2025

You can use the 22 gauge wire for most rewiring needs.

Larry

TrainLarry posted:

You can use the 22 gauge wire for most rewiring needs.

 

Larry

When you say most wiring needs, do you mean everything besides the smoke unit? 

Ex: collector to E unit, E unit to brushplate, headlight? 

Essentially everything, if it needed done that way?

Yes, it is used for all wiring needs. Only the replacement 'E'-unit contact wires are thinner, but they work.

Larry

Ok thanks. Like I said this is driving me nuts. But it's coming together slowly. 

Comming of the roller should be at least as large as the smoke unit wire,  and  motor/light or e-unit wires combined. (use common sence on which combo concerns you)

Double small wire if it is all you have and want to "get er dun".

Roller wire size must be large enough to handle the max amps ever used.

Overkill is better than too light.

  Also take into account how well your chosen wires insulation will do with the extra heat of the smoke unit and motor/ frame, as well as it's abrasion resistance from the shell/frame. It isn't cloth wire in places just because it is old. Cloth is used often because of high heat or abrasion is expected.

Adriatic posted:

Comming of the roller should be at least as large as the smoke unit wire,  and  motor/light or e-unit wires combined. (use common sence on which combo concerns you)

Double small wire if it is all you have and want to "get er dun".

Roller wire size must be large enough to handle the max amps ever used.

Overkill is better than too light.

  Also take into account how well your chosen wires insulation will do with the extra heat of the smoke unit and motor/ frame, as well as it's abrasion resistance from the shell/frame. It isn't cloth wire in places just because it is old. Cloth is used often because of high heat or abrasion is expected.

I see so 20 or 18 for the collector would be sufficient? I only mentioned 22 because of the original wire

I'm not even sure where to get cloth insulated wire. 

AVR conductor posted:

I'm not even sure where to get cloth insulated wire. 

I've been hoarding it for 30 years.

It's available in lamp cord for restorations.

ADCX Rob posted:

AVR conductor posted:

I'm not even sure where to get cloth insulated wire. 

I've been hoarding it for 30 years.

It's available in lamp cord for restorations.

Where can it be bought at? 

Here it is, but like I said, it's lamp cord(18 gauge).

You can get cloth covered wire from most of the lionel parts dealers. Train Tender gets 50 cents a foot. 

I believe Lionel used 22 gauge wire for pick-up to E-unit. I don't  see the need to go heavier. (20 is heavier than 22, 18 is heavier than 20, and so on)

Since it is Christmas season, if you have a string of lights that do not work and you don't want, you can probably cut some wire from the string and use that.  It really does not matter what you use, new, old, color what ever.  Some people are interested in keeping things close to original including using the original style cloth covered wire.  I'm like that and I know others on here are as well.  You don't have to do it that way, it's really up to you, your trains you know! You do want to use the super flexible stranded wire for the center roller pickups on tenders, cabooses operating cars etc since they do flex at every corner. 

   I use cloth where it performs. Even some stray and oversized sheathing over plain insulation usually does what's needed. Siliconed in place on the wire if needed.

  You can also salvage it from inside of fans, coffee makers and other vibration prone or heat oriented household items.

On the gauge; I guess my real point is: if in doubt, going larger is nearly always safer.

    Look at your wire like it's a fuse you never ever want to burn out, because that's what it will burn like if overloaded, only slower. (a fuse is just very highly predictable wire)

Hey guys thanks for the replies. I wish I could've been more involved the conversation but work got in the way. I finally have a break though

Most know the ropes well enough to wait it out. Sometimes months go by 

At least you didn't have to bug them to take the time lock off the thread 

This is true, 

From the Lionel Engineering Standards, in the early post war years they used #24 solid push back wire.  It is rubber insulated with a fabric jacket. With push back insulation the rubber is not adhered to the conductor. The wire is cut to length, but not stripped. The insulation is just pushed back up the wire, the solder connection is made, and then the insulation is pulled back down the wire up to the joint.  

The smoke units used #22 stranded wire with 7 X 30 stranding. The insulation was Vargas silicone insulation. I am assuming that this is a fiber glass fabric with a silicone resin binder.   

When they moved to vinyl insulated wire, the conductor was still #24.  The stranding was 42 X 40 or 7 X 32. 

Recently someone has made the rubber insulated, fabric covered push back wire available for toy trains. Many of the parts and light bulb dealers have it. It is very easy to work with and comes in red, green, yellow and black.  There is also a super flex fabric covered wire.   Many of the original fabric covered wires were color coded, but the carbon in the rubber has stained it all black. Some times the color can be seen at the end of the wire where the fabric was loose and not in contact with the rubber.  The color codeing is normally yellow for connections to the brush holders, green for field connections, and power was black. The use of red appears to be inconsistent.  When two motor locomotives were introduced and the brush holder connections had to be the correct orientation to get the two motors to run the same direction, one of the brush holder wires was changed to blue.  But this occurred after the insulation was changed to vinyl, except for the earliest F3s. 

David Johnston posted:

From the Lionel Engineering Standards, in the early post war years they used #24 solid push back wire.  It is rubber insulated with a fabric jacket. With push back insulation the rubber is not adhered to the conductor. The wire is cut to length, but not stripped. The insulation is just pushed back up the wire, the solder connection is made, and then the insulation is pulled back down the wire up to the joint.  

The smoke units used #22 stranded wire with 7 X 30 stranding. The insulation was Vargas silicone insulation. I am assuming that this is a fiber glass fabric with a silicone resin binder.   

When they moved to vinyl insulated wire, the conductor was still #24.  The stranding was 42 X 40 or 7 X 32. 

Recently someone has made the rubber insulated, fabric covered push back wire available for toy trains. Many of the parts and light bulb dealers have it. It is very easy to work with and comes in red, green, yellow and black.  There is also a super flex fabric covered wire.   Many of the original fabric covered wires were color coded, but the carbon in the rubber has stained it all black. Some times the color can be seen at the end of the wire where the fabric was loose and not in contact with the rubber.  The color codeing is normally yellow for connections to the brush holders, green for field connections, and power was black. The use of red appears to be inconsistent.  When two motor locomotives were introduced and the brush holder connections had to be the correct orientation to get the two motors to run the same direction, one of the brush holder wires was changed to blue.  But this occurred after the insulation was changed to vinyl, except for the earliest F3s. 

That's very good to know. Thanks for the info

batt is gonna die......quick. note 24g solid is larger that 24g stranded. Strands have air gaps, solids do not.

It is rubber insulated with a fabric jacket. With push back insulation the rubber is not adhered to the conductor. The wire is cut to length, but not stripped.

I never noticed any rubber insulation on the push back wire Lionel used, or any of the push back wire I've purchased myself, old or new. Are you certain about the rubber?

On the old wire it is the rubber layer that gets hard, cracks, and falls off. In looking at the new wire it looks like a fiber layer against the conductor, then it looks like there was a thin layer of plastic either sprayed on or extruded on.  The cloth coating was applied over that while is was still wet or tacky. The exterior fabric layer does not look like it was even woven, more like a frock that was pressed into the tacky plastic layer. There were wires with just cloth covers, but I think they were mostly for special purposes.  When winding armatures the wire is covered with a cotton cloth and then wound with cotton tape, probably synthetic  these days.  This is them dipped into varnish, which soaks into the cotton, and was baked hard. When magnet wire was cloth covered, I think the intention was that the turn to turn voltage was very small so a great deal of insulation was not needed.  

Ive seen big motors (industrial 1/2 hp?) wound with flat cloth being the only insulation. All my prewar has varnish or lacquer on it at least, and no cloth.

I think my Jefferson Midget power supply has the cloth type fully emedded in ....?   It seems to be a milky/clear epoxy... varnish maybe?

Adriatic posted:

Ive seen big motors (industrial 1/2 hp?) wound with flat cloth being the only insulation. All my prewar has varnish or lacquer on it at least, and no cloth.

I think my Jefferson Midget power supply has the cloth type fully emedded in ....?   It seems to be a milky/clear epoxy... varnish maybe?

Pretty neat how like everything else, that's evolved too