2020 PRR E8 color questions? Wrong Color?

Nowak photo. The first three E units painted in the cigar band scheme; black, green and gray. The gray won. With black trucks and no side skirts.

I don’t know how many Es made it into the cigar band with their original passenger pilots, but 4041 didn’t make it out of Lightning stripes with one.

NONE of their Es had dynamic brakes and 4041 was delivered with dual steam generators.

Lionel face palmed again.

oh, and the “light” E units that I dumped?  Check below for just how light the dark gray is... compared to Atlas FM Erie-built, MTH PA and even their own PAs.

@Mikado 4501 posted:

I just got an Email from Mr. Muffins, and they have examples of the NYC, Lackawanna, Amtrak, and Frisco to show - so big thanks to them!

The Lackawanna and Amtrak models look great, and the New York Central one looks...okay. Still a bit too light gray IMO, but definitely better than the 2017 lightning stripe versions.

Im not sure if the Frisco model has that much of a pinkish tint in the red paint, but most of the photos I see in the Messenger scheme look fairly close.

I was waiting for these two road names.  I figured the Frisco would be a disaster but I'm surprised to see the red looks pretty close in this picture anyway.  I need to see more pics but I'm still hopeful.  I know there are errors in the gold & yellow, fonts, and font sizes but that's less of a concern to me.  I'm looking at the main color red.

Back when this catalog came out, I figured the NYC was layup.  Now I'm glad I waited.  IMO that gray is a mess.  It should be considerably darker and the trucks should be much darker (almost black).  I wasn't around when these E-units were riding the rails so I'd love to hear some first hand accounts.  I've never seen a picture of a NYC E8 that looks like that.

These pictures are representative of the color NYC E8's I expected to see: here, here, and here.

As I recall, NYC changed the pilots fairly soon in their service light.  I'm not an expert like some on NYC, but they did have preference for the "freight" pilot on E7s and E8s.

It is truly disappointing to see these odd variations on color.  Color mismatches happen to all manufacturers all the time but not on the scale of what I've been seeing on these and on the F3s.  Not sure why this has become such an issue.  These are otherwise very well done locomotives even though I'm not much of a Lionel buyer.

Not trying to steal the thread, but at 3rd Rail we are currently stressing out over the colors for the interiors of the upcoming Viewliners.  Literally colors keep us up at night and we still make mistakes from time to time.  One thing I've learned is that you can sometimes totally blow the details and no one notices.  Make it the color wrong and it becomes a 3 page thread on the OGR forum!

@MikeH posted:

I was waiting for these two road names.  I figured the Frisco would be a disaster but I'm surprised to see the red looks pretty close in this picture anyway.  I need to see more pics but I'm still hopeful.  I know there are errors in the gold & yellow, fonts, and font sizes but that's less of a concern to me.  I'm looking at the main color red.

Lionels Frisco E8 looks too pink:  

@RickO posted:

Lionels Frisco E8 looks too pink:  

I know!  I’m trying really hard though.  I want those.  With the NYC’s, I can wait for another catalog or two.  But now that MTH is gone, I may be in grave before Lionel does another Frisco E8.  And I’m in my 40’s!

@GG1 4877 posted:

One thing I've learned is that you can sometimes totally blow the details and no one notices.  Make it the color wrong and it becomes a 3 page thread on the OGR forum!

Guilty!  I’m no rivet counter but if the color is off, the thing will just stare at me.

@MikeH posted:

These pictures are representative of the color NYC E8's I expected to see: here, here, and here.

I hear ya...

what kills me is the NYCSHS posts what the colors are to the public...

https://nycshs.org/nyc-colors/

@Mikado 4501 posted:

I just got an Email from Mr. Muffins, and they have examples of the NYC, Lackawanna, Amtrak, and Frisco to show - so big thanks to them!

The Lackawanna and Amtrak models look great, and the New York Central one looks...okay. Still a bit too light gray IMO, but definitely better than the 2017 lightning stripe versions.

Im not sure if the Frisco model has that much of a pinkish tint in the red paint, but most of the photos I see in the Messenger scheme look fairly close.

Noticed every E8 from the catalog is on this form except for the Southern Version. I posted mine on a separate topic but I’ll post here just in case anyone missed it. What are everyone’s thoughts on the Southern Version? I think it looks good but I could be missing something.

@LionelLegend posted:

Noticed every E8 from the catalog is on this form except for the Southern Version. I posted mine on a separate topic but I’ll post here just in case anyone missed it. What are everyone’s thoughts on the Southern Version? I think it looks good but I could be missing something.

Southern looks fantastic to me.  And if it looks good to you, that’s what counts!

Hang on guys....I just found the prototype engine that Lionel used for the PRR paint color....

The Frisco units should have gold lettering (not yellow!!!) to match the gold striping. The red is not supposed to be cherry red either.. Yikes...

I just can understand why Lionel has to accept these engines or any thing else from the contractor knowing they are incorrect. If China contractors have that much control over things then it’s doomsday for the hobby. It’s a shame that a 120 year old company could cease to exist as a result.

@romiller49 posted:

It’s a shame that a 120 year old company could cease to exist as a result.

Yeah, it stinks.  With apologies to Atlas, this is it.  Lionel is the only game in town.

The challenge is the sub-contractors that do build these items don't have to have that much control over things.  We haven't seen this level of paint variations from any of the other manufacturers.  When we do we argue over shades of difference, not flat out wrong colors.  Sounds like an internal QC issue stateside more than anything else.  It really appears to be be lack of oversight of what happens at the factory. 

Jonathan, I hope you are correct. If so then the issues can be corrected as soon as the top dog is replaced.

I believe it was mentioned when MR departed Lionel that he was a"train guy". You have to have at least one "train guy" in the production/QC dept that gives a "hoot".

Its been my impression that the current staff is more electronic toy manufacturers, than "train people".

Since that top dog is an investment company, good luck replacing it, unless of course. They stop making money.

Having said that. Most of the colors Lionel has been making mistakes on, are colors they've gotten right on previous runs of the same offerings, so there really is little excuse.

@MikeH posted:

Southern looks fantastic to me.  And if it looks good to you, that’s what counts!

Yeah... I’m sorry to say the Southern units have the wrong pilots.



The Lionel ones have Passenger pilots...

I’m sorry.

I remember when those Southern units ran on the NY&LB in full Southern Paint after the Crescent fully went to Amtrak in 1979.  Some of the few units that were not of PC heritage on that line.  A nice splash of color prior to NJT going "Disco" in 1982.  Not on topic, but still train related.

@CentralFan1976 posted:

Yeah... I’m sorry to say the Southern units have the wrong pilots.

The Lionel ones have Passenger pilots...

I’m sorry.

I'm not in the market for a Southern so it don't make me no never mind.  I don't know my pilots.  What's the difference? 

@CentralFan1976 posted:

Yeah... I’m sorry to say the Southern units have the wrong pilots.



The Lionel ones have Passenger pilots...

I’m sorry.

Oh well I’m not super picky about that. Mostly just didn’t want to color to be off by a lot. What is the difference in pilots?

@MikeH posted:

I'm not in the market for a Southern so it don't make me no never mind.  I don't know my pilots.  What's the difference?

Rusty

Passenger vs. freight pilots is more of a modelers term based on EMD history.  E-units have always been associated with slab style pilots that continue the slope of the nose to the bottom while F-units typically had a pilot that curved inward just at the base of the anti-climber before flaring out again.  Railroads had their own preferences but my guess is that if the locomotive collided with an object the F unit style pilot may have done a better job of keeping the object from climbing up the nose to protect crews.  Hot Water knows the true answer.  Here are some examples:

Note the slab pilot on this Amtrak E8 of UP heritage.  The original slab pilot is intact.  This is often called a passenger pilot.

This New Haven FL9 shows the curvature of what is commonly called the "freight" pilot.

A good comparison side by side with a Weaver E8 with the "passenger" pilot next to a 3rd Rail Amtrak FL9 with the "freight" pilot.

Proof that there are exceptions.  The FP7 was delivered for the most part with a "passenger pilot", but as I recall it was a customer option from EMD. 

PRR in general had a preference for the "passenger pilot" on freight units as well as evidenced by this standard F7. 

And the opposite preference as shown on these Santa Fe FTs and E8m's that were former E1s rebuilt into E8s in the early 50's.

@RickO posted:

Since that top dog is an investment company, good luck replacing it, unless of course. They stop making money.

I’m not talking about the investment company. I’m talking about the guy running Lionel at the present. His initials are H. H. It’s his job to institute a Quality Improvement Process.

Well, you guys keep buying the BTO stuff. I have said time and time again stop ordering BTO. Do you do it, no.

Maybe one day you guys will learn.

Dave

Dave, who bought it?  We're talking about NOT buying it after we saw the pictures.

@david1 posted:

Well, you guys keep buying the BTO stuff. I have said time and time again stop ordering BTO. Do you do it, no.

Maybe one day you guys will learn.

Dave

Isn’t it a conundrum? If no one pre-ordered a particular model would not the model get cancelled?

@Hudson J1e posted:

Isn’t it a conundrum? If no one pre-ordered a particular model would not the model get cancelled?

That is correct.  Without BTO we would not have access to the higher end and more accurate kinds of trains many of us have an interest in.  They won't be available on the secondary market sometime down the road because they would not have been built.

The issue is not BTO, it is simply QC and the lack thereof on the part of one manufacturer at the moment.  Hopefully it is just a period the company is going through.  BTO benefits the buyer because they get access to locomotives and cars that would not otherwise ever make it to the market.  BTO benefits the manufacturer as they build the quantity required so everyone who wants one gets one.  It lowers their financial risk where in this day and age, inventory on hand could make the difference between being in business or not.

Business is often over the heads of many, including me at times!

Well, I just opened up my PRR E8's. Fed Ex delivered them last evening from Charles Ro.

I like them. I owned enough PRR passenger equipment in the last 65 years to see the color is way off. Other than the Neil Young "Trailblazer" set, I do not own any other PRR equipment. I bought the E8's to help pull my 8 car Conrail inspection train. I got tired of waiting for another dark green Conrail E8 engine that matches the set. I think it looks good in the consist and I plan on keeping them.

Lighting is overhead flood, LED "Daylight" in my basement.

As an added bonus, both units actually work as advertised "out of the box". For me that is a bonus.

Donald

@3rail posted:

Well, I just opened up my PRR E8's. Fed Ex delivered them last evening from Charles Ro.

I like them. I owned enough PRR passenger equipment in the last 65 years to see the color is way off. Other than the Neil Young "Trailblazer" set, I do not own any other PRR equipment. I bought the E8's to help pull my 8 car Conrail inspection train. I got tired of waiting for another dark green Conrail E8 engine that matches the set. I think it looks good in the consist and I plan on keeping them.

Lighting is overhead flood, LED "Daylight" in my basement.

As an added bonus, both units actually work as advertised "out of the box". For me that is a bonus.

Donald

Glad you're happy with them.  It will be a personal preference I'm sure.  This picture makes them look IMO a little more correct than some I've seen.

Enjoy them!

@Slipskull posted:

I'm really torn on if I should return it. Lionel did a really nice job with the details on these locos. They have the ditch lights and the correct fan configuration to match the Juniata terminal E8s. I don't think anyone has add those details before (correct me if I'm wrong). Has anyone re-painted there locos before?

Thanks for posting the E8 pictures. I’ve held off on ordering for the moment - what did you finally decide. I may hold out for the E7 units in 2020v2, but no guarantee on their color either!

@romiller49 posted:

I’m not talking about the investment company. I’m talking about the guy running Lionel at the present. His initials are H. H. It’s his job to institute a Quality Improvement Process.

Agreed!!  I'd like to see Lionel focusing a bit less on marketing and more on engineering and quality of manufacturing.  With MTH about to slip beneath the waves, the field is a bit less crowded.

Not that I expect that to actually happen, though. 

George

@TrainDoctor posted:

Thanks for posting the E8 pictures. I’ve held off on ordering for the moment - what did you finally decide. I may hold out for the E7 units in 2020v2, but no guarantee on their color either!

Still have them. I’m not sure what I’m going to do. I plan on doing a lot of work to them like adding second sound unit, fixed pilots and kadee couplers, but never had plans to repaint them.

It might not have been a huge problem if I was going to weather them heavily but these locos are almost never dirty. I guess I’m hoping someone will repaint them. I really wanted the locos because they still fit in a modern themed layout.

@Mikado 4501 posted:

I just got an Email from Mr. Muffins, and they have examples of the NYC, Lackawanna, Amtrak, and Frisco to show - so big thanks to them!

The Lackawanna and Amtrak models look great, and the New York Central one looks...okay. Still a bit too light gray IMO, but definitely better than the 2017 lightning stripe versions.

Im not sure if the Frisco model has that much of a pinkish tint in the red paint, but most of the photos I see in the Messenger scheme look fairly close.

Oh man, that yellow lettering on the Frisco is so wrong.  How did that happen?

@RickO posted:

Lionels Frisco E8 looks too pink:  

Compare this to what Lionel did.  Wow, not even close.

MTH did a pretty good job with the later (yellow accent) Frisco paint scheme the first time they issued it.  Their reissue had the wrong font on the cab.

I can confirm the B&M E8 is a little bright (not as bright as the photo depicts). Whats funny is the baggage car looks like the right color. All in all its a great looking set. Newly tooled passenger cars have some big capacitors.

@RickO posted:

"You have to have at least one 'train guy' in the production/QC dept that gives a 'hoot'."

"Its been my impression that the current staff is more electronic toy manufacturers, than 'train people'."

"Having said that. Most of the colors Lionel has been making mistakes on, are colors they've gotten right on previous runs of the same offerings, so there really is little excuse."

It is simply astonishing how many production issues Lionel has, especially with items previously produced correctly yet the current models are disasters with wrong colors,  whistle sounds, etc.

Like these 2019 Legacy PA's with an F unit roof paint job even after they had produced them much more accurate in 2003 with TMCC. Also the yellow is different than even the 2018 F-3. They did the sides in stainless but not the roofs and for some unknown reason did a white border around the illuminated side number panel. Simply baffling. Plus these came with the unfortunate reset to "Engine 1" feature each time you turned the power off.