397 coal loader uneven loading action

To all,

I did go down and play with the loader a little bit. An interesting thing I found if I put light finger pressure on the front of the scoop pushing back towards the rear on the side that does not load the coal  well it starts working better and the coal will start going up towards the back. I'm talking LIGHT pressure.

Its' almost like the side that's not sending the coal up the shoot is not getting enough pressure to give a good recoil effect. I hope I'm making sense. I checked the spring for tension and also swapped the cams around to see if it made a difference and went to the opposite side  .It did not. I also check with a ruler again the location and alignment of the cam followers . They appear to be as close as 1950s tolerance would expect, maybe even a little better

Any thoughts,suggestions or help would really be appreciated!

Again Thanks

You "checked the spring for tension."  The spring, like the rest of your loader, is probably over 60 years old.  It might not provide the tension it did in 1955...

Try the light finger pressure right at the center of the scoop (not off to the side) and see if that also helps move the coal evenly toward the conveyor.  If it does, you might try a new spring.  Part 397-23.

Another thought; the bottoms of the cam followers can get gummed up with a coating of oxidation and crud from the base plate.  Try a gentle cleaning on the bottom of both cam followers, as well as the surface of the base plate underneath.

Again Thanks to all that have been trying to help.

In regards to the coal loader issue I’m working on (see photo) loading on one side. I found an interesting thing thanks to a suggestion from Jeff at the Train tender. He suggested that the loading bin might be warped from age. I took the bin off and put in on a piece of plate glass to check this. I would believe that the bottoms of the 2 cam followers should touch the plate along with the front of the bin. What I found was when the bin was allowed to sit on the plate of glass the cam follower on the side where the coal wants to load was sitting quite a bit higher!  I’m not sure if this could be the issue or not.  Is there a way to un warp the bin or shim it to balance it out?  Hoping to find a way to get this working for the Christmas layout I’m building. Grandpa made the mistake of mentioning it so I’m worried I might be the one getting the “Naughty Coal” this year.  

Any thoughts, suggestions, or help would really be appreciated!

How it sits on a flat table is of no consequences, as the bin 'float's' with the return spring. However it could be slightly warped from the spring over the years. The key is the cams, because you cannot adjust the cam followers any more. If you get frustrated with it you could always box it up and send to me.

Thanks for the reply!

So your recommending replacing the cams instead of trying to file the cam followers? I appreciate the offer of sending it to you but I would really like to try and get it working. It's frustrating at times but it's also fun to learn something new with the help of others. I'm getting back into the hobby after a long time away from it. It's nice to see that their are still hobbyist  willing to help others.            If I can still file the cam  would it be on the side where the coal is bunching at or the side where the coal will not load? If filing the cam follower notch is still an option I would figure it would be needed to be filed at point B instead of A. Is that correct?

See attached. And again thanks for everyone's help

All the Best!

I wanted to say thanks to all that tried to help with this. I'm still confused about which of the cam follower to file. (see above post). I'll put it aside and hopefully be able to sort it out at sometime in the future.

Not the cam follower, but the cam it's self. The cam that strikes last needs to be shortened to match the first. You file the flat side to shorten the curve so both fallow the cams on the tray at the same time. This will take a little trail and error, but will solve the  problem.Both sides. 180 degrees apart

Hi Chuck, Thank you for the reply and clarifying what needed to be filed. I did want to be sure that I'm not installing the cams incorrectly!  I have both cams installed so that the flats are in line with each other. (If i took a ruler with the cams installed on the shaft the notch on left cam would align with the notch on the cam on the right side). If I turn the rod assembly 180 degrees  the same would be found. Does that sound correct? Thanks again!

As usual, Chuck is right.  The answer to your question is yes, when you rotate the shaft 180 degrees, it should be the same.  For correct operation you want both sides of the bin to drop off the cam at the same time otherwise, the coal will creep to one side more than the other.

Hi Dan, Thanks for the reply on this. I just wanted to be sure I had the cams right!                                  An interesting thing I did find out is if a put a .015 shim under the bearing, (shaft support that slides in the base) on the motor side (the side where the coal is piling up) it loads a lot better. By putting in the shim I believe I'm raising the cam on that side. If I'm following everyone's thoughts since raising the cam helps that would be the side that needs to be filed .015 or so.  Its difficult to tell which cam is hitting first. Even at slow speed. I would just leave the shim but I'm concerned that its putting an extra load on the motor since it would be slightly misaligned.  Hope I'm making sense. It's been a LONG time since I have worked on my trains. Again thanks!

There is a rubber flexible coupling between the motor and that bearing.  The motor is mounted to the base with two screws, and the gears in the gearbox are pretty stout.  The flexible coupling is in place to take a beating so the motor doesn't have to.  If in doubt, get a new flexible coupling (part 397-29, available from Jeff Kane @ The Train Tender).

Thanks for the reply. One thing I'm still curious about is which one of the cams would need to be filed? Would it be the side were the coal is going towards? Also I would imagine that I would need to file both sides of the cam flats the same amount to get it to work.  Since raising the bearing .015 with a shim on the motor side helped would that be the High cam? Thanks again !

Good Morning. I was hoping some one may still be able to answer my question  on  whether both sides of the cam flats would need to be filed and if the shim side would be the side that needs to be filed. I went and ran the loader again with the .015 shim  under the motor side  bearing and it does a lot better. It still does migrate that way but both sides now have the coal going up to the top. I believe that this might have to do with the scoop being warped and angling down towards that side even while running. I may still pull it off and light clamp it flat for a while to see if it straightens out   Again thanks to all. I know I have talked to several folks from the forum by email that are watching this post and seeing what ideals come up to get theirs running correctly too. Best Regards!

Using your picture above, the faces of the cam, opposite your blue circle are critical.  As the cam turns the cam follower on the bid rides up then drops that high point on the cam.  That drop is what causes the tray to snap and move the coal up.  You want both side of the bin to drop off simultaneously.  On your bench, push the 2 cams together on the shaft and make sure that the drop off point on both cams are identical.  Turn the shaft and do the same thing to the oppose cams.  Also check that you have minimal play between the shaft and the cams; if the cams have a lot of play, you will get erratic operation.

Hope this helps.

Hi Dan,Thanks for the reply and the explanation on this! I didn't post the photo you mentioned but understand now what to look for.

Do you feel it might help by trying to get the tray to sit a little flatter? I was thinking of taking off the tray and clamping it to sit flat for a while hoping the plastic tray will reset to have both of the cam followers sit flat. It's out quite a bit (About an 1/8" ) from the other side. see photo. Thanks again!

For what its worth, the following taken from the Lionel Repair Olsen CD

Regards to Danr's advise, you don't want both cams even side by side, as the cam followers attached to the frame are not even. And as already discussed, don't strike the cam followers.

Hi to all, Thanks for the replies on this.

I do have a question for Chuck in regards to which cam to file.  It's really hard to tell which cam hits first ,even at very slow speed. If I use the old Lionel recommendation would I file the cam opposite where the coal is piling up? I know they say to tap the cam follower but with the age of the plastic as you mentioned that would be a "no no".

Yes, carefully file the opposite side of the buildup of coal.

Thanks for the reply Chuck  ! Could I get your thoughts (also others) on trying to get the warp out of the scoop? I was thinking about clamping the scoop on a flat surface and letting it sit clamped for a while. Not using any heat just the pressure of the clamps. Have you ever had any luck using this method to unwarp Lionel plastic ? Again thanks to all of you for sharing your expertise to this.

@dad roadie in case your interested I just saw a new listing for a coal loader on the bay at a very low buy it now price which contains a bin. Could have a straight bin???? Either way hope you get this fun accessory running the way it was intended.

Hi Rich, Thanks for the reply .  I currently have the bin off the loader and clamped flat. Don't know if that will help but I plan on leaving it that way for a while to see if the plastic will reform back to a flat state. I also found that the cams do seem to have some play on the shaft. I took some .005 shim stock and inserted it between the shaft hole in the cam and the shaft. It seems to take up the play.  Luckily I have a lot of shim stock from being a string  and percussion repair person for the last 35 years.  I'm still trying to figure out why the placement of a .015 shim under the motor side shaft bearing (the side where the coal is going to) helps a lot without doing anything else.Not totally even loading but a lot better!