn't going to be available, right?
@H1000 posted:So why did ATLAS just recent catalog the WIU as a for sale item?
https://shop.atlasrr.com/p-618...-interface-unit.aspxThis makes sense as the APP will be networked with each WTIU or WIU/TIU combo. Super Mode on the remote broadcasted commands to each TIU whether they need it or not.
Thank you for the link. I would feel more reassured if the "Preorder" button actually worked when I clicked on it but I trust that at some point, it will.
Thanks to Dave Hikel and his advice, "As I mentioned before, I think the OLD TIU with a WIU is currently the most desirable hardware package because it lets you use both the DCS remote (without tether) and the DCS app," I would buy the WIU. I feel I would then be pretty well set with DCS, at least for this lifetime.
Peter Gentieu
Still find it odd that most of us have smart phones and use them on a daily basis. Some have tablets. The DCS remotes are going for as much as $200-400 on some sites i've seen. An Amazon Fire Tablet can be had for $50 and it will run all your stuff wirelessly, Old TIU or New TIU. Some folks love their old remote. I get it.
I'll believe it when I see it 
@LT1Poncho posted:The DCS remotes are going for as much as $200-400 on some sites i've seen.
Just an FYI for everyone, Train World has new remotes in stock for $250: https://www.trainworld.com/mth...-trains-50-1038.html
@H1000 posted:Just an FYI for everyone, Train World has new remotes in stock for $250: https://www.trainworld.com/mth...-trains-50-1038.html
If you could use them with the new TIU, they'd be even more desirable! 
@gunrunnerjohn posted:If you could use them with the new TIU, they'd be even more desirable!
Sure you can - just plug 'em in. 
Deja vu all over again...
@Mallard4468 posted:Sure you can - just plug 'em in.
Deja vu all over again...
Gee, what a novel idea...NOT!
@gunrunnerjohn posted:If you could use them with the new TIU, they'd be even more desirable!
@Mallard4468 posted:Sure you can - just plug 'em in.
Deja vu all over again...
In case you haven't noticed from earlier posts... I'm kind of workin on that for ya! 😉
@LT1Poncho posted:Still find it odd that most of us have smart phones and use them on a daily basis. Some have tablets. The DCS remotes are going for as much as $200-400 on some sites i've seen. An Amazon Fire Tablet can be had for $50 and it will run all your stuff wirelessly, Old TIU or New TIU. Some folks love their old remote. I get it.
I really think that this gets at one of the fundamental short comings of touch screen devices (phones, tablets, etc.) and one of the greatest strengths if the DCS remote. The DCS remote is an excellent piece of ergonomic design. A person with anywhere near average sized hands can hold the remote in their palm and operate all the key locomotive functions with the thumb of the same hand. Speed, direction, bell, and whistle operations are all under your control with one hand AND without having to look at the remote. The layout of the buttons and their varying shapes and textures make it very easy for an operator familiar with the remote to run their train without ever having to take their eyes off their locomotive. If the thumbwheel was improved (more like a mouse wheel) and the refresh rate of the remote faster (could process scrolling as fast as you scroll) the thing would be darn near perfect.
Similarly, the Legacy remote has many tactile advantages over touch screen devices. The Legacy remote (and Cab-1) is more of a two handed device because of the placement of the throttle knob, but you never have to look down to know you have your hand on the speed control. To me, the greatest feature of the Cab-2 is the whistle and bell slider. Like the DCS remote, this feature is pretty easy to control one handed and without looking.
In contrast, touch screens almost always require you to look at them to locate the proper area of the screen to touch. I've become somewhat adept at hitting the whistle slider on the DCS app without having to look at the screen. I can ride my finger on the edge of the screen and pick up the slider pretty reliably, but it's nowhere near as good as a physical slider like on the Cab-2. Until these limitations can be overcome I expect there will always be a market for dedicated hardware remotes like the DCS remote, Cab-1, and Cab-2.
When we were working with MTH on the develop of the DCS app I came up with a scheme to control engine speed, direction, and the whistle using the two volume buttons on a phone. It wouldn't work well on a tablet, but with a phone you could control the basics with one hand and without looking at the screen. MTH decided not to go for the idea because it would be Android only. Apple doesn't give developers nearly as much access to re-purpose the volume buttons. MTH wanted the user interface to be as consistent as possible between operating systems. I hope someday we'll get to the point where companies can use inexpensive Android based hardware in custom remote designs with more physical hardware inputs (buttons, sliders, wheels). To me, that will give us the best of both worlds and finally surpass the capabilities of the DCS remote, Cab-1, and Cab-2.
@H1000 posted:In case you haven't noticed from earlier posts... I'm kind of workin on that for ya! 😉
Oh yeah, I noticed! Just having some fun and poking at the circular nature of some of the posts in this thread.
And if I had to bet on who will deliver first - you or MTH - I think you can guess where my money would be.
@Mallard4468 posted:Oh yeah, I noticed! Just having some fun and poking at the circular nature of some of the posts in this thread.
And if I had to bet on who will deliver first - you or MTH - I think you can guess where my money would be.
Don't place your bets just yet, I did this to satisfy my own curiosity. If I can get this to market it will be a long road!
@Dave Hikel posted:I really think that this gets at one of the fundamental short comings of touch screen devices (phones, tablets, etc.) and one of the greatest strengths if the DCS remote. The DCS remote is an excellent piece of ergonomic design. A person with anywhere near average sized hands can hold the remote in their palm and operate all the key locomotive functions with the thumb of the same hand. Speed, direction, bell, and whistle operations are all under your control with one hand AND without having to look at the remote. The layout of the buttons and their varying shapes and textures make it very easy for an operator familiar with the remote to run their train without ever having to take their eyes off their locomotive. If the thumbwheel was improved (more like a mouse wheel) and the refresh rate of the remote faster (could process scrolling as fast as you scroll) the thing would be darn near perfect.
Similarly, the Legacy remote has many tactile advantages over touch screen devices. The Legacy remote (and Cab-1) is more of a two handed device because of the placement of the throttle knob, but you never have to look down to know you have your hand on the speed control. To me, the greatest feature of the Cab-2 is the whistle and bell slider. Like the DCS remote, this feature is pretty easy to control one handed and without looking.
In contrast, touch screens almost always require you to look at them to locate the proper area of the screen to touch. I've become somewhat adept at hitting the whistle slider on the DCS app without having to look at the screen. I can ride my finger on the edge of the screen and pick up the slider pretty reliably, but it's nowhere near as good as a physical slider like on the Cab-2. Until these limitations can be overcome I expect there will always be a market for dedicated hardware remotes like the DCS remote, Cab-1, and Cab-2.
When we were working with MTH on the develop of the DCS app I came up with a scheme to control engine speed, direction, and the whistle using the two volume buttons on a phone. It wouldn't work well on a tablet, but with a phone you could control the basics with one hand and without looking at the screen. MTH decided not to go for the idea because it would be Android only. Apple doesn't give developers nearly as much access to re-purpose the volume buttons. MTH wanted the user interface to be as consistent as possible between operating systems. I hope someday we'll get to the point where companies can use inexpensive Android based hardware in custom remote designs with more physical hardware inputs (buttons, sliders, wheels). To me, that will give us the best of both worlds and finally surpass the capabilities of the DCS remote, Cab-1, and Cab-2.
Dave, I agree with most of what you saying here. The disappointment for me in all of the remote offered by Lionel & MTH there inability to look at hand held remotes & game pads used in other industries when they designed their hardware. Why MTH couldn't have put a trigger button under the remote (like an N64 controller from 1998) instead of pressing the wheel to confirm your choice.
When it comes to looking at screens and the remote buttons, the DCS remote does allow basic functionality in this department but anything beyond speed, direction, bell and whistle, you are looking down at keypad and screen. I can switch engines much faster on a large roster with the app than I ever could on the remote scrolling through the roster 1 line at time looking for the one I want to run (and don't scroll to fast!). Another area where the app excels is operating in low / no light situations. The screen is fully illuminated and every function is visible where as the DCS remote & tactile buttons on the CAB2 are not backlit.
Depending on your handicap, the accessibility of the app is better too. We have a member at one of the clubs who has bad arthritis. He can't grip the remotes very well let alone press the buttons on them. He was able to experience command control for the first time using the DCS app on a large tablet with a weighted stylus. Accessibility features of the android & app operating systems can far outweigh any handheld remote if they are built-in and used properly in an app.
The game pad interface I built for the DCS app (posted earlier) gives you the best of both worlds. No more "one size fits most" remote, because you can choose between 100's of tablet add-on remotes available online. Fully assignable buttons to customize where functions reside on your app remote. I believe it is actually the first time the MTH Quilling whistle has been used on an analog control that physically simulates "pulling the rope".
At some point the band-aid of the hand held remotes has to come off, MTH has picked the faster route and Lionel is going for the slow pull.
@H1000 posted:At some point the band-aid of the hand held remotes has to come off, MTH has picked the faster route and Lionel is going for the slow pull.
The injury will still remain after the band-aid is pulled off. 
Just wondering if anyone in the O-gauge world bothered to look at what's going on in the DCC realm. Thinking specifically about the Digitrax DT602 - I used one recently on a friend's layout. Ergonomic design, wireless, easy to read screen, ability to control multiple engines, knobs for speed control, easy-to-use buttons, and they're available. Seems like someone could figure out how to overcome the technical obstacles and make something like that work for DCS (and/or TMCC). It's really frustrating to hear our scale brethren laugh about our incompatible and unavailable systems.
I get the ergonomic angle of the handheld over the phone. With my lousy eyesight though I can’t see the screen with the handheld. The app was a huge improvement for me. It was like mainframe versus webpage better viewing.
@H1000 posted:The current TIU/WIU combo does, I don't see why they would remove that functionality with WTIU.
So a large layout currently using 3 TIU's would need 3 WIU's and when using the WiFi mode they would be controlled automatically as if they were in Supermode. Correct?
While that works for folks using the variable ports, what about those with the Z-4000 plug-in adapters for voltage control? Is there anything to do that? Thanks.
@BobbyD posted:So a large layout currently using 3 TIU's would need 3 WIU's and when using the WiFi mode they would be controlled automatically as if they were in Supermode. Correct?
This is correct. The WIU's would need to be all connected to the same Network so that they can communicate in super mode. This doesn't require any special networking equipment, it can be done between the WIU's themselves if needed.
@BobbyD posted:While that works for folks using the variable ports, what about those with the Z-4000 plug-in adapters for voltage control? Is there anything to do that? Thanks.
Currently there is no way to control the Z4K receiver module with the app. MTH R&D eluded earlier in another thread that they are working on a new Z4K receiver to allow this ability but I'm sure it will be a while before we see such a device hit the market.
