384 with black wheels?

William 1 posted:

There is a pretty nice 384 with green stripes and copper trim on the bay right now.  Price notwithstanding, it has black wheels.  The seller says it appears all original, but my Greenberg reference book shows all 384s with red wheels.  Is or was, there variations like this?  In my short time enjoying standard gauge trains I have seen a few things that aren't 'in the book'.   Maybe they used black spoked wheels at the end of a run?  Or are they all replacements?  Nice looking little chooch, black wheels and all.  I love my all black 384.  Its got red wheels, and is a honey.  Out pulls my 392 two cars to one.

Probably late '30s Lionel replacement wheels (if embossed "Lionel Corp." on the wheels' backsides)  that were offered by their repair/parts department. These late wheels were commonly painted black. Still original, but not initially as the loco left the factory.

Ron M

This is what I understand as well. I recall that the black coating was to keep moisture exposure down, preventing swelling of the wheels.  I have seen a lot of 80 year old black wheels is perfect shape.... must have worked.

Lionel did a run of standard gauge wheels in 1950. I will try to dig our the paperwork sometime today.

I really like the 384 with the 384T tender.  Good little motor scooter.  That guy is a pretty nice green stripe one with brass trim.  I really like black with brass trim.  Nice engine, but I just 'indulged' in a couple 500 freights.   Fun hobby, playing with 90 year old toys.  It never gets 'old'.

Here is the 1950 letter from Lionel offering replacement Standard Gauge wheels.

So, you have the original letter, of which you are proud of. Sweet!  Thanks a million for sharing that.  I bet a lot of other guys appreciate it as well.

Neat info...wonder if they made them or got them from Madison Hardware

Rob English posted:

This is what I understand as well. I recall that the black coating was to keep moisture exposure down, preventing swelling of the wheels.  I have seen a lot of 80 year old black wheels is perfect shape.... must have worked.

Rob,

It wasn't the paint that corrected the problem, but maintaining the purity of the die-casting material. Mario Caruso, from a cost saving view, had the shop reusing the sprues and scrap metal by putting them back into the melt, thereby contributing to the degradation of the alloy. Discontinuing this practice corrected the problem,

Ron M

More neat info and greatly appreciated.  Just extrapolating for fun.  So, the 384 with green stripe may have been originally produced at this time with inferior wheels, and the black wheels were offered as a replacement to solve the problem.

ron m posted:

Rob English posted:

This is what I understand as well. I recall that the black coating was to keep moisture exposure down, preventing swelling of the wheels.  I have seen a lot of 80 year old black wheels is perfect shape.... must have worked.

Rob,

It wasn't the paint that corrected the problem, but maintaining the purity of the die-casting material. Mario Caruso, from a cost saving view, had the shop reusing the sprues and scrap metal by putting them back into the melt, thereby contributing to the degradation of the alloy. Discontinuing this practice corrected the problem,

Ron M

Ron, The wheels did not swell solely of their own accord.  Moisture and heat (from operating ) exacerbates the deterioration that is derived from the impure alloys. The paint/coating helps reduce the moisture component. Diecasting procedures helped the underlying metallurgy issues.

CW, I forgot about the 1950 production...Thanks.

More neat info and greatly appreciated.  Just extrapolating for fun.  So, the 384 with green stripe may have been originally produced at this time with inferior wheels, and the black wheels were offered as a replacement to solve the problem.

Just so William1

William 1 posted:

There is a pretty nice 384 with green stripes and copper trim on the bay right now.  Price notwithstanding, it has black wheels.  The seller says it appears all original, but my Greenberg reference book shows all 384s with red wheels.  Is or was, there variations like this?  In my short time enjoying standard gauge trains I have seen a few things that aren't 'in the book'.   Maybe they used black spoked wheels at the end of a run?  Or are they all replacements?  Nice looking little chooch, black wheels and all.  I love my all black 384.  Its got red wheels, and is a honey.  Out pulls my 392 two cars to one.

They are Lionel service replacements.

Tin

As an interesting side-note, the tooling to make the replacement 390 wheels was still in existence as of the early 2000's.

It was a four-cavity tool, and to my knowledge, was the only Standard Gauge die-cast tooling to survive.

If I remember correctly, it was designated as a duplicate tool, meaning it was a second tool created either later in the Standard Gauge era, or was actually created just to run the replacement wheels.

TRW