3D printing: any future for O scale?

Chris,

3D printing can either make fantastic full-sized print or parts for kits that can be assembled at a company or home.  In answer to your question, the bane of every 3D printer enthusiast: time, reliability, and cost

I work with additive manufacturing at my job and there are printers out on the market that  certainly have the build-plate size to make O-gauge rolling stock. First you have to look at the type of 3D printers that you would want to use, there are many options but I'll give you the 3 most common types (definitions are for those unfamiliar with the 3D printing world):

Fused Deposition Modeling (FDM): This utilizes a thermoplastic filaments which is extruded through a heat nozzle, melting and applying to the plastic layer by layer. FDM are the most common and you can get these printers at relatively low cost (anywhere from $300 an up) but you'll sacrifice detail and you will have to smooth the build since the print layers will show. They do have larger build pate printers which do not cost as much as a SLS or SLA of the same size would. I personally am a huge fan of Lulzbot as they allow the user to customize everything and anything. Not to get too off-topic but with Lulzbot I was able to configure settings and modify the extruder to 3D print metal, ceramic, and nylon. Depending upon the size, FDM can either make one large print or parts that can be assembled.

Selective Laser Sintering (SLS): A high power laser sinters small particles of polymer powder into a shape. The unfused power acts as the support (this is fantastic for complex geometries, interior details, thin wall, etc.). SLS does some amazing prints but from my experience at work, is a royal pain on the best of days. The excess plastic power can make a mess, but the good thing is it sometimes can be re-used depending on the polymer. Personal safety is essential and this I must say that the ultra-fine powder form, it is not good to breathe in (I always wore a full facemask with bayonet-plug filters and sometimes I had to wear a hazmat like suit when emptying the printer). I will admit,  the results are absolutely stunning (Lisa SLS is a great printer). Like FDM, SLS can either make one large print or parts that can be assembled.

Stereolithography (SLA): Resin printers which use a laser to cure liquid resin into hardened plastic. These printers can use a very advanced range of materials and give highly detailed prototypes with smooth finish. SLA is probably the best bet for O-gauge molders as they do not require a lot of modification once you have a detailed design that you can print. A perfect example is the Liquid Crystal Magna printer. It has an approximate build plate size of 20in. x 11in. x 14in which is ideal for a one single print O-gauge freight car. However.... This unit costs ~20k USD + shipping, too expensive for the average model railroader (unless they are independently wealthy). There are other relatively inexpensive 3D printers but they have much smaller build plates and you would need to assemble a freight car in kit form (for example: Form 3L). My guess is the average person will need to print and then assemble something in O-gauge if they go the SLA route. If we are talking about a large company like Lionel or Atlas, they have the capital to invest in the larger printers and can make full-sized, SLA O-gauge models.

Going back to my original statement, time is Achilles heel of 3D printing... time, reliability, and cost

To minimize cots, maximize strength, and cut down on print time a person can play with the fill % and layer thickness of a build.  Sadly, this can only do so much. I had to print out an object about the size of a Direct TV remote and even after all settings were maximized for efficacy, one print took 10 hours. 10 hours the order amount equated to one business week with all 12 SLS printers running 24/7. 

Let's take your example of a gondola or hopper car. We will assume there detail inside, underneath, and on the sides of the model (equivalent to a scale Atlas model) . The more detail something has the longer it will take in the 3D printing world. To cut back on time, they could have each printer making a batch of specific parts. Again, the main shell of the freight car will take a long time to produce. Unlike Injection molding, which makes these shells in large batches, 3D printing is one printer=one shell. This is risky since the longer a print is running, the more likelihood something is to go wrong. The manufacturer then also has to determine the amount of 3D printers to match the current injection molding process. To make a very long story short, businesses care about a ROI. What is the cost of setting up new factory of 3D printers? Can it match or overtake the current manufacturing processes? How is the reliability of these printers? What is the cost for material? Can we reuse material from a bad print? How many more technicians do we need to hire to maintain, fix, and refurbish this new equipment? Etc. etc. etc...

Until 3D printing can match or overtake the current production methods for O-gauge products, I highly doubt we will see it on a mass scale.

As you know, Atlas is doing the small 3D printed accessories. From my experience, those prints take ~10-15 minutes to make and cost about $1-4 in material. After they make back the labor costs of designing these, they will have a healthy profit margin. This is the first step in the transition to O-gauge 3D manufacturing. 

There might be limited run products from small mom and pop stores or individuals who have a knack for these things but I don't expect any large company to start making their detailed freight cars this way anytime soon. My guess is that they will start 3D printing the less detailed RTR sets and see how that works. Once that is mastered and is cost effective, they will move onto scale equipment with the final destination being engines. 

Just my two cents.

Bryce

The newish Chinese UV curable resin printers are both cheap and fantastic. Layer height of 50 microns means that lines are almost imperceptable in finished parts. The print envelope for most of these printers (I have the Creality LD-002R) is about 2.5 by 5 by 6 inches, so a little small for a full sized O shell, but great for truck sideframes, parts like feedwater heaters, diesel fans and the like. And what is really cool, is that it doesn't matter how many parts you load on the plate, it prints the entire plate in one shot, so print duration is a function of the height of the tallest part in the mix. I have done 14 sideframes in one print in standard gauge, about 8 hours. Level of detail is amazing. Printer cost $250. A liter of curable resin, about $30 and does a small mountain of parts.  There are bigger ones (print envelope about 12 by 12 by 15 inches tall) just coming on the market for a lot more money, when the price point drops, I'll be in for one of them.  For now, I do big models on a Creality Cr-10 which I bought about 2 years ago. Probably have 800 hours running on it.

Jim

the Chinese printers are cheap true. Just dont expect too much until you have printed a lot. The software that controls the printer isn't too bad but you need some time to understand how it will work.

large prints can take 10 or 15 hours to print; smaller objects print in an hour or less. It depends on how many layers of 50mu or 100mu you are printing. so a model that is an inch high has a lot of 50mu layers to print.

Also no need to print stuff that is available like Plastruct has like tubes. So just print say a signal head and base use the Plastruct tube to connect them.

The only large media resin printer ( NOW) comes from FormLabs its FL-3L

It has two lasers to print faster sort of.

Bryce,

Excellent analysis of the state of the practice!  

George

Zach Pabis made a shell for the SAL motorcar #2028.  He started in HO and S and I got him to make one in O scale:

The hardest part was making the grille on the top front, had to drill holes and file grooves on the inside surfaces of the openings.  Used a piece of steel wire for the vertical bar and brass wire for the horizontal.

Zach is in school and I'm not sure if he's even making things now, but here's his website:

https://www.shapeways.com/shop...-person-scale-models

I think he said he made this O-scale version on his own printer at home and not thru Shapeways.

Had to do a bit of filling to get some of the filament lines off the model, the rest paint took care of.

I made the frame and used an old set of Weaver trucks from an RS3, not accurate but close.  The shell is pretty sturdy.  Only other issue I had was getting decals, O-scale decals, especially SAL, are drying up.  I made the large stripes and herald myself on my Epson printer, but I couldn't do the name and numbers.  Added handgrabs, horn, and cab interior, and powered by BPRC using a Deltang Rx65b receiver, 11.1v, 2200Mah, LiPo battery, with the on/off switch and charging jack inside the rear door.

I need to spray some flat clear on it but I'd have to remove the windows first.

Model is 18" long, he made it in 3 pieces and glued(?) them together, you can see the separation lines in the photo of his shell that's purple.  He told me he didn't have a lot of the other colors at the time but he did have purple.  I told him, it's going to be painted anyway so make it purple.

I'm pleased with the way it runs.  I had to make a long drive shaft to go between both trucks.  The first time I fired it up and ran around the layout I thought it was going to explode, found out the shaft had a slight bend in it so had to make another. 2nd time was a charm.  Got it pulling my 2 modified Weaver "American Flyer" cars, they were modified to match what SAL had, 1 coach and 1 combine, had to flop some windows around and add doors.

Anyway, O-scale can be done but there are limitations due to size.  Good thing is it can only get better (as in finer detail) in the years to come.  If you have plans for a particular model I think there will be someone who can make it.

@Bob Delbridge posted:

Zach Pabis made a shell for the SAL motorcar #2028.  He started in HO and S and I got him to make one in O scale:

The hardest part was making the grille on the top front, had to drill holes and file grooves on the inside surfaces of the openings.  Used a piece of steel wire for the vertical bar and brass wire for the horizontal.

Zach is in school and I'm not sure if he's even making things now, but here's his website:

https://www.shapeways.com/shop...-person-scale-models

I think he said he made this O-scale version on his own printer at home and not thru Shapeways.

Had to do a bit of filling to get some of the filament lines off the model, the rest paint took care of.

What did you use for fill? This is what's holding me back from printing larger models for the layout. It's the next thing on my to-do list: figure out how to hide those pesky layer lines with an FDM printer. 

Bryce covered everything (killer response!). I think it fulfills a unique roll of being able to produce some real niche items. I also think (based on my experience) that user skill/creativity plays a huge roll in how useful a 3D printer is for anything. You have to be aware of how forces act on your print in use when you print in FDM. That has hindered me in some spots but worked to my advantage in others. I've been at it for two years and I feel like I'm just now being able to predict that sort of stuff a lot better. 

I used mine to 6 print out everything (except the track and cars) for elevated track (the Chicago El).  It was slow in that it took weeks to print all the pieces. Also there were issues of bowing of the parts as the temperature across the lower platter is not uniform (which you can see below).

@G3750 posted:

Bryce,

Excellent analysis of the state of the practice!  

George

You are too kind George! 

Bill,

Didn't really use anything.  The rearend of the model had some significant lines but I sanded/scraped those down flat, any other place that had more than my eye could take were also sanded/scraped.  Surprisingly the paint covered everything well, but I would still call this a 3 foot model for viewing.

Not sure what kind of machine Zach used or what kind of filament, I was pretty amazed at the detail he was able to get, the 2 long louvers on each side even have openings in them.  One other issue I had was getting the front windshield glass in place, took a while  and some cutting and cussing to get the shape just right and glued in place.

Ive been 3D printing Smoke Unit Funnels and brackets for my conversions. You can do more with a printer than an injection mold. 

@BillYo414 posted:

What did you use for fill? This is what's holding me back from printing larger models for the layout. It's the next thing on my to-do list: figure out how to hide those pesky layer lines with an FDM printer. 

Bryce covered everything (killer response!).

Thank you Bill!

Are you using PLA, ABS, or TPU for your FDM?

If you want to smooth out the print layers so they are not visible, use an ultra ultra fine sandpaper. If possible, I would recommend you also make the walls a bit thicker when so you do not loose the strength of the build after you sand it down.

Bryce

Bruk, nice work on the smoke funnel. I recall you did a funnel a while back for a Lionmaster bigboy I think it was, to replace the useless S shaped cast funnel that they originally come with, right? Do you have a picture or two of that project to share by chance?

Thanks,

Rod

@Oscale_Trains_Lover_ posted:

Are you using PLA, ABS, or TPU for your FDM?

If you want to smooth out the print layers so they are not visible, use an ultra ultra fine sandpaper. If possible, I would recommend you also make the walls a bit thicker when so you do not loose the strength of the build after you sand it down.

Bryce

I have been using PLA. It's been great so far. I left a thin black model in direct sun light for a whole day once and that was not so great. But that's been my only problem with it. Are you talking like in the 1000s grit sandpaper? 

I figure I can always change up material as long I have my STLs. 

I was considering trying to dip my models in thin epoxy at one time to smooth them out. I just think it would be tough on real detailed stuff. 

C&O Allan excellent! I know this is an older thread and wish I had ran across this sooner. That is exactly what I have been looking for and have been dragging my feet modelling. Can someone purchase your files?

Lambert Locomotive Works has done a passenger car and is working on some freight cars in O scale.

Jrrxjtw,

All the files are in the 3D section of the forum:

https://ogrforum.com/...-printing-discussion

I'll load the .Stl for for the el today

There is a link to the OGR 3D Project Catalog at the top of every page in this forum.

Check it out, and submit these new projects there, too!

And more coming

Thank you all for your help to the newbie.

I have been modeling and printing 3D models since the MakerBot Cupcake

The Cupcake CNC printer was introduced by MakerBot in March 2009 and was their first commercially-available 3D printer.  You assembled it.  It was the best at the time.

I just tossed mine in the garbage bin as well as it's history.

Since then I have been designing parts for the last 14 years or so.

This was my first and only Tube/filament PLA printer. I next purchased and used extensively the FormLabs 2 resin SLA LASER printer.  I upgraded to the FormLabs 3 and now I have the FormLabs 3+ SLA printer. No print lines UNLIKE the best tube printers, always smooth plastic-like finish on my Formlabs prints.

The FormLabs laser printers and resins are more expensive than the Chinese UV printers.  But as they say you get what you pay for.

Almost all of my designs have been shown on the OGR forum. I have contributed to the OGR 3D Project Catalog.

However, unless you have a FormLabs 3+ printer all of my designs are way too detailed for a filament printer to successfully print.

No argument that FormLabs makes some great printers... but, the gap is narrowing.  I'm looking to upgrade from an FDM printer to a Resin printer... and, the 'non-affiliated' reviews that I've looked at as well as a couple of printers I've seen run up close locally are very, very promising.   Don't look at 8K, 12K etc., look at the pixel resolution on the X-Y axis.  For example the Elegoo Mars 4 Ultra (9K) has the highest resolution in the industry at the moment at 18 microns on both the X & Y axis... and, 0, Nada, No Print Lines!

Dennis

I have an Elegoo Jupiter.

I have yet to get it printing.

the setup compared to the FormLabs  is excruciating.

i have never done any 3-d printing. Was just looking at the printers you guys are discussing. formlabs at $2000+ then elegoo mars 4 ultra at $300. Why the big difference in price

I am sure most on here saw offerings for printings for a  McKeen car. I and someone else on here, at least, put parts together to get a McKeen in our lifetimes.  I need to redo, l substituted for misplaced parts, later found, but the other posted here turned out great.  There was a lot of sanding.  Also heard learn time is discouraging, until that comes down with prices.  Bob Delbridge's SAL model is more complicated than the McKeen body, and also looks great.

Alan,

I briefly looked at the Jupiter because the build volume is huge... but, the 51 micron resolution (twice FormLabs 25 micron) gave me pause.   I had to completely build my Ender 3Pro from parts out of the box.  But, I'm sort of a fix it guy...  building out networks, building my own computers, rebuilding a transmission or replacing the motor in a car is what I kind of have a knack for.

@BillYo414 filament lines are problematic until I saw this video. The process is pretty simple and I think the results are pretty good. The scythe blade is 3 sectioned glued and welded together. Using the glazing prices it was my first shinny metal finish  

https://youtu.be/CxjqQLAy5TU?si=9b2AjlJL2bBGRiK_

@Ohio Jeff posted:

i have never done any 3-d printing. Was just looking at the printers you guys are discussing. formlabs at $2000+ then elegoo mars 4 ultra at $300. Why the big difference in price

My neighbor has the Mars 4 'Ultra' which is 310. (I'm stunned by the quality).  The Mars 4 is 250.  The Ultra model has a metal base and 4 point Leveling... this is a big deal.   Mars 4,  plastic Base... and, swivel ball 2 point Leveling.  One of the big pluses over the past few years is the availability of FREE software to automatically, reliably and accurately generate support structures.  In prior years support structures were for the most part added manually... what a difference a few years make.

FormLabs has always (to my knowledge) had automatically generated support structures.  Their printers are very well built and have complete Auto-Leveling... and, essentially no set-up (plug & play).  If you happen to have any dental implants there is a fairly good chance they were built (printed) on a FormLabs printer.

@Scotie posted:

Lambert Locomotive Works has done a passenger car and is working on some freight cars in O scale.

All Nation has quite a few 3D printed kits available now.  And, there's been body shells for trolleys available off Shapeways for several years now.

Yes, you can eliminate the lines on an FDM print.   For instance, I was able to print flawless traction tires using the ARC & Ironing settings in CURA... no layers, no lines... and, I used a 256 sided circle.  You have to take into account the orientation of the item on the build plate and if it can be printed where the orientation of the visually exposed portion of the item can take advantage of settings like ARC & Ironing.  Of course... these considerations are for the most part moot when using a Resin printer.

@drrxjtw @Dennis-LaRock I have three more years experience now and layer lines aren't so much a concern anymore. I use the arc welder plugin on Octoprint to get smoother curves and it helps. Then using the variable layer heights takes care of the rest. Finally, paint hides the lines. I like the automotive spray primer. I forget what the brand is but it does a good enough job that you have to be nit picking to see layers lines when you're a few feet away.

Sadly I have a good bit of work ahead of me as I just replaced an extruder, hot end, and y axis belts and roller wheels. So a bit of calibration is in order to get back into tip top shape. I can't get a right angle to save my life right now haha

Lionel 3D printed the prototype of their Vision Line N&W Class A. Perhaps 3D printing would be a cheaper and faster way to make new tooling for O-Scale locos and rolling stock. Then we might be able to get some really cool new loco and rolling stock models that we've always wanted. For example, Lionel and MTH did NS SD70ACUs and SD70ACCs a few years ago, but the cabs weren't 100% accurate to the prototypes. Making a new model tooling (especially in O-Scale) is really expensive. 3D printing could also make it possible to get more customized models with road name/number specific details (like BNSF's ES44C4s/ET44C4s with their extra truck sideframe air cylinders, piping, and other parts used for the tractive effort control system on the center axle). Scaletrains makes highly detailed HO and N-Scale locos and rolling stock that even have roadname and roadnumber specific details. We need more of those kinds of details on O-Scale models from MTH, Atlas, 3rd Rail, and Lionel.

HERE'S THE WISH

LIONEL ATLAS MTH provide .stl files for all parts no longer made or available.

Chris, take it from someone who deals with 3D printed pieces of rolling stock, locomotive kits, trucks, and even mechanism frames. 3D printing is democratizing the hobby, and not just with O scale. It's now far easier to bring a one-off or oddball prototype to a production state with far less financial outlay. As the machines get better, and the materials improve? The cost to do it keeps coming down. Only five years ago for me at least, making a 3D printed master to resin cast was the financially viable option. Now it's cost-competitive to just print the whole model.

THE POINT IS.

Lionel, Atlas and MTH you stopped making certain parts BECAUSE it was unprofitable for you to do so.

We understand. You're in this for Fun and Profit, . . . maybe mostly profit.

Got It , WE DON'T Care!

We just want to run your/our trains that are complete without broken stuff.

So being unprofitable to make old, discontinued parts in small quantities and to stock them too; then let us make them.

Please consider providing the part model drawings, computer files in any format so we can create .stl files to 3D print. 

YA-know, I think there is a website on a forum that lists 3D printable files. You can place the drawings or files in there.

@AlanRail honestly, they could sell the STLs cheap and make bank. They could even get greedy and figure out a way to sell license keys for STLs. $10 for 30 days or whatever. It probably wouldn't prevent piracy of the files but it would make them some money.

Obviously I would prefer free as well

Assuming that they have the CAD files, they are an asset and have value... primarily, for future tooling.  One would not want those files finding their way into a competitors inventory.  I imagine that the manufacturers are somewhat pleased that these customer created spare parts are showing up 'here' and elsewhere... alleviating in some small way the shrill voices emanating from the parts departments.

@C&O Allan posted:

I used mine to 6 print out everything (except the track and cars) for elevated track (the Chicago El).  It was slow in that it took weeks to print all the pieces. Also there were issues of bowing of the parts as the temperature across the lower platter is not uniform (which you can see below).

I agree, I think right now the real use of 3D printing is in the scenery and modeling of structures. I have been using my Ellegoo SLA for jsut about everything in the scenery world. You name it and you can probable find a free file on the web to use or modify. I am now getting into making my own files with Blender etc. I have printed some broken rolling stock parts but not an entire care as of yet. My printing plate is just too small. my 2 cents

@Dylan Lambert posted:

Chris, take it from someone who deals with 3D printed pieces of rolling stock, locomotive kits, trucks, and even mechanism frames. 3D printing is democratizing the hobby, and not just with O scale. It's now far easier to bring a one-off or oddball prototype to a production state with far less financial outlay. As the machines get better, and the materials improve? The cost to do it keeps coming down. Only five years ago for me at least, making a 3D printed master to resin cast was the financially viable option. Now it's cost-competitive to just print the whole model.

You're too modest, Dylan.

I have one of his 60-foot Center Beam flat car model kits (sold out) and it printed great. It's going to save me a lot of time and trouble compared to the alternative of cutting down an MTH model (73-foot). I'm getting the materials together to build out the kit, but here's what it looks like: