How can Lionel's ES 44ACs be converted to 2 rail? We in the 2 rail O scale world desperately need newer 21st century locomotives on our layouts.
These ES44ACs are VERY well detailed and look fantastic. I would love to have two of these.
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Curtis,
Have you already acquired those Lionel ES44AC models?
I ask because I considered getting a Lionel ES44AC models in the past for conversion to 2-rail, but after reading posts on these forums, I understood that unlike MTH, Lionel's tooling wasn't very flexible or Lionel wasn't interested in having road-specific details for these models. I didn't want to preorder a Lionel ES44AC based on just an artwork in a catalog.
It felt like if all the planets were aligned, 1 of the Lionel offerings would match the prototype while most others would have incorrect road-specific details.
The real ES44AC have road specific variations.
Some have the front number boards above the front windshield while other roads have them on the wide-front hood.
Some railroads have the front doors on the left while others have them on the right, some with and others without the glass window on these doors.
Railroads like CSX and Ferromex had the radial truck while railroads like Union Pacific and BNSF had the Hi-Ad trucks.
Then there were details that changed during the build like later Canadian Pacific units being delivered with Hi-Ad trucks instead of the earlier deliveries with the radial trucks or Canadian National ES44DCs that initially had the teardrop front windshield but later went to the more common rectangular windshields like most other Evolution locomotives. MTH did try to capture some of these changes but Lionel seemed to be unwilling.
These are just my opinion,
Naveen Rajan
MTH also make unit with fixed pilots that can run on 2 and 3 rail I have a number of them and love them.
I bought three of the BNSF "Heritage" ES44AC's offered by MTH with scale wheels and fixed pilots. Hopefully I'll get the couplers installed and get them on the rails. Here are a few photos of #6022. They'll operate on AC or DC in conventional; DCS or DCC for command operation; and can run on 2-rail or 3-rail. The scale-wheel offerings will be hard to find. I'll dig up the part numbers for the ones I have.
@Shawn_Chronister posted:MTH also make unit with fixed pilots that can run on 2 and 3 rail I have a number of them and love them.
Shawn,
I own MTH ES44AC with scale wheels too.
But I had to preorder them before the deadlines as it seemed like MTH was likely to cancel the scale wheel versions due to lack of preorders.
Even though these ES44AC were Proto-Scale 3-2 conversion capable and despite MTH’s 3-rail models being easier to locate, I learnt from these forums that MTH does not sell their fixed pilots for aftermarket 2-rail conversion.
Many years ago, someone on these forums compared MTH and Lionel’s versions of the Norfolk Southern heritage locomotives and Lionel seemed to have better road specific details for Norfolk Southern models only.
Also the Lionel diecast versions seemed to get positive reviews on these forums.
For these reasons I considered Lionel’s versions for 2-rail conversion.
These are just my opinion,
Naveen Rajan
This still surprises the heck out of me why o "scale" doesn't have a Scale Trains, Athearn Genesis, Rapido Trains level of scale modern power like this. The MTH is nice don't misunderstand me on that but it's not anything like what's available in N or HO.
Good question. Could it be that O scalers still prefer the "transition" period? Do they?
Mark in Oregon
@Erik C Lindgren posted:This still surprises the heck out of me why o "scale" doesn't have a Scale Trains, Athearn Genesis, Rapido Trains level of scale modern power like this.
Because the numbers are not there yet to support the production of such products, probably. But anyone that wants to go into business and prove me wrong is welcome to proceed down that pathway.
@mwb posted:Because the numbers are not there yet to support the production of such products, probably. But anyone that wants to go into business and prove me wrong is welcome to proceed down that pathway.
Says a lot about our market as well. 3 rails are ok for a 2 rail world not mentioning the scale issues and gauge. Nevermind I suppose.
I have a couple of Lionel ES44ACs that I am thinking about converting to 2-rail. I haven't done it yet. This will be my general approach if I get around to doing this project.
1. Use Northwest Short Line wheels to convert the wheels. I converted a MTH steam engine using NWSL wheels and it worked well. That conversion was some years ago. Hopefully, NWSL has replacement diesel wheels.
2. Remove the Lionel electronics and convert the engine to battery power. I would need to remove the Lionel electronics anyhow if I want to run the 2-rail engine using DCC or conventional DC. As best that I know, Lionel electronics will not work with 2-rail. Therefore, a battery conversion makes sense.
3. Do the body conversion: 1. Kadee couplers, 2. Fixed pilots, 3. New handrails, 4. Other details depending on the model.
I am sure that this can be done. It is just the a matter of doing it. NH Joe
If you want fixed pilots on the hi-rail versions, a Forum member, Thor73, makes some 3D printed replacement pilot kits for the ES44, SD90 and others. Check "Shapeways".
@naveenrajan posted:Curtis,
Have you already acquired those Lionel ES44AC models?
I ask because I considered getting a Lionel ES44AC models in the past for conversion to 2-rail, but after reading posts on these forums, I understood that unlike MTH, Lionel's tooling wasn't very flexible or Lionel wasn't interested in having road-specific details for these models. I didn't want to preorder a Lionel ES44AC based on just an artwork in a catalog.
It felt like if all the planets were aligned, 1 of the Lionel offerings would match the prototype while most others would have incorrect road-specific details.
The real ES44AC have road specific variations.
Some have the front number boards above the front windshield while other roads have them on the wide-front hood.
Some railroads have the front doors on the left while others have them on the right, some with and others without the glass window on these doors.
Railroads like CSX and Ferromex had the radial truck while railroads like Union Pacific and BNSF had the Hi-Ad trucks.
Then there were details that changed during the build like later Canadian Pacific units being delivered with Hi-Ad trucks instead of the earlier deliveries with the radial trucks or Canadian National ES44DCs that initially had the teardrop front windshield but later went to the more common rectangular windshields like most other Evolution locomotives. MTH did try to capture some of these changes but Lionel seemed to be unwilling.
These are just my opinion,
Naveen Rajan
No I don't want to spend money if I'm unable to do a successful conversion to 2 rail.
@New Haven Joe posted:I have a couple of Lionel ES44ACs that I am thinking about converting to 2-rail. I haven't done it yet. This will be my general approach if I get around to doing this project.
1. Use Northwest Short Line wheels to convert the wheels. I converted a MTH steam engine using NWSL wheels and it worked well. That conversion was some years ago. Hopefully, NWSL has replacement diesel wheels.
I am sure that this can be done. It is just the a matter of doing it. NH Joe
I did not know NWSL made steam engine wheels (drivers)...do tell. 
Mark in Oregon
@Erik C Lindgren posted:Says a lot about our market as well. 3 rails are ok for a 2 rail world not mentioning the scale issues and gauge. Nevermind I suppose.
It does. Takes a paradigm shift in how this scale 2 rail community thinks to make change.....and folks willing to try.
I have attempted conversions on many engines. The MTH 3/2 are fairly straight forward. I stay away from older chain drive engines for example. I don't feel they're in my vision of acceptable performance. I like big consists of engines that work well together. Some bigger Atlas engines work with the MTH ones that I have. I have Atlas switchers on the shelf waiting for my attention.
The newer Lionel look like they have removeable wheels so I thought I'd try one. I bought one and never did it.
I have an older Lionel engine that someone else converted. The trucks mounting are not in the middle. So they tip as the engine accelerates. This causes it to do a wheelie and pop off the rails on turns. So they installed a screw that hits the frame to prevent this. It doesn't work reliably. Some have put a form of a stiff wiper to do this job I've seen.
The Lionel boards need attention to get along with my MTH ones on the same rails. They won't work in the same consists though. The Lionel signal caused havoc on my RR and I never bothered to fix that. I just isolate it on a different loop.
That, and a long list of other work, has kept me from moving forward on another Lionel conversion. Just mounting the pilots and couplers looks like an effort. Maybe the newest Lionel is better for this conversion??
The sideframes on those MTH diesels stick way too far out. Mike Pitogo had a fix for that some time ago.
- Crank
@Eccentric Crank posted:The sideframes on those MTH diesels stick way too far out. Mike Pitogo had a fix for that some time ago.
- Crank
The trick was simple, but required a great deal of precision because of the brake shoes on the side frames. Simply drill new mounting holes on the side frame lugs, then file/cut the tabs down. It pulls the frames in and if done correctly, the brake shoes won't touch the wheels and short out. My thought, which would require more work, would be to grind the shoes slightly and place thin styrene or Mylar onto the shoes (like real shoes) to further insulated the shoes. I'm lazy, though, and decided to live with them as is since it isn't really that visible when the locomotive is moving.
@Eccentric Crank posted:The sideframes on those MTH diesels stick way too far out. Mike Pitogo had a fix for that some time ago.
- Crank
There is an upside to failing eyesight! 
I left HO because of it.
@Erik C Lindgren posted:This still surprises the heck out of me why o "scale" doesn't have a Scale Trains, Athearn Genesis, Rapido Trains level of scale modern power like this. The MTH is nice don't misunderstand me on that but it's not anything like what's available in N or HO.
Unfortunately, this too is another reason some of the younger modelers are going to the smaller scales. Besides the fact there simply are more choices in general. As I have said before you can take an HO or N scale engine right out of the box and run it with very few to no modifications as it relates to a prototypical engine, freight car, caboose, etc. The manufacturers of our O Scale products are doing a good job with the models they are putting out but my opinion is that O scale will always be behind as it relates to detail. Even without the fine details that are being offered in the smaller scales our prices are still higher. I can't imagine the price point if Lionel came out with a scale ES44AC with the same detail as a Scale Trains HO scale model.
With all that being said, I'm not complaining because I, like many O Scalers, fully understand that if I'm going to have a more detailed anything, I will have to do it myself. As long as you understand and accept that O scale will work for you. It doesn't hurt to wish/hope but anything more will bring unnecessary heartache and pain.
The bright side is because we can't have it our way right out the box, IMO O scalers are some of the best modelers and scratch builders. This is regularly demonstrated on this site.
Dave
Matt those are very handsome locomotives you obtained.
Ron H
For those interested, here are the MTH stock numbers for the three BNSF Heritage ES44AC's I have.
Steve at Mr. Muffin's Trains has a couple of extra 2-rail MTH units. They operate under DCS and DCC, 2-rail and 3-rail. Check out his post here!
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